There are a lot of opinions on whether this is a worthwhile expense or not.
I have first hand experience on several engines that i performed ignition upgrades on and it was always a positive improvement. It may not always be a 'felt' improvement but there were still gains to be had.
If the factory ignition is weak then aftermarket components can wake it up, there are no cons to improving combustion.
The spark advance and timing curve is where most of the changes are to be made and for the most part the factory timing curve is pretty lame, on our computer controlled engines it is not wise to alter the base timing but improvements can be made to both the spark energy, spark duration and spark advance.
Quality plug wires will help to contain the spark energy until it reaches the plugs.
Aftermarket cap and rotor with brass contacts is always good first step.
The factory TFI coil has been noted as being under-powered and there are several options for replacement
Every engine is different and requires a slightly different approach but don't get carried away making substantial ignition mods to an otherwise stock engine as you will be throwing good money after bad but on same note don't make several changes to your engine configuration and leave out mods to the ignition, every system on the engine must be designed to work as a team otherwise there is no joy and the engine will not see its full potential in any form.. Just my $.02

 

I would agree and throw this in as well...since we are speaking in a forum that is focused on a very broad base (years) of engines........

When I hear/read about how unreliable points are, ......You will have to excuse me a little here, but, what is more reliable than points......certainly not the more popular & common “e-box replacement kits”.

Yes you can hear people state "It runs so much smoother/better than when it had points"........in each case that an individual said that in my presence, they had very little knowledge about points and the ones they were running were- old & tired or inexpensive aftermarket replacement units or the individual (including professional mechanic) was unfamiliar with not just setting the gap to OEM specs, but setting the dwell & initial timing to what the engine likes.

But let’s look at the OEM ignition system from the early 60’s….
Original Coil Voltage: 20,000; by the end of the 60’s 40,000 volt high performance coils were common…..by the 70’s 50,000 & 60,000 volt coils were easily available & is what we have today. Did we really gain all sorts of HP/TQ with all this extra voltage…….no, what we were able to gain was stronger support (if you will excuse my terms here) for higher RPM’s- specifically in the 6,000+ range…..enough to power NASCAR engines in the 8,000 rpm range at 200+ mph!

Points were used in NASCAR up through the late 1970's, running speeds of 200mph+.........Cale Yarborough did lose a race one time because the ignition points broke. In a street application, if you look at the data very closely that is provided by these more common e-box companies, in street applications (where max power-band RPM is around 6000), when the standard dyno deviation is removed (5% standard per every dyno mfg) there is less than 1% improvement in performance. Further testing by independent aftermarket DIS (direct ignition system) manufacturers verify this through their own testing- there is little gain over an ignition points system until you reach 4000 rpm…then you begin to see a slight sustainment of ignition delivery above what points can deliver but it doesn’t even begin to compare to what a “modern”, real e-based system can & does deliver in a real world street (and race) environment.

I am not promoting this product but their analysis is very demonstrative of actual performance results. link: http://www.compu-tronix.com/MightyMo...risonGraph.pdf
The other item is, in a street vehicle, if you wait to see improvement until 4000+ rpm, the race is over.
Here is a link to a back to back ¼ runs- comparison of points vs a couple of e-box conversions……..no discernible difference PerTronix Track Test

These e-box “conversion kits” have literally the same design limitations as the “conventional points”- because they are essentially using the same delivery system (rotor, cap, wires, etc.) and they are subject to the same inherent design impactors of which there are numerous….including ozone that is produced within the cap…..none of this has by miracle “disappeared” and in fact when compared in true recorded data-frame analysis, the benefit will be gone by 5800 rpm and the loss, although slightly less, parallels that of points. In racing conditions that could very well make a difference, but in a street application, you could literally change brand of fuel and see that level of improvement or degradation. Additionally, there are companies such as ProComp whose “High-Tech Multiple Discharge Ignition Systems” are nothing more than re-boxed low tech conversion parts purchased in bulk from other companies- mostly Chinese-based. Check out this pic procomp ignition box?? of a “new” ProComp e-ignition system- it’s a glued together GM part stuffed into a pretty aluminum box. Considering they were sued in 2006 by MSD (and prohibited as part of a settlement from using/distributing any of their parts), I’m not surprised by anything I see with their crap….but this includes much of the e-box aftermarket industry- a lot of PR documents which physics does not play any part!

Very good quality ignition points/condensors are available and when set properly, are very reliable and provide excellent performance. There have been no less than 5 people who I personally knew were going to get e-boxes, then I had them get a good set of points/condenser, a high voltage (40k+) coil, and installed them showing them specifically how to do it......the engines ran smooth and strong. One person did end up buying an e-box, why, because he said he just got tired of not being "cool", after spending $500 for a distributor, etc (he went “Popular” high end), a year later (when he asked me to help him fix something) he admitted, it was a waste of $...it didn't run any better than after we put the points in.

