Ideas on problems starting?
#286
01-16-2018, 01:51 PM
Post Fiend
Ok, I'll check out the rock auto one. The one place in the area that used to rebuild starters has fallen victim to big box stores, and no longer messes with them.
more testing today.
I didn't charge the battery last night as I wanted to see how the new battery and alternator are working. I also didn't pump the gas a few times either. With it being 6 degrees outside, I was cranking for over 3 minutes (not all at one time) without the hard start. As the battery started to drain, I began seeing the problem. At that point, I went out, disconnected coil lead and grounded out, and the problem disappeared. It spun the engine just fine. Reconnected the coil lead and finally got her fired up.
let her sit and idle and warm up, I noticed at first the belt was slipping on the alternator, so I'll have to address that later today with a new shorter belt as mine is maxed out on tension.
On to testing with coil lead grounded out again, I did a series of grounding the coil lead and plugging it back in, every time noticing a hard start when the coil lead was connected to distributor, and not an issue when it was grounded. That should give me solid evidence on something going on with vacuum advance.
vacuum advance measured with vacuum gauge showed 3cm mercury at idle, I'll post a picture in a minute. Also, timing still set at what cam grinder and engine builder said to, 14degrees btdc at idle, with vacuum disconnected, it was all in at 3k rpm 30-32 degrees.
another thing I noticed is that the motorcraft distributor, as you may know is a 3 piece unit, the metal base, the bottom cup plastic, and the top cap, while disconnecting coil lead from distributor cap, I can actually rotate the top cap back and forth maybe 1/2" on the bottom cup plastic, not sure if that's normal, and don't really know how to fix it, maybe duct tape around the two plastic pieces, bottom cup and cap? Is that metal spring clip tension too loose? Or maybe is there an o-ring supposed to go inside the groove on the underside of the dizzy cap to keep everything from easily turning?
i have not ruled out completely wiring or electrical, but not that we have essentially confirmed that even though we fixed many problems, it's time to move on and test other things?
more testing today.
I didn't charge the battery last night as I wanted to see how the new battery and alternator are working. I also didn't pump the gas a few times either. With it being 6 degrees outside, I was cranking for over 3 minutes (not all at one time) without the hard start. As the battery started to drain, I began seeing the problem. At that point, I went out, disconnected coil lead and grounded out, and the problem disappeared. It spun the engine just fine. Reconnected the coil lead and finally got her fired up.
let her sit and idle and warm up, I noticed at first the belt was slipping on the alternator, so I'll have to address that later today with a new shorter belt as mine is maxed out on tension.
On to testing with coil lead grounded out again, I did a series of grounding the coil lead and plugging it back in, every time noticing a hard start when the coil lead was connected to distributor, and not an issue when it was grounded. That should give me solid evidence on something going on with vacuum advance.
vacuum advance measured with vacuum gauge showed 3cm mercury at idle, I'll post a picture in a minute. Also, timing still set at what cam grinder and engine builder said to, 14degrees btdc at idle, with vacuum disconnected, it was all in at 3k rpm 30-32 degrees.
another thing I noticed is that the motorcraft distributor, as you may know is a 3 piece unit, the metal base, the bottom cup plastic, and the top cap, while disconnecting coil lead from distributor cap, I can actually rotate the top cap back and forth maybe 1/2" on the bottom cup plastic, not sure if that's normal, and don't really know how to fix it, maybe duct tape around the two plastic pieces, bottom cup and cap? Is that metal spring clip tension too loose? Or maybe is there an o-ring supposed to go inside the groove on the underside of the dizzy cap to keep everything from easily turning?
i have not ruled out completely wiring or electrical, but not that we have essentially confirmed that even though we fixed many problems, it's time to move on and test other things?
You have a timing issue too advanced, this possibility was brought up multiple times several pages ago. Again why things are done in a logical methodical manner.
Next step.
Pull the distributor cap .
Apply vacuum to the vac advance and release it make sure the Rotor is advancing and returning. Then Check to see if the "E" clip that hold the vac advance arm on the timing plate is there and that the arm is on it's pin.
#287
01-16-2018, 01:58 PM
You have a timing issue too advanced, this possibility was brought up multiple times several pages ago. Again why things are done in a logical methodical manner.
Next step.
Pull the distributor cap .
Apply vacuum to the vac advance and release it make sure the Rotor is advancing and returning. Then Check to see if the "E" clip that hold the vac advance arm on the timing plate is there and that the arm is on it's pin.
Next step.
Pull the distributor cap .
Apply vacuum to the vac advance and release it make sure the Rotor is advancing and returning. Then Check to see if the "E" clip that hold the vac advance arm on the timing plate is there and that the arm is on it's pin.
Yes it was brought up, just didn't want to chase squirrels at the time. I'll check under the cap tonight after I replace alternator belt. Can I use the vacuum line and just suck air through it or will I require more vacuum? I'll post up pictures of how the cap can rotate even when clamped down.
