When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I had a 2011 Grand Caravan for the last two-and-a-half years at work, and I honestly wouldn't recommend one.
At 35,000 miles it had to be towed for an electrical issue. Started the van up to find no instrument cluster power and the windshield wipers wouldn't turn off. Fixed with a re-flash of the PCM.
At 57,000 miles it needed a new cylinder head due to a cylinder #2 misfire. Apparently the valve seats would wear funny and cause low compression. Covered barely under warranty.
From about 45,000 miles the buttons on the steering wheel would only work intermittently. This was a nearly base-model van, so it affected the odometer and cruise control seemingly at random. The van has always rattled when going over bumps; as close as I can tell it has to do with the seats, but I haven't tracked it down. The rear HVAC control ***** spun on their shafts before I ever got it, and the nearly new 2014 model I drove with less than 500 miles did the same thing. With those kind of quality issues there's no way I would ever consider owning one. Some may have great luck with them, but I've not had a positive experience with one.
My wife had a '11 Sienna AWD that we liked, but never were happy with the run-flat compromise. The rear differential failed at 72,000 miles, presumably because the oil level was underfilled from the factory. It also needed a door cable at 81,000 miles due to a frozen pulley that I did myself. It's a $50 part with a 6-hour flat-rate repair time. We currently have a '12 Odyssey that we really like, but at 45,000 miles it's too soon to tell how it'll hold up over the long run. Fantastic gas mileage though, it's capable of 28 on the highway. We towed our 3,500 lb boat with both vans and had no issues, and the Odyssey is currently on a trip across the country with a 5,000 lb trailer. Total weight is 10,040 lbs with a full tank and no driver, and it's handling the weight just great!
I had a 2011 Grand Caravan for the last two-and-a-half years at work, and I honestly wouldn't recommend one.
Thanks so much for your real-life experience with 3 brands. 2011 was the first year for the new 3.6 Chrysler engine and I have to believe they have it straightened out because they are using it in EVERY flipping vehicle they make... (The idea of cast-in-head aluminum exhaust manifolds used to bother me out but the combustion chambers are aluminum and are hotter yet and so many engines have exhaust manifold gasket problems...and the early reports of porous block castings were not good.)
And I don't really trust Chrysler's electronics like I do the Japanese brands...so I have those hesitations. But I have friends with newer Chrysler vans and they are doing OK--I would buy an extended warranty and not get one with the max etronics packages. I do like the middle row stow and go package a lot and it looks like the Chrysler has the best ground clearance. And frankly I like the simpler boxy looks of the Chrysler the best although looks are not my main criteria.
As I said, I have big 3 engineer friends all over the place and there are no other American UAW choices. (Well the Mopars are CAW...)
I have friends with Odysseys over 200k miles and doing great, but also had friends with early ~2000 Ody's that had the bad transmissions. Guessing Honda has gotten their transmissions together. My wife doesn't like the passenger footwell as well in the Ody because the wheel well intrudes (I am putting her comfort as #1 priority here). And it looks weird with the window line--although they are redoing it to a straight window line in 2016 but putting a weird crease in the side...I don't get some Japanese styling. And the Ody seems to have the lowest ground clearance.
I am not a Toyota guy (I did own an FJ40 Land Crusher once) but can't deny Consumer Reports reliability ratings. I like their middle row seat which moves back and gives limo room for 4 people but again not stow and go. Love the idea of an AWD van but not the run flat tires at all. Have a Chrysler engineer bud that had an old AWD Mopar company van and took me for an off road trip in that for fun and it was so cool--but Mopar lost the AWD when they went stow and go.
My friend has not called on the E150 and I am not gonna push him. Got so much other stuff going on, and having found out that Chrysler is gonna keep making their mini's status quo for early 2016 anyway I may drag my feet thru this winter.
I truly appreciate everyone's thoughts and putting up with my "thinking out loud". I have been overthinking vehicle purchases and that usually pays off. The downside is that with great vehicles I get bored with them because there is no reason to get rid of them...3 of ours are over 120k miles and the "new" Subaru is at 94k and they are all totally trustworthy. When I bought crappy stuff I was looking to unload them at 60k miles.
Finally, although this thread has gotten off of Ford vans, it occurs to me that the "recreational van" market--consumer full size van conversions as well as large minivans, has fallen out of favor for SUV's. There are people like me (and other bicyclists and musicians) who like the cargo height and pure cubic footage of a van and are not as concerned about "wearing" the wrong vehicle like many people who would never consider a minivan even though it's perfect for their needs. Instead they buy an Explorer which has half the cargo capacity, or an Expedition/Suburban/Tahoe which has 2/3 the cargo space and a HUGE price tag.