While many state the positives of e-boxes (and there are certainly many positive attributes), there are conditions which reduce an e-boxes effectiveness & reliability....to start with the circuitry and handling (container vessel shipping) of it from China (which is where 90% of the more common/popular e-box company's products originate). Any aspect including temperature control, static safeguards, moisture can & will cause both detectable and undetectable damage which may not show up until after you have subjected the installed component to real world vibrations, heat, cold, moisture & grease/oil. Yes, all of these damage e-components, but the systems (based upon a variety of factors) are suppose to be prepared to endure these exposures but that is based upon many, many assumptions. Including proper handling & q/a.......given all of the 3rd party involvement in the final product, it is unrealistic (IMHO) to believe that e-boxes have an increased reliability as compared to their mechanical-based counterpart. And in terms of “Dwell Control” I won’t even go into that in detail but I will say, what the “kits” provide is a joke…..you can actually get more control over the dwell by having an understanding of how to set timing versus dwell setting with points than the most popular e-box conversion kits can provide…..which makes for a very smooth running engine- this is not just IMHO, but well known among the "higher quality" aftermarket engineers whose systems reflect this ability to "tune"!

If someone needs to say I got rid of my points…ok, that’s fine, but if someone is really serious about actually upgrading the ignition system then do so……although it has been scrapped by the OEM’s in favor of more advanced, effective systems, there are aftermarket DIS units (yes the same as Ford used in the 90’s & developed by Porsche in the 80’s) whose cost is within reach of most buyers and will actually perform as stated.

 

I've run both points (dual and single) and several electronic conversion sets (Pertronix I & II plus Crane's XR-1) and there's no question that points are obsolete, PERIOD. and I know how to set points, and know what a quality set is. I have never had an electronic conversion set quit on me. I have had many instances where points and the other parts that are required to run with them, quit. Points are sensitive to weather changes (namely humidity) Points can be made to perform, but the problem is they don't stay set, year in year out like an electronic conversion or a factory setup does.

 

If moister and atmospheric conditions are bad for point's, than why are they still in use today in inboard marine applications.

For me it's because I can almost always make a point ignition work enough to get home without any spare or new parts. And I can't say that for electronic. Also it is cheaper to pack a spare set of points and condenser than an electronic control box.

 

Please be kind enough to list a modern inboard engine that still uses breaker point type ignition..

 

Unfortunitely, when comparing the "retro-kits' in both track & ISO certified labs, in comparison to Blue Streak (or other similar QA level) points, there is no performance difference until after 4500 rpm...and it is on avg about 2% (not in HP/TQ, but in the system efficiency at the distributor....now that 2% can vary as much as 5% of the 2% because of standard test equipment deviation, but as an example, Procomp.....it is documented with photos and lawsuits, the internals are/were GM oem replacement units.....which have a lower performance spec than Blue Streak.........documentation was referenced within all of theis.

I am not doubting and stated that the modern true E-Systems are excellent and perform well, but , the retro-kits, documented and well substantiated, are PR materials, nothing more.

 

Please see my post above.....

Also please look the referenced sites......most people crap in their XCVB when they see what they have really bought and what test data actually shows.....

 

"there's no question that points are obsolete"

True. So are carburetors. So are 1973 Pickups. But they all can work well enough and some people still like them.

 

HUH ? This sounds like something your congressman would give as a reply.

 

The last boat I had (inboard outboard, 4.3 GMV6) had electronic ignition, this was a 1989 boat. And I've NEVER had any of my electronic setups crap out on me. None of the electronic conversions I listed, nor even the Duraspark setup in my 77 Comet. Ditto for any of the vehicles I've owned that had electronic ignitions for the past 35 years. Back when I did run points, I was constantly tuning the points I ran (medium duty Accel point sets in a single point 390/427 distributor) They would last at best about 6 months before they needed to be changed. I bought a 63 & a 68 Merc Monterey a few years back, both had sat for several years. Both needed the points and condensors changed before the ignitions would fire, just from simply sitting. And go to a car wash and spray the engine with a pressure washer with your points setups. Guarantee you're not going anywhere until you dry out the distributor first. Been there-done that too many times "back in the day"

 

And most people who shy away from carbs, are simply doing so due to the myth about them having to be adjusted constantly, when in fact, it was the points ignition system that was causing the "carb" problem in the first place. If you want to run points, fine. Just beprepared to also buy a good dwell meter to set them and be prepared to use it occasionally. Electronic ? Set it once and forget it. Tune ups consist of new cap, rotor, wires and plugs.

 

After getting my first vehicle with electronic ignition ( 1992 Escort) a few years ago I can agree that the ignition is easier than the points setup, especially since there's no distributor.

But with the old cars, I had very little problems with the stock points. I ran the same points for ten years or so, just taking them out and cleaning them with fine emery paper and regapping once or twice in that time.

A big pain with the Ford, and others, system is that when you tighten the hold down screws the "stationary" point squirms around, changing the gap. The Delco system was much better in that regard.

As for spark plug wires, I recently worked on a friend's 1978 Fairmont which had the original wires which worked just fine. If the old ones are in good shape I am reluctant to replace them with new Chinese ones.

Spark plug wires can be readily tested with an ohmeter, and it's a good idea to leave them on the distributor cap if it isn't to be changed. That way any extra resistance at the cap connections is also measured.

Spark plugs seem to last forever these days.

 

One way to test the dielectric strength of the plug wires is to run the engine at night and spray soapy water on the wires where they connect to the cap, the plugs and every point in between, any leaks in the wires will allow a spark to exit and be plainly visible..

 

Gman, that's a good tip for testing the wires. Simple and cheap.