Pre-Power Stroke Diesel (7.3L IDI & 6.9L) Diesel Topics Only

I finally got a turbo! Now for questions...

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
  #46  
Old 06-05-2016, 06:03 PM
PlumCrazy7's Avatar
PlumCrazy7
PlumCrazy7 is offline
Laughing Gas
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 884
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
The f-superduty has a monster gear ratio that would make a 4 cylinder seem like it ran strong. You need a wheel and a rebuild.
 
  #47  
Old 06-13-2016, 10:09 PM
The_Josh_Bear's Avatar
The_Josh_Bear
The_Josh_Bear is offline
Elder User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Bend
Posts: 867
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Update:

I couldn't keep driving it like that and risk grenading the turbo and my engine.
So I'm back to N/A for a bit.

First of all that vibration I mentioned was real, and bad.
Opened up the turbo to find massive wear on both the compressor and turbine wheels. At least what seems massive to me. In the pictures you can see the edges worn away a lot. I'll try to get side-by side shots to fresh wheels if I can.

Here's the series of events:
1. By turbo from guy who says it runs good and pulls hard.
2. "Inspect" turbo with untrained eye. Side-to-side play? Yes. BUT it doesn't touch the sides, and consensus from other forum posts was run it if no end play, which I couldn't find any. And by hand the shaft spun freely, to boot.
3. Runs like poop and has a vibration at higher RPMs. Can't break 5psi and takes forever to make it.
4. Open up turbo and shaft in places was worn down out-of-round and seriously under spec. I've read that good shafts should be between .4000-.3997". I measured one spot at .3975". (And no the shaft wasn't machined down, the other bearing surface was at .3995 or so)

SO because it virbrated so much the wheels wore down to the point that they didn't touch the sides by hand without real force.

Also, because so much oil was in the intake, it didn't bite into the compressor housing much, the picture is of the worst side and while you can see the streaks with black in them they aren't really big enough to get a fingernail on. And there is no ridge at all where the edge of the wheel began to hit the housing, which surprised me.

So props to the guys that said the wheel is goofy looking, you were right!

Haven't looked at the bearings yet. Was too pissed to keep going last night when I got to the turbine wheel. I assumed wrongly that the turbine wheel would be ok and it was just the compressor. Doh.
 
Attached Images    
  #48  
Old 06-14-2016, 07:58 AM
Shawn MacAnanny's Avatar
Shawn MacAnanny
Shawn MacAnanny is offline
Elder User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Felton, Delaware
Posts: 776
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Well that sucks man, at least you can run NA in the mean time.
 
  #49  
Old 07-24-2016, 01:53 AM
The_Josh_Bear's Avatar
The_Josh_Bear
The_Josh_Bear is offline
Elder User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Bend
Posts: 867
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
I finally got a turbo! Now for questions...

Update:

This is driving me crazy.
Got a brand new R&D CHRA a little while ago and was able to clock the turbo based off my marks from the old one.

Also did the 3" exhaust mod off then housing elbow to 3" DP and into my now fairly goofy 3" into 3.5" into 4" exhaust, haha. That'll get cleaned up later.

(Edit: Timing set with Ferrett to 6* for a week. Now at 8*, almost no difference)

All in all: worst dollar-per HP mod I've ever done, by a long shot. I now have a "better than stock" exhaust housing/downpipe with a brand new R&D CHRA, and this was bolted to a strong N/A engine.
It's still not much faster than N/A. EGTs went down by about 1k. Zero smoke. (EGTs are around 1000* WOT climbing for 1 min)

I have no boost leaks. Possibly exhaust leaks, but many people said they had huge exhaust leaks and make plenty of boost and power.

I feel like this is some sort of sick and rather expensive joke at my expense. I wanted and waited for a turbo for like 8 years and this is it? There has to be something else wrong.

Max boost went up like a whole PSI from before. I sqweak out about 6.5psi at best.

At this point I'm thinking of turning up the fuel to get smoke easily and then trying to find any turbine side exhaust leaks. And maybe the soot will clean up some of them, as I've read a few times.
Other than that I'm out of ideas. I have an old IP that ran fine but leaked, maybe swap that on as a last resort if no major exhaust leaks. Can't imagine it's the IP but it IS a Pensacola Diesel rebuild after all...
 
  #50  
Old 07-24-2016, 07:57 AM
Shawn MacAnanny's Avatar
Shawn MacAnanny
Shawn MacAnanny is offline
Elder User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Felton, Delaware
Posts: 776
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
I have my 93 turbo in my signature at 7psi, and I also have a 96 powerstroke, same gearing, 3 inch down pipe, 4 inch straight exhaust, kn filter, and cts 2 tuner and my idi turbo is just as fast as my powerstroke on the towing setting.

It sounds like maybe your injection pump or injectors aren't up to the task of providing enough fuel.
 
