hi all,

hopefully this isn't too much of an overdone question but its my first real post here. i have a 3k budget for a basic van that will be used to be cross country camper for my lady and i. it will be setup primitive style and we will be driving from Vermont out to eventually British Columbia.
I have been a Sprinter owner for 10 years until yesterday and a part time Transit connect owner(my lady has one that we lived out of for 3 months last year). we will be selling the Transit as well, as its too small.
looking at several vans in the next 2 days and there are a few pretty good options for about $2-3,500k. kind of agonizing about which years and models etc motor wise.

so far have a few e350 with the 5.4 motors to look at that have between 60-130k miles on them all in fairly reasonable shape(we deal with rust out here). is the 5.4 reliable? mileage probably averages 14-15 i assume? nice space in them to fit two bikes, 2 surfboards and a bed and living area. any things to avoid with the 98-03 e-350's?

Then i have a slew of e150 and 250's that are available. not as much space but possibly better mileage? found a couple for about 3k that range motor wise from the 4.2 to the 5.4. most were work vans and have a divider and some shelving etc though i have built out a few interiors in my day. any warnings in these models again in the 94-04 model years? trannys? 4.2 motors weak?

Then their is the classics". found a 87 e150 very basic van from california with under 60k original miles that the kid just drove from cali to massachusetts to go to school. no rust, got some dents and a couple warts but has been gone through to get up to speed. has the 302 motor. will going back this far be a wise choice for simplicity of maintenance or more hassle? needs a alignment otherwise good to go. was inspected in CA.

also found a really cool 85 part cargo part conversion with NO rust on it that has 77k and a 351 cleveland motor. it looks to be in really good shape needs a rear wheel bearing and has an exhaust leak otherwise it seems solid. just not sure about that big of a motor though it seems like they are reliable? it is not inspected.

even found an old Quigley that was a newsvan but it has been sitting(inside heated) for 6 years that would be fun but just can't imagine buying a rig that i cant start and drive first..my income is borderline so budget is tight..

any thoughts or suggestions or links to previous similar questions would be great and appreciated. going to look at an 02 e350 momentarily that was used as a old sheriffs rig, we shall see?!

thanks again.

 

If you mean (bicycles) and surf boards the E-150 is good enough for a camper, 98 up with a V8 anything will handle the Highways pretty easy. 302/351 are pretty solid, 4.6/5.4 under 100,000 are great but over that you have to look for botched tuneups (cross threaded spark plugs) bad exhaust manifolds on any of them is a deal breaker. A E-150 extended cargo will fit a queen size bed, but a used conversion van with seats out is already finished inside and maybe a high-top ++. I think a E-350 would be overkill for two people and gear..........

 

I'm a bicyclist and musician and have had big vans since 1986. I bought my '02 E150 4.6 new in 2003 and it has been very good. The 4.2 is really a weak kneed motor and I would avoid it (my son drove one at work and compared to our 4.6, he noted the 4.2 was a real dog and got worse gas mileage). The 4.2 also had some intake manifold or head gasket problems but I would be more concerned about a pure lack of power.

My 4.6 has averaged slightly over 16 mpg for all of its 117k miles (for some reason I have actually tracked gas mileage) and can pull over 17 or 18 on the freeway even at decent cruising speeds. The E150 with the 4.6 is the best full size van combination ever made, any year and any brand, for gas mileage...if you are not pulling a big trailer or towing heavy loads. Trans has been fine. For comfortable ride, the E150 is the way to go.

One issue with the early PI (power improved) 4.6 Romeo engines (2001-2004) which the vans got is that the cylinder head castings were bad and didn't cool the rear of the heads well. Exhaust valve stems would carbon up, valves would stick and eventually burn. There was a TSB and courtesy of my extended warranty, I got a new pair of heads at 42k miles. So listen for ticking if you are looking at a 4.6 van. The earlier 5.4's ('97-98) had some head gasket problems at the rear of the heads as well. And you will have to be careful on cross threaded plugs on all these engines. Otherwise, the mod motors (4.6 and 5.4) are great and solid, and will go a LONG way. So maybe look for pre-'01 or post '04 if you are looking for a 4.6.

