TTB Swap - What are my options?
#16
I've got 2 trucks with D60s and have these crazy ideas of building a custom TTB. Long reversed arms, full swing steering, and air bags.
#18
My regular cab long box 89 F250 had a D50 TTB in it when I bought it, leaf sprung of course. The ride was awful. With F350 suspension and a D44HD straight axle from a 79 F250 the ride is much improved.
The suspension actually moves when you hit bumps and the truck doesn't lurch like it did when you hit pot holes with the D50 TTB.
As far as I'm concerned, OP should throw that TTB axle in the scrap pile and get his choice of solid axle, D60 is much more straight forward than the old D44HD that I put in.
The suspension actually moves when you hit bumps and the truck doesn't lurch like it did when you hit pot holes with the D50 TTB.
As far as I'm concerned, OP should throw that TTB axle in the scrap pile and get his choice of solid axle, D60 is much more straight forward than the old D44HD that I put in.
#19
If you want a great ride with MINIMAL lift go Solid axle and RSK. It is unbelievable how smooth they ride And it adds 1.5" to the stock height of a F350 with the proper springs
#20
Why do you say the D60 is a more straightforward swap than a solid D44? I'm asking because one of my pipe dreams is a solid D44 under an F-250 SuperCab. I'm leaning toward a 44 because I'm thinking it won't require as much additional lift (I've heard 2-3" going to a solid D60) as well as cheaper parts to build it up (gears, lockers, etc.) But I haven't looked into the detail yet so I'm interested in why you'd suggest a D60 after doing a D44.
If I were to go back and do it again, I'd pick up a Dana 60, or an entire F350 with a blown up motor or something, and do it that way.
#21
-better with a ton of weight in the bed? sure.
-better towing huge trailers with high tongue weight? sure.
-better ride quality with light loads or unloaded? absolutely not.
the ttb is more finicky, requires more maintenance, is less tolerant to parts wear (ball joints, tie rods, etc) but it is a superior setup if ballin over bumps is what you like to do.
I guess we should go to rock races, and races of the like, and tell all the guys running d50 ttb's that they're silly, and that they would be winning races by even greater margins if they'd swap to d60 for superior ride quality.
1" of travel at the bump stop translates to much more than that at the wheel.....simple geometry.
a blanketed "solid axle" suggestion is the answer given by those who don't understand the ttb and its benefits (most people fit into this category), or for those who choose a solid because the juices (benefits) of the ttb aren't worth the squeeze (extra attention)
ttb is a masterpiece for those who seek and reap its benefits. solid axles and ttb's have their place, its up to the driver to decide which one is best for him....after they understand (or dont - and choose a solid "cuz its just better") which one would be best for them.
idiots and the well informed can both vote in politics. only the well informed should be voting, but the idiots vote with the masses anyway.
#22
Why not RSK a TTB, sounds like a good mod to me, better angles and more travel. Even more so, make it spring under, that would provide about an additional 2" of up travel without added lift.
#23
I disagree with every good thing said about the TTB. That is, if you're referring to the god awful leaf sprung version in the F250. In an F150, sure, keep your TTB because it at least rides mildly decent for a pick up truck. In an F250, you might as well take the springs out and ride the bump stops and it might ride smoother.
#24
I guess we should go to rock races, and races of the like, and tell all the guys running d50 ttb's that they're silly, and that they would be winning races by even greater margins if they'd swap to d60 for superior ride quality.
1" of travel at the bump stop translates to much more than that at the wheel.....simple geometry.
1" of travel at the bump stop translates to much more than that at the wheel.....simple geometry.
You are right that there is more than 1" of up travel at the wheel due to geometry. The bump stop is about 60% of the way from the pivot to the wheel, so there's about 1.7" of uptravel at the wheel. Still no where near what any reasonable front suspension has.
Springunder would be one way to do it too, but that looks like a whole lotta trouble figuring out how to do it semi-decently. I've never seen an aftermarket kit for it which says a lot too.
#25
A lift could give more up travel, but if there is much travel at all in a leaf spring TTB you're going to be doing really nasty things to the springs as you twist them and try to bend them sideways. It might work better (until you break a spring), but you're fighting a loosing battle getting travel out of a leaf sprung TTB.
Springunder would be one way to do it too, but that looks like a whole lotta trouble figuring out how to do it semi-decently. I've never seen an aftermarket kit for it which says a lot too.
Springunder would be one way to do it too, but that looks like a whole lotta trouble figuring out how to do it semi-decently. I've never seen an aftermarket kit for it which says a lot too.
As for spring under, sure it would take a little creativity but not much, in particular if doing a RSK at the same time. Just install springs with more arch, maybe even stock rears, flip the U-bolts/brackets over, and install longer shocks as IIRC they are mounted on the U-bolt bracket/plate.
