Intermittent Power Loss
Thread Starter
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Junior User
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 59
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Probably good advice, and it'll give me something to do.
Now you're talking about o-rings, and i'm thinking to send them off to Ohio to be looked at and maybe worked on. I'm not sure anything less would give me peace of mind about the injectors, unless the o-rings were obviously damaged.
What is really waking me up at night is that scenario where there are bits of that turbo wheel running around deeper down in the motor getting intermittently stuck on things. Is that even a possible scenario?
Now you're talking about o-rings, and i'm thinking to send them off to Ohio to be looked at and maybe worked on. I'm not sure anything less would give me peace of mind about the injectors, unless the o-rings were obviously damaged.
What is really waking me up at night is that scenario where there are bits of that turbo wheel running around deeper down in the motor getting intermittently stuck on things. Is that even a possible scenario?
Postmaster
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,195
Likes: 6
From: Medford Oregon
This thread's kind of long, so here's a summary so far.
Problem:
After the first time this problem stopped the truck while driving, it "healed itself" and went a week without failing again.
After that, it got progressively more frequent, but occasionally it can go for an hour or so.
Before the truck stopped the first time, there was some occasional loss of power under load and occasional hard starts when hot. Occasional loss of power sometimes seemed to correlate with rear fuel tank below 1/2 full.
Tests Run, Parts Replaced:
Checked injector outside-valve-cover plugs. All looked OK, but one was missing a clip. It was seated fine, though, and continuity tests passed later. What clip? None on the outside, just inside to the injectors.
Observed that the turbo wheel was chewed up bad. Replaced later. Yes it was, WOW.
CPS replaced. Tried with a non-Motorcraft from O'Reilly's and it made the truck spew white smoke and drop soot from the tailpipe onto the ground. Motorcraft CPS worked fine, but did not fix the problem. Motorcraft from FORD or parts store, where? It should be the dark blue with purple o-ring, Ford dealer OEM only.
Checked resistance from IDM plug. Ohms rose with heat to slighly out of spec, so replaced UVCH. Ohms read fine from IDM plug. Which bank. both?
Compression test passed. All cylinders right at 360 PSI at EOT 115 degF.
Observed that all injectors were spitting oil evenly. When the problem was occurring?
Replaced UVCH. Which one, both?
Replaced stripped plug on HPOP reservoir (note to self: it is Torx, not Allen)
Caused a leak on the thermostat housing removing upper radiator hose to get room to remove stripped plug, so replaced thermostat and re-seated housing.
Checked and re-loomed wiring down front of engine block to CPS.
Got fuel pressure tester. Fuel pressure looks fine at schraeder valve even when the engine is stuttering (50 - 54 PSI).
Rebuilt IPR with new seals. Old seals looked fine, but pigtail and plug were in bad shape. Have new IPR in hand if needed.
Replaced IPR pigtail with one from old UVCH. Decent soldering job -- not just butt connectors.
Re-loomed wiring around fuel bowl.
Scraped FPR screen from inside bowl and blew it out. (note: i have not disassembled the fuel bowl, but an o-ring kit is in the mail)
Installed clear vinyl hose from fuel pump to hard line and observed that bubbles did not appear while the engine was missing. There -were- little pinhead bubbles, but no significant bubbles. Have a video of that if needed.
Removed chip.
Replaced turbo wheel, reinstalled turbo with EBPV delete mod.
Replaced IDM with "tested" used IDM from eBay.
Noticed that MAP readings in Torque never change from zero (or "adjusted zero", meaning the barometric pressure). EBP will rise but MAP never moves. It is very likely that I bumped or laid on a sensor or a wire, but it is not nice to see this after replacing turbo wheel. Don't worry about MAP at this time, no boost while in the driveway.
And now... out of ideas.
Problem:
- Truck starts fine, but will eventually start stuttering/missing.
- While it is stuttering, fuel pressure looks fine at the schraeder valve (50-54 psi).
- While it is missing, Torque Android app shows pretty much normal readings for ICP and InjPW, but IPR % is high at idle (20% at idle is high). ICP and IPR % rise when engine is revved.
- Some of the injector outside-valve-cover plugs can be pulled while the truck is stuttering without making a noticeable change. It seems to move around. For a while, it seemed like it was always the front two plugs that could be pulled without making a change, but now, it's the two passenger side plugs.
- The problem can start immediately, or only after 60 minutes. It does not correlate with EOT.