Ours is a mild conversion with factory glass but aftermarket seats and almost no fake wood crap, and I like the comfort and quiet of the padded interior. We have carried full size couches, queen sized mattresses and a thin queen sized box spring.

We have also camped some in conversion vans and they are OK although the fold out beds need extensions (milk crates with foam) to fit tall people. My first 2 vans were actually Turtle Top camper conversions (a '73 Ford and an '86 GMC) and they were really cool for camping, but were really shoddy conversions and the tops eventually went concave from the sun and split, making for a mold pit in the headliner.

Good luck in your search. If you want more info on the TSB, let me know and I can dig up a cite.

George

 

Followup...TSB is 03-25-6 and I am cutting and pasting full text below. All material from Ford Motor Company:

"
Re: Technical service bulletin - Ford Motor

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width:100.0%;mso-cellspacing:1.5pt;mso-padding-alt:5.25pt 5.25pt 5.25pt 5.25pt" border="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0"> <td style="padding:5.25pt 5.25pt 5.25pt 5.25pt">
</td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:1"> <td style="padding:5.25pt 5.25pt 5.25pt 5.25pt"> Printable View (7 KB)
Article No.
03-25-6 ENGINE - ROMEO BUILT 4.6L 2V - TICK NOISE FROM ENGINE - ENGINES BUILT BEFORE 9/17/2003

Publication Date: December 11, 2003

FORD: 2001-2004 CROWN VICTORIA, MUSTANG, E SERIES, EXPEDITION, F-150
2002-2004 EXPLORER
LINCOLN: 2001-2004 TOWN CAR
MERCURY: 2001-2004 GRAND MARQUIS
2002-2004 MOUNTAINEER


This article supersedes TSB 03-16-4 to update the engine, engine build date and part numbers.

ISSUE:
Some vehicles, equipped with the Romeo built 4.6L 2V engine, with an "ENGINE BUILD DATE" prior to 9/17/2003 may exhibit an engine tick noise that is present at all temperatures during idle. The noise may be emanating from the valve guide area in the cylinder head. The noise may be more prevalent in the front wheel well area and may not be heard with the hood open.

ACTION:
Follow the Service Procedure listed in this article to properly evaluate/diagnose the vehicle condition.

SERVICE PROCEDURE
NOTE: THIS ARTICLE APPLIES ONLY TO VEHICLES WITH A "ROMEO ENGINE" BUILT BEFORE 9/17/2003 (ENGINE BUILD DATE NOT VEHICLE BUILD DATE). THE ENGINE BUILD DATE IS TYPICALLY FOUND ON THE ENGINE LABEL LOCATED ON THE VALVE COVER.


Verify the source of the noise by placing a stethoscope on the back of the cylinder head near the exhaust ports.
Verify that the noise is heard in the exhaust system (in the wheel well or catalytic converter area, from underneath the vehicle).
Verify that there are no exhaust manifold leaks.
Verify that the tick noise is still present when canceling each cylinder, by unplugging the injectors one at a time.
Check to make sure that the camshaft spacers are in place. If not, install cam spacers (per Workshop Manual Section 303-01) and retest vehicle.
Check for proper cam sprocket bolt torque, re-torque to specification (per Workshop Manual Section 303-01).
Check hydraulic lash adjusters for a possible "spongy" condition (refer to Workshop Manual Section 303-00).
Verify that the timing chain tensioner pin has been removed.
If the above diagnostics do not eliminate the noise while the cylinders are cancelled, replace the cylinder head and cam assembly with Part Number 4L3Z-6049-AA (RH) or 4L3Z-6049-BA (LH). Refer to Workshop Manual Section 303- 01 for cylinder head replacement procedures.

NOTE: THE REPLACEMENT CYLINDER HEAD WILL NOT IMPROVE OR REDUCE PERFORMANCE.

PART NUMBER PART NAME
4L3Z-6049-AA Cylinder Head Asy - RH
4L3Z-6049-BA Cylinder Head Asy - LH


OTHER APPLICABLE ARTICLES:
NONE

SUPERSEDES:
03-16-4

WARRANTY STATUS:
Eligible Under Provisions Of New Vehicle Limited Warranty Coverage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE: The information in Technical Service Bulletins is intended for use by trained, professional technicians with the knowledge, tools, and equipment to do the job properly and safely. It informs these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or provides information that could assist in proper vehicle service. The procedures should not be performed by "do-it-yourselfers". Do not assume that a condition described affects your car or truck. Contact a Ford, Lincoln, or Mercury dealership to determine whether the Bulletin applies to your vehicle.