IMO the biggest issue is maintaining level so a to maintain camber. IMO the ideal solution is to use an airbag to make on the spot or automatic adjustments, this could also provide a very soft ride. Use just enough spring to keep it off the bump stops with no air in the bags then use the bags to set height.
#26
#27
define "better".
-better with a ton of weight in the bed? sure.
NO. Better all around. Loaded or empty
-better towing huge trailers with high tongue weight? sure.
yes, better with a trailer
-better ride quality with light loads or unloaded? absolutely not.
YES, better with no load or light load
I don't disagree here, if we are talkin solid vs solid.
the ttb is more finicky, requires more maintenance, is less tolerant to parts wear (ball joints, tie rods, etc) but it is a superior setup if ballin over bumps is what you like to do.
Agreed. the TTB dana 50 and solid axle dana 60 use the same ball joints but the parts wear 2-3 times as fast in a TTB
I guess we should go to rock races, and races of the like, and tell all the guys running d50 ttb's that they're silly, and that they would be winning races by even greater margins if they'd swap to d60 for superior ride quality.
1" of travel at the bump stop translates to much more than that at the wheel.....simple geometry.
Agreed here too, but what is that at the tire? 2" of travel?
a blanketed "solid axle" suggestion is the answer given by those who don't understand the ttb and its benefits (most people fit into this category), or for those who choose a solid because the juices (benefits) of the ttb aren't worth the squeeze (extra attention)
ttb is a masterpiece for those who seek and reap its benefits. solid axles and ttb's have their place, its up to the driver to decide which one is best for him....after they understand (or dont - and choose a solid "cuz its just better") which one would be best for them.
idiots and the well informed can both vote in politics. only the well informed should be voting, but the idiots vote with the masses anyway.
-better with a ton of weight in the bed? sure.
NO. Better all around. Loaded or empty
-better towing huge trailers with high tongue weight? sure.
yes, better with a trailer
-better ride quality with light loads or unloaded? absolutely not.
YES, better with no load or light load
I don't disagree here, if we are talkin solid vs solid.
the ttb is more finicky, requires more maintenance, is less tolerant to parts wear (ball joints, tie rods, etc) but it is a superior setup if ballin over bumps is what you like to do.
Agreed. the TTB dana 50 and solid axle dana 60 use the same ball joints but the parts wear 2-3 times as fast in a TTB
I guess we should go to rock races, and races of the like, and tell all the guys running d50 ttb's that they're silly, and that they would be winning races by even greater margins if they'd swap to d60 for superior ride quality.
1" of travel at the bump stop translates to much more than that at the wheel.....simple geometry.
Agreed here too, but what is that at the tire? 2" of travel?
a blanketed "solid axle" suggestion is the answer given by those who don't understand the ttb and its benefits (most people fit into this category), or for those who choose a solid because the juices (benefits) of the ttb aren't worth the squeeze (extra attention)
ttb is a masterpiece for those who seek and reap its benefits. solid axles and ttb's have their place, its up to the driver to decide which one is best for him....after they understand (or dont - and choose a solid "cuz its just better") which one would be best for them.
idiots and the well informed can both vote in politics. only the well informed should be voting, but the idiots vote with the masses anyway.
The COIL SPRING TTB is where the benefits really shine. the TTB leaf spring design just plain SUCKS
#28
You're making an issue out of a non-issue with leaf spring twist. Leaf springs twist, there's nothing wrong with that, it's what they do, they're springs.
As for spring under, sure it would take a little creativity but not much, in particular if doing a RSK at the same time. Just install springs with more arch, maybe even stock rears, flip the U-bolts/brackets over, and install longer shocks as IIRC they are mounted on the U-bolt bracket/plate.
IMO the biggest issue is maintaining level so a to maintain camber. IMO the ideal solution is to use an airbag to make on the spot or automatic adjustments, this could also provide a very soft ride. Use just enough spring to keep it off the bump stops with no air in the bags then use the bags to set height.
As for spring under, sure it would take a little creativity but not much, in particular if doing a RSK at the same time. Just install springs with more arch, maybe even stock rears, flip the U-bolts/brackets over, and install longer shocks as IIRC they are mounted on the U-bolt bracket/plate.
IMO the biggest issue is maintaining level so a to maintain camber. IMO the ideal solution is to use an airbag to make on the spot or automatic adjustments, this could also provide a very soft ride. Use just enough spring to keep it off the bump stops with no air in the bags then use the bags to set height.
It's all simple geometry.
#29
You are silly. a Solid axle will ride better than the TTB just for the fact it actually has suspension travel. The TTB rides so bad because there is about 1" of travel before it hits the bump stops. It is that sudden stop that makes it ride so harsh.