  #51  
Old 07-24-2016, 09:01 AM
The_Josh_Bear's Avatar
The_Josh_Bear
The_Josh_Bear is offline
Elder User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Bend
Posts: 867
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Shawn MacAnanny
I have my 93 turbo in my signature at 7psi, and I also have a 96 powerstroke, same gearing, 3 inch down pipe, 4 inch straight exhaust, kn filter, and cts 2 tuner and my idi turbo is just as fast as my powerstroke on the towing setting.

It sounds like maybe your injection pump or injectors aren't up to the task of providing enough fuel.
If that's the case, wouldn't my EGTs be much lower? Reading on OBN a guy dynoed an otherwise stock 093 pump turned up, 3" elbow, with timing set 8.5+ and made like 210hp/430tq at 1000* EGTs max, and still had the stock exhaust on after the downpipe.

I forgot to mention that I have a ferret and timed it after the latest install, down to 6* BTDC because Racin has said many times the 093 spools better at 6*. Then I bumped it to 8* and I believe he's right, it was a little stronger overall at 6*. Though the EGTs are a bit lower at 8*. Either way not a big change.
Starting to think its the IP...or lots of exhaust leak I can't see due to clear exhaust.
Injectors are pop-tested new old stock stanadyne from Russ/Typ4.
 
  #52  
Old 07-24-2016, 09:05 AM
The_Josh_Bear's Avatar
The_Josh_Bear
The_Josh_Bear is offline
Elder User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Bend
Posts: 867
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Shawn MacAnanny
I have my 93 turbo in my signature at 7psi, and I also have a 96 powerstroke, same gearing, 3 inch down pipe, 4 inch straight exhaust, kn filter, and cts 2 tuner and my idi turbo is just as fast as my powerstroke on the towing setting.
That's awesome.
 
  #53  
Old 07-24-2016, 10:00 AM
Macrobb's Avatar
Macrobb
Macrobb is offline
Postmaster
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,860
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes on 6 Posts
Originally Posted by The_Josh_Bear
At this point I'm thinking of turning up the fuel to get smoke easily and then trying to find any turbine side exhaust leaks. And maybe the soot will clean up some of them, as I've read a few times.
Other than that I'm out of ideas. I have an old IP that ran fine but leaked, maybe swap that on as a last resort if no major exhaust leaks. Can't imagine it's the IP but it IS a Pensacola Diesel rebuild after all...
You have to add more fuel. If you can't create a black cloud by flooring it with the turbo /not/ spooled, you need to add more.
You'll find that you need to carefully control the throttle to not create smoke until you build up some boost, and only /then/ can you floor it.
As it is, you are basically only using it to remove the effects of /losing/ power at higher revs/higher altitudes, same as the stock turbo did. Which is why the ratings were so disappointing.

Turning up the fuel on a turbo engine is much different than a NA engine - with a NA engine, you are looking for light haze at WOT. With a turbo, it's the same light haze at WOT... With your turbo spooled as hard as it can be.

If you have trouble with smoke prior to turbo spooling(i.e. low in the revs, taking off etc), you can invest in an Aneroid like Hypermax's "Smoke Puff Limiter", which will effectively control max fueling based on boost.

Even a "stock" IP should be able to give you a decent level of power, with the screw turned up.
 
  #54  
Old 07-24-2016, 10:16 AM
The_Josh_Bear's Avatar
The_Josh_Bear
The_Josh_Bear is offline
Elder User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Bend
Posts: 867
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
I finally got a turbo! Now for questions...

Originally Posted by Macrobb
You have to add more fuel. If you can't create a black cloud by flooring it with the turbo /not/ spooled, you need to add more.
You'll find that you need to carefully control the throttle to not create smoke until you build up some boost, and only /then/ can you floor it.
As it is, you are basically only using it to remove the effects of /losing/ power at higher revs/higher altitudes, same as the stock turbo did. Which is why the ratings were so disappointing.

Turning up the fuel on a turbo engine is much different than a NA engine - with a NA engine, you are looking for light haze at WOT. With a turbo, it's the same light haze at WOT... With your turbo spooled as hard as it can be.

If you have trouble with smoke prior to turbo spooling(i.e. low in the revs, taking off etc), you can invest in an Aneroid like Hypermax's "Smoke Puff Limiter", which will effectively control max fueling based on boost.

Even a "stock" IP should be able to give you a decent level of power, with the screw turned up.
Huh. I guess that's the next step then. Since my EGTs are so high I didn't think that lack of fuel was the problem.
Edit: granted I knew clear exhaust meant I was burning all the available fuel and that I wasn't gonna get much more total boost, but the rest of the performance was so poor...just argh.
 