Copyright © 2003 Ford Motor Company "

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Generally an E350 would be huge overkill for you stated needs----you'd HATE the ride if its not loaded with at least 1,000# cargo or gear.

Typically the 5.4 V8 motors are highly reliable assuming of course they've been properly maintained. I'm driving one bought with 203K miles, have pretty well kept to accepted maintenance routines---at 275K miles its still running well, almost better than its replacement E250 with "only" 185K miles!

Unless you're already familiar with the quirks and maintenance requirements of the '97 and later motors its tough to visually inspect them without a few somewhat specialized tools. I'm thinking a suitable OBD-II code scanner, one that will record and/or display what's known as real time data---and of course someone to interpret that too.

Plugs can be an issue but somewhat easily remedied if they spit one out. By 130K miles if it's not already occurred (and been repaired) its a good bet they're not likely to be problematic in the future. For this part of maintenance here on FTE there are more than a few well written plug changing threads which are generally followed by nearly everyone who does this DIY.

There is another slight issue with the 5.4 and 6.8 heads where they allow a small oil leak that's completely non-fatal or a huge issue. This manifests itself visually on the back right (passenger) side and/or the left (driver) side head too. You'll see a thin film of oil running downward from where the head joints the block. (Left side can't be seen because its behind the front cover.) Since both heads are the same and interchangeable side-to-side if it occurs on one side most likely its also present on the other too--again completely non-fatal. It requires only checking level between oil/filter changes.

As George says I'd avoid the 4.2 in any chassis other than an E150 that will never see any loads even closely approaching its GVWR. Inflated helium balloons would be okay---too much else and you're taxing that anemic little motor!

Where are you located BTW?

 

The bad thing about the 4.6/5.4's are the plugs, they do spit them outta the heads on occasion and they're not always easy to fix. My son went thru this with the 5.4 in his 99 Expedition, he ended up pulling the engine after fighting one plug for two weeks. Just when he was about to buy a reman engine to replace it (the one he pulled had 150K plus on it) he got the offending head to accept the thread insert. He then put it back together, then had to pull the front cover off to adjust the timing chains to get it to run. The 302/351's are a lot cheaper and easier to rebuild if they need it (they don't often) They also do not have the quirks that the Mods do. And the mileage difference is negligible. We bought a 97,000 mile 96 E150 conversion van last year to travel in. It was in nearly new condition with only an exhaust leak at the manifold/head junction. I did though go thru the whole thing before travelling just to insure there would be no breakdowns. I changed all 4 shocks, brakes, both rear axles and bearings, did a GT40 head swap on the 351, replaced the iron manifolds with coated shortys, then built a complete new 3" single exhaust for it. While the engine was down to the short block, I also replaced the waterpump. After all this, we drove it 4000 miles to California and back with zero problems. Purchase price was $4000, the stuff I did to it afterwards ran about another 2 grand doing all the work myself.

 

That would explain why it's always a quart low at oil change time

 

A quart low at oil change time, if your intervals are 3000 miles are more, does not necessarily have to be a leak. Engines all use oil and I used to consider 3000 miles to a quart to be spectacularly low oil consumption. My 4.6 would use a quart at about 3500 miles when it was brand new, and oil consumption now, at 117k miles, is actually lower than that. It actually seems to like not being filled to the top of the crosshatches on the dipstick, but to the midpoint (which is 6 quarts on my 4.6 and I think 7 quarts on the 5.4) of the stick. I have heard this from Ford engineers on forums over the years. My engine actually uses less oil if I don't fill it to the top of the crosshatches.

As for the plug spitting, the 5.4 and 6.8 seem to spit more plugs statistically than the 4.6 engines; they have more power, vibration, and cylinder pressure. I don't see a large incidence of spit plugs in 4.6's. And of course, you need to be careful not to cross-thread plugs or over-tighten them. I have never heard of a need to "tighten" timing chains on the mod motors.

