Today was the day to drop the donor body down onto the 4x4 chassis. We rolled the 4x4 chassis under the body and down she came...



And down...



And down...



Once close, we dropped a plumb line to check alignment:



And there you go; back on frame:



Now it is just a matter of installing the body bolts, putting it back together, hooking everything back up and refilling all the fluids. I hope to have it done Monday.

 

Still mighty impressive task from this POV!

 

Well, I'm not very happy right now. I got it all put back together, swapped the ECMs so that the '99s ECM was running the show, since everything that seemed to matter was from the '99, fired it up, and it runs like crap. It will barely start, run or idle. It does start, but feels like it is running on 5 or 6 cylinders. It sputters, chugs, backfires and runs like crap. I've checked and rechecked and had another set of eyes check and recheck my hoses, vacuum lines, electrical connections, etc, and neither of us can find anything that I forgot to hook up or reconnect.

It doesn't make any sense. All that I can think of is that we somehow damaged or flashed the ECM. We tried it with the '97 ECM and it ran the same. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated.

Bruce

 

Nothing more than WAG's here---keep that in mind at all times!

You've got fuel and fire which means most everything is in place, connected and functioning on some level. If there were a huge incompatibility with the ECM's most likely it wouldn't even fire up. What's the fuel pressure when rough idling? Could the existing chassis pump or filter be at fault here?

Could any part of the injector/COP harness been damaged or affected during the swap?

Does the CEL light come on----check for any codes yet?

Which instrument cluster is installed now? (Not sure that would affect the rough idle/hard start but it can affect things like trans shifting etc...anything related to speed dependent actions--been there, done that.)

Could the crank trigger been affected during the swap?

Its possible there's an issue with the '97 body wiring harness now connected to the '99 engine? This might require comparing EVTM's of the two years for differences.

This also sounds like misfiring when a distributor ignition system is too far out of time, like a timing chain that's skipped a tooth or two.

Anyway just WAG's as I said at the top----------someone might have something more specific to check. Half a thumb up then?

 

All WAGs are welcome...

I agree with your ECM assessment. If they were incompatible it probably wouldn't run at all. And, it runs the same with either ECM, so I'm thinking that the ECM isn't the issue.

I will check fuel pressure.

I don't think that the wiring was affected. We put in new plugs and rebooted the COPs, so we unplugged and re-plugged the COP plugs. The injector plugs were not touched. I have no reason to think that there was any damage to any of it.

The instrument cluster is from the '97, but I believe that they are the same...something to check, but I don't think it has anything to do with how this thing is running.

By crank trigger you mean the crankshaft position sensor? I was starting to lean toward that myself. How does an engine run when it has a bad CPS...or does it?

The compatibility of the wiring harness is something that I was initially concerned with. What are EVTM's? I assume that is some type of schematic? If it comes to it, I'll have to do a pin by pin comparison. But, I don't think that is the issue.

Last night, I pulled all of the hoses from the throttle body and PCV to check them, and they all look good. I also swapped the air filter/MAF housing between this van and my '98. The '98 ran fine with either MAF, so that's not the problem. Swapped out PCVs also.

So then, I did some reading of many threads talking about the aftermath of washing these engines. Somehow, I think that water is at the root of the cause. I DID power wash this thing. However, that was prior to the plug replacement and replacing the boots on the COPs, so I don't think it is a wet COP issue. Each plug hole was blown out and vacuumed out as the plugs were replaced, and the new boots with dielectric grease were obviously not wet. After power washing, I used compressed air to blow out all of the connectors that were exposed, but I might have missed something. Perhaps I have a wet throttle, camshaft, or crankshaft sensor plug? The crankshaft sensor was unplugged, but the throttle and camshaft sensors were not. Or I could have some wet injector plugs.

I will start checking all of those things today and see where I end up.

 

Your own WAG's are probably much closer than mine--you've got the engine in front of you!

An EVTM is Electro-Vacuum Troubleshooting Manual or simply "wiring diagrams" in a book form, specific to your affected years, to wit: http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-1999-Econoline-Club-Wagon-Wiring-Diagrams-Manual-/321132257506?pt=Motors_Manuals_Literature&hash=item4ac4f960e2&vxp=mtr Other years are available too naturally---have to change the year search parameter there on FleaBay.

Water in the connectors very well may be a huge issue here. Apart from the more visible and accessible connectors high pressure water could have found its way in almost any place giving you these symptoms. Perhaps using something like WD-40 sparingly will help displace the water? I'm fairly sure it can safely be used for this since I've used it myself on wet/damp connectors but never on anything as sensitive as your V10 with the ECM etc etc.

I believe if the CPS is at fault you'd not be able to even start the engine or you'd get a CEL condition. Don't take my word on that since I've not yet had to deal with that. The guys in the Modular Motor forum would be able to help in general here.

Hope this helps even a little, if only to trigger another thought of your own HAJ.

 

Did some more diagnostics today. I unplugged the CPS on my '98 van as expected, it will not start with the CPS unplugged. I unplugged the TPS, the camshaft sensor and all other plugs and sensors on the engine and they all appeared dry. I blew them all out with air to be sure and plugged them all back using dielectric grease in all. I carefully checked all the likely vacuum leak areas and I am pretty confident that it is not a vacuum leak. I also checked for intake leaks using carb cleaner and sprayed most of the vacuum hoses connections too.