Thanks for your reports, and yeah, I'm old enough to remember Johnny Quest too...
George
Thanks so much for your real-life experience with 3 brands. 2011 was the first year for the new 3.6 Chrysler engine and I have to believe they have it straightened out because they are using it in EVERY flipping vehicle they make... (The idea of cast-in-head aluminum exhaust manifolds used to bother me out but the combustion chambers are aluminum and are hotter yet and so many engines have exhaust manifold gasket problems...and the early reports of porous block castings were not good.)
I believe that George, from what I understand that particular issue was exclusive to the 2011 and early 2012 models. The upside is that the Pentastar engine makes this van a rocket ship compared to most others. The transmission shifting used to be awful, but that smoothed out quite a bit with the recall to re-flash the PCM a couple years ago.
Both the Sienna and Grand Caravan use canister-style oil filters, while the Odyssey uses a conventional spin-on filter. I've never done an oil change on the Grand Caravan, but the upside-down canister setup on my old Super Duty was the easiest I've ever had to work with because gravity makes it drain back into the housing as you remove it. I believe the GC's housing would work similarly. The Sienna's filter housing is facing downward, and is an absolute PITA to deal with.
I believe that George, from what I understand that particular issue was exclusive to the 2011 and early 2012 models. The upside is that the Pentastar engine makes this van a rocket ship compared to most others. The transmission shifting used to be awful, but that smoothed out quite a bit with the recall to re-flash the PCM a couple years ago.
Both the Sienna and Grand Caravan use canister-style oil filters, while the Odyssey uses a conventional spin-on filter. I've never done an oil change on the Grand Caravan, but the upside-down canister setup on my old Super Duty was the easiest I've ever had to work with because gravity makes it drain back into the housing as you remove it. I believe the GC's housing would work similarly. The Sienna's filter housing is facing downward, and is an absolute PITA to deal with.
My '91 BMW (mine since 1994) has an open canister filter facing upward and it is excellent to change--plus you can see if there is any nasty stuff on the element without having to cut open the filter can (my BMW is free of nasty stuff so far)... In 1971 (age 19) I bought an Austin Healey 3000 with a downward facing canister and didn't get the O-ring on just right. Pumped out 5 quarts of oil in my gf's parent's driveway before I realized what was happening. Fortunately my gf (who is also my ex-wife) had cats and a 20 lb bag of kitty litter that was unopened...
Fast forward to 2004--on my 4.6 E-van the dealer put on a cheep oil filter (WTF? not a Motorcraft) and the engine rattled on startup. After 3 days I decided to do a quick change on the filter and didn't realize the cheapie filter had left the old gasket on the mating service and I screwed the 820S over it. So 33 years later I had deja vu of pumping about 3 quarts onto my own driveway. Current wife and I still had a cat and a new bag of kitty litter...and I check the mating surface EVERY time now.
So I like upward facing canisters...but it's hard to make things foolproof because fools (like me) are so determined. Our last cat died last year at age 20 but I have a bag of oil-dri (aka kitty litter) in the garage.
No closure. Friend came and looked at the van. Seemed interested but said he'd get back with me in the next couple days about whether he could pull the money together. This was 5 or 6 days ago. Guessing no money...or he thinks he can find a better deal somewhere. Good guy but occasionally flaky and I have not done money deals with him before. Tough selling a vehicle to a friend in the event that something unforeseen happens too...resolution is tough.
My BMW blew its radiator after 25 years last week (built 9/90) and my wife's Civic has sporadic AC, its first issue in 133k miles, so at this point I'm gonna hold the van at least until my wife's AC works as it has been running close to 90 degrees this last few days. Will call on BMW and Civic service on Tuesday and get those moving.
I also got off on a tangent thinking I want a Tahoe or Yukon but am absolutely choking at the prices. Got a GM engineer bud and an independent lease sales dealer checking on lease returns for me. Rear seats don't come out on 2015's so I'd rather have a 13 or 14. Nobody is in a hurry as it's a holiday and people are out of town and partying.
Dodge minivans seem to be very scarce in leftover 15's now but it's clear they will be making them for 2016 and the lease dealer says he can get me an employee price on a Chrysler product.
I had the flu for 3 days last week and had 3 music gigs in the last 3 days so my brain is elsewhere for the moment. Need sleep.