  #55  
Old 07-24-2016, 10:22 AM
Macrobb's Avatar
Macrobb
Macrobb is offline
Postmaster
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,860
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes on 6 Posts
Originally Posted by The_Josh_Bear
Huh. I guess that's the next step then. Since my EGTs are so high I didn't think that lack of fuel was the problem.
Once you have your fuel turned up, try messing with timing a little if you have excessive EGTs.
To be fair, I've never been able to floor my truck and maintain EGTs; they just slowly climb past my danger point(and there is smoke). I usually back off to the point that I stop smoking, and the egts will drop down to a safe level.
The amount of throttle needed to maintain this "max safe level" varries with RPM - at 2500, I might well be able to floor it without causing too much EGTs(though the water temps get kind of hot with that much power), while at 1600 RPM it only needs a little bit of throttle to hit that point.
Some of this may well be just my IP,turbo combination, though; I've never gotten good spooling below 2K RPM.
My new turbo may change this, I'll be seeing soon.
 
  #56  
Old 07-25-2016, 12:51 PM
The_Josh_Bear's Avatar
The_Josh_Bear
The_Josh_Bear is offline
Elder User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Bend
Posts: 867
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Minor update:
Turned up the pump two flats last night, drove to work today. Definitely feels a bit faster. No smoke.
No change in max boost, still about 6.5 psi. (This boost has been confirmed with two different gauges to make sure.)
The wastegate seems un-modified but maybe someone lowered the open pressure?
What's an easy way to find out? Can I unhook the hose to the diaphragm and plug it to keep the gate from opening so soon?

I will turn up the pump another flat after work.

Originally Posted by Macrobb
Once you have your fuel turned up, try messing with timing a little if you have excessive EGTs.
To be fair, I've never been able to floor my truck and maintain EGTs; they just slowly climb past my danger point(and there is smoke). I usually back off to the point that I stop smoking, and the egts will drop down to a safe level.
The amount of throttle needed to maintain this "max safe level" varries with RPM - at 2500, I might well be able to floor it without causing too much EGTs(though the water temps get kind of hot with that much power), while at 1600 RPM it only needs a little bit of throttle to hit that point.
Some of this may well be just my IP,turbo combination, though; I've never gotten good spooling below 2K RPM.
My new turbo may change this, I'll be seeing soon.
Some of that seems to be your build. As far as I can tell most people just plug in a 093 and cry "it drives like a new truck!" all the way home.
However my IP/engine does tend to act like yours, N/A or boosted...no real power under 2k.

Also for low RPM smoke isn't that what the torque screw is for? Just turn it in to lower the black cloud under 1500-ish rpms from what I have read and tried. Has worked well so far.
 
  #57  
Old 07-25-2016, 03:39 PM
Festus Hagen's Avatar
Festus Hagen
Festus Hagen is offline
Methanoholic
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Maine (NorCal Native)
Posts: 6,442
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by The_Josh_Bear
Can I unhook the hose to the diaphragm and plug it to keep the gate from opening so soon?
Unhook the air line, wire the waste gate closed.
However, if the waste gate flapper is not sealing it's not going to change much ...

It's welded shut on my R&D (Research & Development, Not IDIPerformance) Turbo, it's wired shut on my good Turbo.

-Enjoy
fh : )_~
 
  #58  
Old 07-25-2016, 04:44 PM
Shawn MacAnanny's Avatar
Shawn MacAnanny
Shawn MacAnanny is offline
Elder User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Felton, Delaware
Posts: 776
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Heres what mine with only 7psi and lots of fuel. The turbo would clear up that smoke but you can see before the turbo spools theres tons of black smoke. The turbo stays spooled to 3psi between shifts even and it still billows black smoke until it gets to 7psi.

My exhaust also exits straight out the back and is dual 4" going over the axles so the smoke would be much more noticeable if it were a single side exit.

 
  #59  
Old 07-25-2016, 10:24 PM
Macrobb's Avatar
Macrobb
Macrobb is offline
Postmaster
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,860
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes on 6 Posts
Originally Posted by The_Josh_Bear
Also for low RPM smoke isn't that what the torque screw is for? Just turn it in to lower the black cloud under 1500-ish rpms from what I have read and tried. Has worked well so far.
The torque screw just limits metering valve travel. It effectively limits high RPM fueling more than low-end.
If you want to reduce black smoke(without fine throttle control), you need a boost-pressure controlled torque screw. AKA, an aneroid.
 
  #60  
Old 07-26-2016, 05:01 PM
The_Josh_Bear's Avatar
The_Josh_Bear
The_Josh_Bear is offline
Elder User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Bend
Posts: 867
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Shawn MacAnanny
Heres what mine with only 7psi and lots of fuel. The turbo would clear up that smoke but you can see before the turbo spools theres tons of black smoke. The turbo stays spooled to 3psi between shifts even and it still billows black smoke until it gets to 7psi.

My exhaust also exits straight out the back and is dual 4" going over the axles so the smoke would be much more noticeable if it were a single side exit.

Holy cow that's a lot of unburbed fuel. Why only 7psi?
 


Quick Reply: I finally got a turbo! Now for questions...



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:04 PM.