There are numerous instances of 4.6's and 5.4's that have gone well over half a million miles; I consider them far superior in terms of reliability to the old standby 302's and 351's despite their plug issues. The guy with the million mile van had almost 1.3 million miles on his 5.4 without any internal engine work, and there was just a fellow who posted on this forum with a fleet of E vans with 5.4's that have gone 400-500k miles as I recall. I knew a guy with a limo company and their 4.6's easily would go 300k miles; there are a lot of ex-cop car taxicabs that go 1/3 to 1/2 million miles.

I think the guy with the million mile van's website is still up at www.millionmilevan.com

I don't know of any 302 or 351 that has gone that far with minimal maintenance.

The overhead cam engines are more complex than the oldies, and have had the plug spitting issues, but if you screw in the plugs properly, everything I know about them indicates that they are among the tightest and longest lasting engines that Ford has ever built. I have heard of instances where they are torn down at 300k miles and the cylinders still have the factory crosshatch pattern showing on the bores.

George

 

well thanks to the awesome advice i got on here(THANK YOU ALL!!) we grabbed a 2000 e250 with bout 60K on it today with the 5.4 in it. we are really excited and though sad about sending my Sprinter to a new owner, this seems like a good move overall. the owner raced moto and took really good care of it only driving it in summers and storing it(properly) in winter. solid body with minimal rust and couple little quirks but overall for $3k pretty good. its white cargo extended body and really clean inside too.

there is a abs light, a airbag and a seatbelt warning light on but no check engine. scan tool said speed sensor which prior owner replaced but light stayed on. will look into, any advice appreciated there..

i will update soon with pics and wanted to thank you again. going to be doing a camper build out(low budget diy) and trip prep and will do my best to post progress shots etc. that will begin in earnest around May 1st.

onward and upward!

 

If this one is as well preserved and maintained as you describe I'd say you did insanely well! If you're not already received or asked about any existing maintenance records as PO when plugs were last changed as well as transmission fluid.

Plugs over 50K miles should be changed as they really do NOT last 100K miles as so many claim. They're cheap enough, changing them isn't rocket science and its a good time to inspect the boots which can be problematic due age if they're original to the van.

Your advantage here would be peace of mind for this all too often overstated issue of modular motors spitting plugs. Should you need advice how to best change plugs post back and I'd do a short write up for you, part numbers included. Do this closer to the time you'll actually begin though.

Now would be a great time to completely flush your transmission fluid---our resident transmission guru Mr Mark Kovalsky authored an article how to do this. His method is far superior to what most of us do; drop the pan, new filter and 6-7 qts new fluid. I believe your '97's torque converter has a drain plug which would enhance the non-flush method.

The air bag & seat belt light typically means one of the seat base mounted pre-tensioning device needs attention. IIRC a code scanner capable of reading B or body codes is required to properly diagnose such faults; normal hand held scanners cannot read those codes. The ABS code still showing might be the rear center differential speed sensor. If that's what the scanner shows as faulty cleaning or replacing it will automatically clear the code and MIL light too. Check further with the PO about which speed sensor was replaced.

I think you bought a nice beginning platform for even a minimal build out---hope to see photos of your process.

 

Wow thank you for your info and generous offer! I will hit those areas first for sure and though i am a do it yourselfer for the most part, i would love the guidance on the plugs as the stories have me a little nervous. Will touch base when that begins around end of April.

Love the sound of that tranny drain via pulling the pan vs a flush too! I will be tackling the fluids and maintenance stuff firstly and build out on interior after its up to speed. Love the stories about folks getting 500k plus. It feels good to have a rig with parts cheap enough and fairly user friendly enough to work on. Coming from a diesel that many guys in the business their whole lives didn't dare tackle. This is a new chapter!

Great advice on the warning lights too and abs. Would be great if that fixed it though its not the end of the world as long as it passes inspection.

Love the availability of parts and great resources like this forum out there too. The parts are now more in my budget vs Sprinter(though i loved my van!).

So again, thank you! Look forward to talking soon and enjoy the day!