After the first time this problem stopped the truck while driving, it "healed itself" and went a week without failing again.
After that, it got progressively more frequent, but occasionally it can go for an hour or so.
Before the truck stopped the first time, there was some occasional loss of power under load and occasional hard starts when hot. Occasional loss of power sometimes seemed to correlate with rear fuel tank below 1/2 full.
Tests Run, Parts Replaced:
Checked injector outside-valve-cover plugs. All looked OK, but one was missing a clip. It was seated fine, though, and continuity tests passed later. What clip? None on the outside, just inside to the injectors.
Observed that the turbo wheel was chewed up bad. Replaced later. Yes it was, WOW.
CPS replaced. Tried with a non-Motorcraft from O'Reilly's and it made the truck spew white smoke and drop soot from the tailpipe onto the ground. Motorcraft CPS worked fine, but did not fix the problem. Motorcraft from FORD or parts store, where? It should be the dark blue with purple o-ring, Ford dealer OEM only.
Checked resistance from IDM plug. Ohms rose with heat to slighly out of spec, so replaced UVCH. Ohms read fine from IDM plug. Which bank. both?
Compression test passed. All cylinders right at 360 PSI at EOT 115 degF.
Observed that all injectors were spitting oil evenly. When the problem was occurring?
Replaced UVCH. Which one, both?
Replaced stripped plug on HPOP reservoir (note to self: it is Torx, not Allen)
Caused a leak on the thermostat housing removing upper radiator hose to get room to remove stripped plug, so replaced thermostat and re-seated housing.
Checked and re-loomed wiring down front of engine block to CPS.
Got fuel pressure tester. Fuel pressure looks fine at schraeder valve even when the engine is stuttering (50 - 54 PSI).
Rebuilt IPR with new seals. Old seals looked fine, but pigtail and plug were in bad shape. Have new IPR in hand if needed.
Replaced IPR pigtail with one from old UVCH. Decent soldering job -- not just butt connectors.
Re-loomed wiring around fuel bowl.
Scraped FPR screen from inside bowl and blew it out. (note: i have not disassembled the fuel bowl, but an o-ring kit is in the mail)
Installed clear vinyl hose from fuel pump to hard line and observed that bubbles did not appear while the engine was missing. There -were- little pinhead bubbles, but no significant bubbles. Have a video of that if needed.
Removed chip.
Replaced turbo wheel, reinstalled turbo with EBPV delete mod.
Replaced IDM with "tested" used IDM from eBay.
Noticed that MAP readings in Torque never change from zero (or "adjusted zero", meaning the barometric pressure). EBP will rise but MAP never moves. It is very likely that I bumped or laid on a sensor or a wire, but it is not nice to see this after replacing turbo wheel. Don't worry about MAP at this time, no boost while in the driveway.
And now... out of ideas.
I'll give you a thumbs UP for your perseverance and not quitting attitude
Reps sent ...
Lead Driver
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 7,202
Likes: 1,340
From: Bahstun
my injectors are stock untouched with 305k on them
after doing orings, I had a lot more power since they were worn but never took an IPR before and after reading. my fuel filter was dark and knew it was bad after reading up on here
after doing orings, I had a lot more power since they were worn but never took an IPR before and after reading. my fuel filter was dark and knew it was bad after reading up on here
Thread Starter
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Junior User
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
The only code I get consistently is the one from disconnecting the batteries.. that KAM error.
There were two codes that i was getting pretty consistently, but they went away. They're in the first post of this thread.
The plugs on the outside of the valve covers have plastic retaining clips that keep them in place. One of those is busted off.
There's a photo in this post:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post16871714
These came in the mail, from an Amazon merchant I think. They're in a Motorcraft bag and they have that blue-ish look to them and the o-ring is purple
Nope. I think that is something else to try.
Both.
-----
And thanks again guys... this forum keeps me going on this repair. I'm sure the guys at the diesel shop will have a nice Christmas this year if I give up...
There were two codes that i was getting pretty consistently, but they went away. They're in the first post of this thread.
The plugs on the outside of the valve covers have plastic retaining clips that keep them in place. One of those is busted off.
There's a photo in this post:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post16871714
Nope. I think that is something else to try.
Both.
-----
And thanks again guys... this forum keeps me going on this repair. I'm sure the guys at the diesel shop will have a nice Christmas this year if I give up...