#288
01-16-2018, 02:02 PM
#289
01-16-2018, 02:31 PM
If the armature and distributor are good, I will actually be rotating the distributor to retard timing, say, a couple degrees at a time? That is ignition timing, not engine timing, right? With that being said, I was told use 14-16 degrees initial timing, by going to a lower timing what kind of power/fuel economy/ carb tuning would I sacrifice or have to change? I'm already at the low spectrum of engine builders recommendation, what would cause it to actually be lower? I don't want to jump the gun on assumptions, but I want to understand what's going on. Isn't the factory ignition module supposed to retard at starting? And is the fact that it is showing vacuum at idle a clue as to what's happening? Shouldn't there be no vacuum or pressure from that port at idle. Sorry a million questions, but I don't know how it all works.
i do believe I'm on to something by having a slow start, grounding out the coil lead and a fast crank, reconnecting coil lead and slow crank again. Multiple times I've done this.
i do believe I'm on to something by having a slow start, grounding out the coil lead and a fast crank, reconnecting coil lead and slow crank again. Multiple times I've done this.
#290
01-16-2018, 02:32 PM
Post Fiend
Yes it was brought up, just didn't want to chase squirrels at the time. I'll check under the cap tonight after I replace alternator belt. Can I use the vacuum line and just suck air through it or will I require more vacuum? I'll post up pictures of how the cap can rotate even when clamped down.
The cap should not rotate when installed. Nothing more than 1 MM at most.
#291
01-16-2018, 02:50 PM
#292
01-16-2018, 03:45 PM
Another question, I've seen the debate on ported vs manifold vacuum. Mine is currently hooked to ported, above the throttle plate. That is where the tuner told me to put it and where holley recommends it. Only reason I bring this up is that I've seen debates before on both sides of the argument.
#293
01-16-2018, 03:58 PM
Post Fiend
Another question, I've seen the debate on ported vs manifold vacuum. Mine is currently hooked to ported, above the throttle plate. That is where the tuner told me to put it and where holley recommends it. Only reason I bring this up is that I've seen debates before on both sides of the argument.
Ya that is one of those, Ford/Chev, Apple/Windows things.
There are positives and negatives for both. Pre Emissions GM tended to run Manifold Vac in most applications (most not all) , and Ford ran Ported in most applications (most not all) .
Personally Fords seem to respond better to ported in my humble opinion, I'm sure there are others that will disagree with me.
As for your cap. Make sure the extension is installed correctly it only goes on one way. Same for the cap the cap has a notch that fits on the extensions ridge . It looks like that is broken off the extension piece allowing the distributor cap to turn.. See below pic.
Basically you just want to make sure nothing in the distributor is causing an wanted advance situation leading to a hard start. If it all checks out you will have to check the base timing and possibly back it off.
#294
01-16-2018, 04:16 PM
Extension? Is there like a roll pin to line it up or something? I'm not going to swear to it but those metal retaining clips are the only thing keeping the cap secured to the base, and in relation to itself...I'll keep it simple, I won't change vacuum source. I'll check to see if the vacuum is working on the distributor with the cap off. I know there was no vacuum at idle, so obviously unplugging the vacuum line didn't change idle speed or hard start symptoms. Just to double check...Before I start cranking on the distributor, and adjusting base timing, what you are asking is to make sure the vacuum advance isn't sticking as to advance the engine at starting. Either that or make sure the springs and such are not stuck anywh re wi H free ranbge of motion. If not any of that, I have to retard base timing to get it more retarded at start and hopefully the vacuum advance advances it enough to cause the whole thing to run rough. I know I've read an article showing ford ignition modules retarded timing like 8 degrees at starting, but haven't really seen any evidence on that or ways to prove it, because it's hard to get a timing light on the engine while cranking over.
#295
01-16-2018, 04:18 PM
#296
01-16-2018, 06:14 PM
If the armature and distributor are good, I will actually be rotating the distributor to retard timing, say, a couple degrees at a time? Rotating the distributor is the only way to adjust timing.
That is ignition timing, not engine timing, right? I say they are one in the same.
With that being said, I was told use 14-16 degrees initial timing, by going to a lower timing what kind of power/fuel economy/ carb tuning would I sacrifice or have to change? Engine timing is a compromise of adding the most you can with out causing spark knock and still get power.
I'm already at the low spectrum of engine builders recommendation, what would cause it to actually be lower? See above answer. BTW you can build 2 motors side by side using all the same parts etc. and they may need different timing settings & curves to run their best.
I don't want to jump the gun on assumptions, but I want to understand what's going on. Isn't the factory ignition module supposed to retard at starting? There was a post I think on here where members tested this and found some did not retard when staring. So if you are finding this try a different box or 3 till you find one that will retard on cranking.
And is the fact that it is showing vacuum at idle a clue as to what's happening? Not really. The idle could be too high and the port uncovered opening vacuum to the dist.
Shouldn't there be no vacuum or pressure from that port at idle. If you are sure it is a ported port you are hooked to then you need to check why it has vacuum on it. Idle too high uncovering the port?
Sorry a million questions, but I don't know how it all works. It is OK that is how you learn, ask & do.
i do believe I'm on to something by having a slow start, grounding out the coil lead and a fast crank, reconnecting coil lead and slow crank again. Multiple times I've done this.
