I posted this in the A/C section but haven't gotten any responses so I figured it was time to post it here. Here's what happened, my Aerostar (1989 XLT with rear controls) has never had working A/C since I bought it (used). I decided to bring it to a shop to find out why. I brought it to an A/C shop here in Florida for a free check and they quoted me a price of $109 to convert my antique R12 A/C system to R134a. They told me they do not know how well the A/C system works since it uses R12 and they do not deal with R12, they did however say they "jumpstarted" the compressor and it DOES work (though they are not sure how well). I'm a little suspicious about the price though, I've looked around online and from what I've read an A/C conversion usually cost over $300, yet this shop is telling me they will do a conversion to R134a for only $109. I've never had a conversion done before so maybe they are just cheaper here in Florida but I'd like other people's opinions. I'm worried that they know there's something else wrong and they're gonna convert it, take my $109 then tell me I need a new compressor or something. Can someone else confirm if this is an average price for a conversion or is there something wrong here? Thanks.

 

sounds like they are just going to purge and fill. not a conversion. (see alternate coolant below.)..
to use r-134a your system needs flushed, new dryer installed, purged of air, synthetic oil added and then filled with r134a.
it will not perform well without a new compressor that is designed for the higher pressures required to operate with r-134a.
a proper update would include an new compressor, dryer, larger condenser (the part next to the radiator), synthetic oil, the system cleaned and purged. then refill with the oil and r-134a.
cost will be near $1,000.00

an alternate is to have the system recharged, with durocool or a product similar.. replacing the dryer and adding a small about of mineral oil and then purge and charge..
sources of coolant...http://bennettsupply.net/
http://autorefrigerants.com/co00033.htm
they are alternate coolant suppliers...epa legal and cool better than r-12.. and r-134a...
can be used in both r-12 and r-134a systems...
find a local a/c shop that will use this coolant. and you will be able to get it done for the price you were quoted above.

 

Tempforce,
Can you provide the names of some reputable of shops that use Duracool? I've looked within a radius of ~150 miles of me and can't find a single one.

I can buy Duracool online but I can't seem to find Duracool specific conversion fittings or equipment with the corresponding fittings so that I can use it. Unique service fittings are required by law for each different refrigerant, but the Duracool site shows R134a fittings and test equipment.

Is Duracool Flammable under normal conditions? It is Hydrocarbon based and contains a good amount of isobutane. The site states the "autoignition" temperature, but doesn't address actual flammability of the refrigerant in the presence of a spark or flame.

You mention Duracool being "EPA Legal", however, that only means that it it is not an environmental hazard. I see that CO2 is also an "EPA legal" substitute for R12 or R134a, but it just plain doesn't work.

What about this?:
Legal Status of HC-12a ®, DURACOOL 12a ®, and OZ-12 ® | Alternatives / SNAP | US EPA
Notice it calls out Duracool specifically?

Just wondering what your thoughts are on these things.

 

CO2 requires 10 times the working pressure of R12 in order to be an effective refrigerant. So no, it will not work in your stock system.

According to that bulletin, Duracool and HC12a are not legal for use as substitutes for R12 refrigerants. This means you probably won't be able to get a shop to install them for you. It doesn't mean you can't do something yourself.

I did the work on my van a couple years ago, and it was a lot of work even without switching to R-134a. I got a HC based R12 replacement, and installed it myself. I had to get a vacuum pump for this, but you may be able to do everything, seal the system up, and take it to an AC shop for them to pump it down. Then bring it home to install the R12 replacement yourself.

But it's important to make sure your system does not leak first. So I would replace all the O-ring seals in the slip fittings in the system. The dual-AC system has 9 or 10 sets of these fittings, each with 2 O-rings. I would also replace the accumulator/drier and the two orifice tubes. Of course, once you pulled the fittings apart, you can clean out the lines with denatured alcohol and compressed air. When I reassembled the fittings, I installed clamps around the slip joints to stabilize them so they're less likely to leak again. (The clamps used to be available from my local Pep Boys.) I also applied compressed air into the system to see if it at least held 100 psi before I proceeded to fill it with coolant. The system has been working for 3 years, the longest it's worked in its life since it left the factory.

 

i went to hcrefridgerants main site, and found this.

EPA's Final Rule published April 1, 1994 states:

"In this final rule, the Agency has determined that second generation replacements, if they are non-ozone depleting and are replacing non ozone depleting first generation alternatives, are exempt from reporting requirements under Section 612."

in another section it stated that the alternate coolant must have it's own sized fitting on the vehicle/equipment and proper tags placed..

the catch, all cfc's are hc derived, all are ozone depleting and all are global warming. even r-134a..

i don't know of a truly safe a/c coolant, they all have issues when exposed to flame or spark.... (i don't consider co2 or c2 as coolants even if they are seen in special situations).

the hf coolants have been tested for industrial applications, and approved. dupont holds the current market for automotive coolants and when their patent is close to expiring we will be required to change to a new coolant.

sorry no information on installers...in your area...

i do know of a couple shops in oregon that will do the retrofit for you.

with the price of fuel and lodging, it would be better to use the, pay to have the system pumped down, replace the seals and drier. check for leaks, have the system pumped down again. and do a self install.. procedure...

personally if done responsibility, i would just find a source for r-12, check for leaks and replace the drier. have the system pumped down and recharge.
yes r-12 is still around, as a black/grey market item. it's made by a company other than dupont....

 

wow , that link to Bennett supply was some very interesting info , my a/c is weak , and have the conversion fittings and cans of 134a in a box , and a guy on the north side that said $60. to help me do it , but a shot of that 12c would likely do the trick without the rest of the hassle.

 

You should have your system checked out for leaks before filling it with new refrigerant. Otherwise, you would be repeating this sooner than you would like.

 

if they can resuscitate your a/c system for $109. by all means, enjoy it while it lasts! it might be the best $109. you ever spent. Why pay anyone $300. to do the same thing they are going to do for $109. ?