Last edited by truknoob; Feb 27, 2017 at 06:13 PM. Reason: checked color of CPS
Lead Driver
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 7,202
Likes: 1,340
From: Bahstun
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Fleet Owner
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 20,419
Likes: 197
From: AZ
Yeah, don't give up, you have come so far, you'll get it. Last summer mine quit on me and I was bound and determined to get it going myself. At least a half a dozen people said to call so and so, they can help. I didn't want to get caught up in that mess and get ripped off. I'm like Jim, reps sent!
Thread Starter
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Junior User
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 59
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Thanks all for the help.
Now, if I want to work this upcoming weekend, I have a day or so to decide whether to order a set of o-rings or call Jim at Rosewood.
Am I correct in assuming that if they do a rebuild/upgrade that the will come back with fresh o-rings installed?
Am I correct in assuming that if they upgrade the injectors, I'll need to have my Wildman tunes re-burnt?
Now, if I want to work this upcoming weekend, I have a day or so to decide whether to order a set of o-rings or call Jim at Rosewood.
Am I correct in assuming that if they do a rebuild/upgrade that the will come back with fresh o-rings installed?
Am I correct in assuming that if they upgrade the injectors, I'll need to have my Wildman tunes re-burnt?
Lead Driver
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 7,202
Likes: 1,340
From: Bahstun
you don't need your tunes re done yet, it can be done later on once you know all is well
yes they come with o rings
at 110k miles they shouldn't need rebuilding, but an upgrade might be fun depending on wallet size
yes they come with o rings
at 110k miles they shouldn't need rebuilding, but an upgrade might be fun depending on wallet size
Thread Starter
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Junior User
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Thanks for all the feedback and getting me unstuck. I have a plan now.
I'm going to re-check a bunch of stuff that has already been checked, then I'll have the injectors out and send to Rosewood. I called around town to see who would do a flow test and just the flow test was almost as much as Jim's "budget" service, which includes a flow test. I can see why everyone here recommends Jim -- he's great on the phone and the service he offers is unbeatable by a longshot.
Before that happens, this is my todo list:
I'm going to re-check a bunch of stuff that has already been checked, then I'll have the injectors out and send to Rosewood. I called around town to see who would do a flow test and just the flow test was almost as much as Jim's "budget" service, which includes a flow test. I can see why everyone here recommends Jim -- he's great on the phone and the service he offers is unbeatable by a longshot.
Before that happens, this is my todo list:
- Make a boost leak tester and use it to test the MAP sensor. (and, ofc, look for boost leaks)
- Rebuild the fuel bowl with new seals.
- While fuel bowl is out, put in the new IPR.
- Take the plenums out and peek in there just to satisfy myself that there is not a big hunk of turbo wheel bouncing around in there.
- Put all that back together.
- Re-test fuel pressure and air-in-fuel.
- Re-test wiring harness with multimeter.
- Maybe try the third CPS?
- Find someone in Austin with a compatible truck to help verify one or both of the used IDMs. Failing that, maybe send one of the used ones in as core for a new one. In any case, decide which one of the two will remain installed in the truck.
- Get valve covers back off.
- Observe injector oil output while problem is occurring.
- Maybe repeat the compression test.
- Get the injectors out. If seals are obviously bad, put in new o-rings and re-install. If nothing is obviously bad, ship off to Jim at Rosewood (and start deciding whether to upgrade the injectors while they're out).
Lead Driver
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 7,202
Likes: 1,340
From: Bahstun
don't need a leak tester to test the MAP sensor, just your mouth will do
Mince was near the heater core plumbed into a tee next to the passenger intake plenum
make sure you get Genuine Ford Fluid TA-31 RTV Silicone Sealant for the plenums if you remove them and follow directions to a T
Mince was near the heater core plumbed into a tee next to the passenger intake plenum
make sure you get Genuine Ford Fluid TA-31 RTV Silicone Sealant for the plenums if you remove them and follow directions to a T
Cargo Master
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 21
From: Aransas Pass, Tx
If you are ever up in the Tyler or Dallas area, hit me up and we can look it over. I also have several spare parts you could borrow for troubleshooting, including a couple known good IDMs.
Just shoot me a PM or something and we can work it out!
Just shoot me a PM or something and we can work it out!
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Junior User
Joined: Jan 2016
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Thanks for the offer! I might just end up on your doorstep before all this is done...