That is ignition timing, not engine timing, right? I say they are one in the same.
With that being said, I was told use 14-16 degrees initial timing, by going to a lower timing what kind of power/fuel economy/ carb tuning would I sacrifice or have to change? Engine timing is a compromise of adding the most you can with out causing spark knock and still get power.
I'm already at the low spectrum of engine builders recommendation, what would cause it to actually be lower? See above answer. BTW you can build 2 motors side by side using all the same parts etc. and they may need different timing settings & curves to run their best.
I don't want to jump the gun on assumptions, but I want to understand what's going on. Isn't the factory ignition module supposed to retard at starting? There was a post I think on here where members tested this and found some did not retard when staring. So if you are finding this try a different box or 3 till you find one that will retard on cranking.
And is the fact that it is showing vacuum at idle a clue as to what's happening? Not really. The idle could be too high and the port uncovered opening vacuum to the dist.
Shouldn't there be no vacuum or pressure from that port at idle. If you are sure it is a ported port you are hooked to then you need to check why it has vacuum on it. Idle too high uncovering the port?
Sorry a million questions, but I don't know how it all works. It is OK that is how you learn, ask & do.
i do believe I'm on to something by having a slow start, grounding out the coil lead and a fast crank, reconnecting coil lead and slow crank again. Multiple times I've done this.
I would start at all stock setting for timing & idle speed. Remember when checking timing you must have the idle speed set first, remove & plug the line to the dist. then check/set timing.
If you want to see if the dist. cap is moving on the adaptor, mount the 2 together and put a line thru the 2 so you can see if they move when running. My guess they will not.
Dave ----
#297
01-16-2018, 06:19 PM
Also I think it was posted to check to make sure both the vacuum advance and mechanical advance are not sticking.
If the mechanical weights are sticking out when the motor is shut down when you go to start next time the timing will be advanced.
Same can happen with the vacuum advance also.
Dave ----
If the mechanical weights are sticking out when the motor is shut down when you go to start next time the timing will be advanced.
Same can happen with the vacuum advance also.
Dave ----
#298
01-16-2018, 06:55 PM
Post Fiend
Just for clarification there are 2 types of timing in the engine.
One is Ignition timing that determines when the spark plugs fire in relation to the position of the crankshaft.
And there is valve timing that determines the position of the cam shaft and in turn when valves open/close in relation to the crankshaft.
This is the simplified explanation.
The Distributor is driven by the cam shaft. But ignition timing is adjusted independently of valve timing. Valve timing is fixed by the crank gear/sprocket and the cam gear/spocket. Valve timing can be adjusted with a multi index crank gear/sprocket If equipped the stock style gears are fixed and non-adjustable . This is not done externally and requires partial engine disassembly to adjust.
It appears that you need a new distributor cap adapter (the bottom bit) as the distributor cap should NOT be able to move independently of it it and they should be locked to together.
Once you replace this you will have check your ignition timing.
Chances are this is the issue.
One is Ignition timing that determines when the spark plugs fire in relation to the position of the crankshaft.
And there is valve timing that determines the position of the cam shaft and in turn when valves open/close in relation to the crankshaft.
This is the simplified explanation.
The Distributor is driven by the cam shaft. But ignition timing is adjusted independently of valve timing. Valve timing is fixed by the crank gear/sprocket and the cam gear/spocket. Valve timing can be adjusted with a multi index crank gear/sprocket If equipped the stock style gears are fixed and non-adjustable . This is not done externally and requires partial engine disassembly to adjust.
It appears that you need a new distributor cap adapter (the bottom bit) as the distributor cap should NOT be able to move independently of it it and they should be locked to together.
Once you replace this you will have check your ignition timing.
Chances are this is the issue.
#299
01-16-2018, 08:58 PM
Okay, this is my last question on the matter, how does timing advance affect starting? It sounds silly but the engine isnt "running" at that point when I'm cranking, it would seem to be more of a valve timing issue wouldnt it? I guess I fail to see how "when the spark plug fires the cylinder" has anything to do with the starter not turning over? That seems to affect running, when spark and the timing of when the cylinder fires is more relevant. I'll accept that I'm ignorant to how it works, I mean, I understand the concept, but I'll just accept that it may be a problem and test as such!
#300
01-16-2018, 09:05 PM
Okay, this is my last question on the matter, how does timing advance affect starting? It sounds silly but the engine isnt "running" at that point when I'm cranking, it would seem to be more of a valve timing issue wouldnt it? I guess I fail to see how "when the spark plug fires the cylinder" has anything to do with the starter not turning over? That seems to affect running, when spark and the timing of when the cylinder fires is more relevant. I'll accept that I'm ignorant to how it works, I mean, I understand the concept, but I'll just accept that it may be a problem and test as such!
Disregard, I googled it and am now the expert on the subject. Again, I'll try searching for different motorcraft modules and their timing settings, I figured there would be a way to test them to see if that circuit is working properly? And how exactly would it work? Through delaying pulse to ignition coil?