 

Wow, that was quick! REALLY low miles on that van and I agree that you got a great deal; I hope that there is no rust coming thru the metal anywhere (aka cancer). The drivetrain should last you a long while. Although my experience with Fords is that plugs really will go 100k miles, your van is old enough that I would change them out because they're gonna have a tendency to be corroded into their bores. Also stay current on the antifreeze. I believe that Ford was still using the green stuff in 2000; my '02 has the gold G-05 formula that was originally supposed to be good for 100k miles but after that requires changes every 3 years or so.

JWA is a wonderful resource in this forum and is extremely generous and thorough with his knowledge including photos of his work. (I do less stuff myself than I used to, and usually won't take a camera out with me.)

May you have many safe miles in your new van. I looked at Sprinters in 2003 when I was buying my van and found a killer deal on a demo for $27k (medium length, low top, with seats) but was concerned about parts/service and rust...plus it banged and clattered on bumps as a new van. (This was when Chrysler was selling them under the Freightliner brand and talking about moving to Dodge--I did not have faith in the establishment of a service network...and time has shown that my hunch was right on rust issues.) And I like being able to get my van thru a normal car wash rack in the winter to minimize salt saturation (reminding me that I should run it thru a wash ASAP).

Take care,
George

 

Thank you all for the warm welcome, man this feels good to have a good resource of knowledge and experience from Ford owners!

Love how stout the van feels and has good ground clearance and obviously far more room then my girls Transit which she will be selling. That is a great little rig, she has put 150k on it without a hitch cept maybe abnormal wheel bearing failure but think the bad roads can't help that. Its basically a ford focus van. Good mpg too but too small for what we need.

Yeah plugs etc and fluids are first priority for sure in the e250 and will be checking every nook and cranny. Never wrenched on one so looking forward to new challenge. Have had 3 dodge vans in my life but needed to move into the 21st century.

Its from NH so rust is just a reality. Will just keep it at bay and we will be traveling and relocating potentially in salt free areas. The northeast(northern vt) is brutal on cars so looking forward to getting out of the snow and rust belt but will miss the syrup!

Good point on the antifreeze too.
Will keep eye on that.

My Sprinter was an 05 so it was/is reliable but it is struggling a bit with rust /cancer. Great rig IF you can afford it which i no longer can. Interior is tall and cavernous and they drive like a car.


Do folks run K&N air filters in these 5.4's? Any oil and filter preferences? And plug brands?

We bought it but will be leaving for about 5 weeks so will have some time to get a priority list and plan interior build etc.

Thanks again for the help and warm welcome!

 

I don't like K&N's; they don't filter really well and can give trouble gunking up MAF sensors if you even slightly over-oil them. The only time you need a ton of flow is at full throttle, and very little of your driving should be at full throttle. I have never drunk the K&N koolaid, nor do the vans need a "cold air intake" which they already have--air is pulled from the grille, whereas the CAI kits pull air from inside the engine compartment. With the feedback loops in fuel mixture, even slightly clogged air filters don't result in a big decrease in gas mileage like they used to do when we had carburetors.

Motorcraft FL820S filters are preferred--they have silicone anti drainback valves at the base end. Do NOT use Frams or cheap house brands as the ADB valves can leak and leave you with a dry valvetrain (and clattering) at startup. I've experienced this when my dealer used an "economy" filter during an oil change one time. I am also good with Purolator Pure Ones. As for oil, most of us are fine with Motorcraft semi-syn in factory weight (either 5W-20 or 5W-30 depending on what your year wants). Again, the thinner weight oil flows easier at startup and gets oil to the valvetrain pronto. Even non-Ford owners like the Motorcraft oils on pages like Bob is the Oil Guy.

Motorcraft plugs are considered preferable by most owners. I carefully consider products and usually don't stick so hard to the factory line, but the truth is that Motorcraft stuff works the best and does not cost more than other brands.

As for salt and rust, I am in the Detroit area and have been driving since 1970--have seen a lot of great cars turn into rustbuckets. My '02 is just starting to get a bit of rust in a couple door bottom seams so it's OK but I'm not really happy about it. This last winter has been completely brutal in terms of the sheer amount of snow and the corresponding salt, so every car in town has had an acceleration in the amount of rust.

Good luck,
George

 

I agree completely YoGeorge, ......no rust yet.