I will definitely tell you guys when I make a move, either selling or buying.
Thanks for asking and happy Labor Day.
My family's heavy Detroit UAW background (plus my wife working for 40 years in Detroit Public TV in the IBEW) and this holiday make me lean hard toward buying an American brand name with a UAW or CAW build. I have friends and neighbors I consciously want to support.
My son works for a Tier 1 supplier (materials science engineer doing interior laminated panels) and just told us today he has been handed responsibility for his company's Chrysler accounts providing parts for at least 5 vehicles. He had previously been doing inside work on random pieces for Chrysler, Ford, and some import brands built in the US. (Not glam work, but he's gotta keep rickety giant machines going and hold up QC standards for honeycomb panels for trunk floors and trim parts with bonded carpet.) I know he's done trunk floors and glovebox doors--wonder if he's doing stow and go seat/floor back panels. Another reason to think about Mopar unless he tells me he's making flaky parts
Not sure that an SUV would satisfy you after years of being used to the space of a van. I have nothing against the Tahoes, but nowhere near as usable interior as a van. ANY van, regardless of who makes it.
If you want something a little thirstier and full size, why not check out the Transit?
Not sure that an SUV would satisfy you after years of being used to the space of a van. I have nothing against the Tahoes, but nowhere near as usable interior as a van. ANY van, regardless of who makes it.
If you want something a little thirstier and full size, why not check out the Transit?
That is the psychological battle I'm fighting. The big Transit has sucky passenger footwell ergonomics for my wife and the seat rows are crunched together. And I want heated seats/dual climate control for my wife so I NEVER have to hear her complain. Yesterday we did a trip in my Subaru. 90 degrees outside, AC on, and she has a blanket on her lap...
But there is a part of me that wants a new toy and a real truck (I have owned a full size pickup or van since 1978). I am trying to intersect the "boys want toys" thing with buying a motorized appliance and going all ADD in my thought process.
For the times I need ALL the space in a full size van I could probably rent a dang U-haul and get by fine with a minivan or Tahoe or even an Explorer/Flex. Or a Transit Connect.
I drove one and the lusty V8 sounds from the Tahoe/Yukon hit me hard in the soft spot in my head (just not ready to give up my last V8 maybe--I've owned 17 V8 cars/trucks). I would have a tough time shelling out the bucks, though, and would kick myself WHEN gas goes up bigtime in price again. And load height sucks. The ADD impulses go for the "ooooh shiny" factor though...and fuel econ numbers on the Yukon/Tahoe are about 1 mpg shy of the Traverse and way better than the Expy.
I think you owe it to yourself to at least check out the Nissan vans. You can get the lusty V8 sound without GM reliability or the SUV interior compromise. Made in Mississippi from what I can tell.
I think you owe it to yourself to at least check out the Nissan vans. You can get the lusty V8 sound without GM reliability or the SUV interior compromise. Made in Mississippi from what I can tell.
I am really going for an American nameplate and the big Nissan van in passenger form is huge (like a one tonner) and won't fit in my garage so no V8 there. And they look like a big dumb shoe or something--totally blah in the boy toy department.
If I go foreign nameplate it would be a Sienna or Odyssey which are both US built; the Quest is too rare for parts/service and the dealer network around here is not good. But if I go minivan, I almost default right to Mopar especially with my son's recent news.
May just postpone any new vehicle till spring; if we take any trips this fall or winter my wife is in almost zero cycling form so I could skip the bikes (just do hiking and stuff) and the Subaru would work fine. She just needs to bring the blanket for her lap... Not worth bringing the bikes if we can't do daily 25-50 mile rides and I'm not in that form myself. (One 40 miler wipes me out for a couple days.)
If a tree fell on my van today, I'd prolly go Chrysler minivan...
Funny, we just had a brunch at church yesterday and we were sitting with a nice guy whose wife sings with my wife in choir. Found he's a Ford engineer who worked on the one-piece body side stampings on the E vans and part of the interior sheetmetal layout INCLUDING the freaking engine cover. This the day after playing rock and roll with my retired engineer buddy who designed the E van front suspensions on Fri and Sat nights.
And the GM guy who I'm hitting up for off-lease Tahoes is on my bike club Board (I'm the prez) and he just got moved to Senior Staff Powertrain Engineer at GM--so I have someone to bitch at if I did get a Tahoe w problems
And my fave drummer who I've known since I was 8 does final interior layouts for GM and did the seating design for the new Colorado.