If you want a great ride with MINIMAL lift go Solid axle and RSK. It is unbelievable how smooth they ride And it adds 1.5" to the stock height of a F350 with the proper springs
If you want a great ride with MINIMAL lift go Solid axle and RSK. It is unbelievable how smooth they ride And it adds 1.5" to the stock height of a F350 with the proper springs
#30
Wow--I just learned TON of new information--thanks!
And to the Ace_of_Spades: Please accept my apologies. I obviously did not understand the majority of the issues involved and, now that I've got a better idea, I see why you're looking at your options.
I don't have time to respond, individually, to everyone, as I'd like to, right now, as I have another, more pressing post I have to put up, but I realize now that there is just a boatload of stuff I wasn't taking into consideration.
And I am happy to confess that I, too, kept wondering why there seems to be only approx. an inch of travel, before the bumpstop on my '96/'97 F-250 H.D. SCLB hits the spring. I always assumed it was because the leaf springs are kind of "sacked," at 125K miles, when the P.O. dragged a heavy-duty, 8' Western snow plow around, a lot.
But a lot of what what said here now makes sense. Expensive ball joint repairs, at "low-ish" miles, for one.
And I know see how inherently-limiting the idea of TTB with LEAF springs is.
I was already aware of the fact that having leaf springs (as opposed to coil springs) on the front axle forces a larger turning circle, so that the tires don't scrub on the leaf springs. I could turn out of my buddy's driveway, and stay on the road, with my '88 F-150, but he has to jump the curb each time. I found that funny--it never got old.
But please let me ask one thing now:
I now realize that TIB and TTB are not the same--and thank you, everyone, for helping me to understand that.
However, apparently, I mistakenly assumed that the "Twin I-Beam" suspension (with coil springs) was simply "renamed" the "Twin Traction Beam" suspension, either due to Marketing's perpetual obsession with having "A Better Idea," OR because it meant 4x4 only.
DOES TTB only apply to 4x4's?
Or are there 2x4 TTB's?
And I'm glad to know that my original belief that the "Twin I-Beam" suspensions of the 2x4 F-100's, F-150's (and 2x4 F-250's--thanks for that tidbit, Diesel_Brad) are still as well-regarded as I've always thought of them, by so many. If the desert racers like them (albeit modified), they truly must be one of Ford's "Better Ideas."
Great thread--I hope to return, to give credit where credit is due, to Diesel_Brad, Nothing Special, Bashby and others (some of whose names I can't see while typing on this page--LOL).
Thanks again.
BigSix1
And to the Ace_of_Spades: Please accept my apologies. I obviously did not understand the majority of the issues involved and, now that I've got a better idea, I see why you're looking at your options.
I don't have time to respond, individually, to everyone, as I'd like to, right now, as I have another, more pressing post I have to put up, but I realize now that there is just a boatload of stuff I wasn't taking into consideration.
And I am happy to confess that I, too, kept wondering why there seems to be only approx. an inch of travel, before the bumpstop on my '96/'97 F-250 H.D. SCLB hits the spring. I always assumed it was because the leaf springs are kind of "sacked," at 125K miles, when the P.O. dragged a heavy-duty, 8' Western snow plow around, a lot.
But a lot of what what said here now makes sense. Expensive ball joint repairs, at "low-ish" miles, for one.
And I know see how inherently-limiting the idea of TTB with LEAF springs is.
I was already aware of the fact that having leaf springs (as opposed to coil springs) on the front axle forces a larger turning circle, so that the tires don't scrub on the leaf springs. I could turn out of my buddy's driveway, and stay on the road, with my '88 F-150, but he has to jump the curb each time. I found that funny--it never got old.
But please let me ask one thing now:
I now realize that TIB and TTB are not the same--and thank you, everyone, for helping me to understand that.
However, apparently, I mistakenly assumed that the "Twin I-Beam" suspension (with coil springs) was simply "renamed" the "Twin Traction Beam" suspension, either due to Marketing's perpetual obsession with having "A Better Idea," OR because it meant 4x4 only.
DOES TTB only apply to 4x4's?
Or are there 2x4 TTB's?
And I'm glad to know that my original belief that the "Twin I-Beam" suspensions of the 2x4 F-100's, F-150's (and 2x4 F-250's--thanks for that tidbit, Diesel_Brad) are still as well-regarded as I've always thought of them, by so many. If the desert racers like them (albeit modified), they truly must be one of Ford's "Better Ideas."
Great thread--I hope to return, to give credit where credit is due, to Diesel_Brad, Nothing Special, Bashby and others (some of whose names I can't see while typing on this page--LOL).
Thanks again.
BigSix1