As I said, my connected world is SO Big 3 these days...
Happy Labor Day (we're going to a picnic with a retired bud who is yet another former GM and Johnson Controls management guy...)
No resolution yet. My local large-volume Ford dealer (with a good salesman bud in the used car dept) got a couple of Expeditions in, 2014's with 33-34k miles, still under warranty. Rental or lease vehicle and VERY clean XLT's which is right where I want to be (don't need DVD players but like the heated/cooled seats, don't want the $2k electric running boards to break off in Michigan ice/snow). Went so far as to get my wife to come with me on a test drive and we had a nice long ride.
GREAT on an Interstate, quite and insulated from the road. A bit conspicuous looking (my wife said they looked "yuppie"-like and felt conspicuous in it). And if I envision driving winding mountain roads in Colorado, I would prefer to be driving something lighter. But they felt solid.
A regular length Expy will hold a 4x8' sheet of something on the floor with all the rear seats down. But the load height is 34" and quite high for loading in stuff like guitar amps or my wife's suitcases (100 lbs in each one, and one suitcase for each day we're gone...).
I will think about it, but they had a black one (want a light color) and a red one (we have 2 other red cars that we will be keeping). They may be pulling in some similar auction deals in silver, white, or beige/platinum. But I think I really need something less ponderous to drive. My van is a couple hundred lbs lighter unloaded, and drives more like a balloon, but it's van and I can accept that and it's not costing me $$$ to keep it around. If I was towing a lot, the Expy would be brilliant.
No closure yet. Still thinking I do not want to make a big investment (over $30k) in an Expedition because if gas skyrockets, I have $30k to lose...and the idea of $100 gas fillups really isn't fun...I have had those in the van with $4+ gas prices.
Decided to start from the economical end of things and review. My wife and I went and sat in a Transit Connect on Monday, with tape measure in hand. Whoever designed the way the rear seats fold down is crazy....it's like there are 50 latches and releases that are like a maze in terms of order, and then the whole thing ends up covered with thin little carpeted trim panels that flap off the back of the seats. Not the kind of surface I would want to roll a snowblower onto. Nice 4 cyl fuel economy but just not roomy in the front seat area which we would want for travel. And no 8' length or 4' width.
Went and reviewed the Toyota Sienna. This is a great package. The middle seats don't hide but slide forward for max cargo and slide back for a wonderful limo experience for 2nd row passengers. We found a 2015 demo and asked if we could take it out for a while. Thank God we did, because my abnormal spine can simply not deal with the "lumbar hump" in the backrest of the seat, even with the lumbar support all the way down. I have 8 screws and 3 rods in my spine and can't afford to inflame it.
My wife and I took the day off yesterday (perfect weather) and took a 250 mile trip around Lake St. Clair. We live on the Detroit side of the lake, and did the full loop with detours into Ontario tracing my wife's family tree. In the Subaru. And my back was perfect....and my wife was comfortable (but did use the blanket in her lap to stay warmer than me).
I think the E150 stays thru the winter as my rolling "man cave" and carrier for Huge Stuff, and the Subaru will be the traveler. If we don't take bicycles, there is tons of room for our stuff and a guitar. If we take bicycles, we can knock them down by pulling off wheels and make it work. Hell, in the 1980's when we were young and newly in love, my wife and I did a New England trip in my SAAB 900 hatchback (with 2 bikes and all our stuff), and followed that with a New England trip with 2 BIG old mountain bikes in the back of my wife's '86 Escort GT that I bought her as her first new car. (I did unbolt and remove the rear seat pieces so we had a well.)
If we could do that, we could fit bikes into the Forester....and for less than a year's depreciation on a new vehicle I could buy a trailer hitch for the Forester, a great trailer hitch bike rack, AND a couple decent hybrid bikes (say $7-800 per) and call them a sacrifice. And the Subaru got 26-27 mpg yesterday.
Mopar minivan is still a possibility if anything is. I will have to do the extended test drive in one to sort out my spine's relationship to the seats.
I really like driving my Subaru; we got down some gravel road dead ends in Canada yesterday (and found a road named after one of my wife's ancestors!), and the thing turns on a dime and crawls up any hill I want it too. And it has a stick so I actually have to drive it.... If we decide the Subaru is not it after a trip or three, I could see evolving that vehicle up in size to an Edge or Explorer sized vehicle which I'd be happy to drive daily.
08-28-2015, 08:28 PM
updates?