Left with few other options, I decided to start unplugging COPs to see what happened. As I unplugged them, I found several that didn't seem to affect how the engine was running. At first there were three, so I swapped COPs with some extras I have from the other van. That made no difference. So, I started unplugging and leaving unplugged the ones that didn't seem to be working. I ended up with 5 unplugged and the engine is still running the same.

So, the problem doesn't seem to be with the COPs. It would appear that half of the coils are not getting juice, four on the driver's side and one on the passenger side. I'm trying to make sense of it, but so far I've got nothing...

 

Narrowing it down then.............

I'd check the COP harness where it connects to the larger body mounted harness that eventually leads to the ECM. Assuming the ECM wiring to the engine connections followed the body swap that might be the root of your problems now.

Test COP connector continuity through the engine mounted harness to its end point connector. Do the same for the body mounted harness back to the ECM plug, making sure the affected COP's aren't dead due a bad connection.

Its possibly but still unknown to me if there would be any significant difference between the two body mounted ECM harnesses but this is where the EVTM's for the different years would help. The pin out locations of different circuits would be listed and any differences easily spotted.

If you happen to discover or notice any difference in the wiring harnesses next step might be swapping one of them so they follow the engine and ECM as a set so to speak. (Hope that makes sense?)

Despite these two chassis being close in model years there could be a few wires "out of place" between them causing the (possible) incompatibility.

You're sooooooooooo close to having this done---I can feel it!

 

Yeah, I chatted with a Ford trained tech friend of mine yesterday, and he said that he would have moved the engine harness from the '97 onto the '99 engine. That will likely be the next step, but not until I confirm that to be the problem (and the proper solution). I bought the EVTM on eBay that you pointed out. The same seller had both the '97 and the '99 available, so I bought them both. But, I won't get them for a week or so...I hope to have it figured out by then.

I'm going to do some testing to verify the problem first...just because unplugging the COP doesn't change how the engine runs doesn't mean that there is no spark...there could be no fuel to ignite. I figured I'd spend some time with the multimeter before I started changing anything around.

I also want to compare part numbers. If anyone has access to them, please check to see if the engine harness part numbers are the same from '97 and '99 for me.

 

Sadly all my Ford factory materials don't list part numbers for wiring harnesses.

Someone here or the V10 forums should have that data for you---if nothing else user NumberDummy would be my go-to guy.

I'm rootin' for ya!

 

Ha ha...I just re-read my post from the start of this project...#4 on the thread.

 

I agree that ensuring harness and module compatibility is the first step but have you hooked up an OBD code reader?

Can you put a finger on each injector to feel which ones are clicking?

Sixto
93 E150 Chateau 5.8 185K miles

 

Yes, have had the code reader on it. But, until last night, I hadn't put it through enough "drive cycles" for it to trip a MIL. It did code out last night with several P03xx codes. I haven't had a chance yet to compare the codes to the corresponding cylinders to see if they match up to the ones that aren't firing. And, they might have coded out because I have the COPs unplugged on those cylinders, so I'm not sure that they are telling me anything that I don't already know.

I'll check the injectors next time I'm out there. Thanks for pointing that out...I was just going to check for voltage.

 

Well, the problem is confirmed...the harnesses are different. I didn't check every one of them, but of the injector plugs that I checked, everything was the same on both harnesses. But, on the COP plugs, they were not. In fact, some of them weren't even on the same block. There are three blocks, 2 smaller 16 pin blocks and one larger, 42 pin block next to the oil filler neck. On the '97 engine, my #10 COP is pin 41 on the big block, whereas on the '99 COP #10 is pin 2 on one of the smaller blocks.

So, I expect that I'll be pulling the engine harness off of the '97 engine and installing it on the '99. That sure would have been easier with the body off...sigh...

One other thing that I noticed was that the injector plugs (and injectors) are different between the two. The '97 has a plug that you squeeze both sides of it to unlock it to remove it, whereas the '99 has plugs that have a single tab that you push in to unlock. It seems that the '97's double sided unlock design is much better, as I have unplugged and plugged back in many injectors many times and none have broken. On the '99, as I was checking the wiring, on EVERY one of them that I tried to unlock and unplug, the little black locking tab broke off. I was thinking that I was going to have to zip tie them all down, but since I will be using the '97's harness, that won't be necessary. However, it means that I will have to swap all of the injectors as well. The '97 has a larger, flat pin injector whereas the '99's injectors have smaller round pins. This leads me to my next question; is there any other difference between the injectors besides the plug style? Are they otherwise interchangeable?

Finally, if I am using the '97's body wiring, and I'm going to switch over to the '97's engine (and tranny) wiring, will I have to swap out the rear chassis harness too? Which ECM should I use, the '97's???

Quite frankly, I am amazed that the thing even started and ran at all right now. Maybe once I get the EVTM's that I bought, I'll be able to see if there are any other differences that I need to worry about. But, given that it did actually start and kind of run, I'm guessing that there aren't too many other differences...we'll see.

 

When your EVTM's show up you'll see those blocks near the oil filler neck will be different----you've already confirmed that visually though. The EVTM's show connector faces and pin out's along with identifying all connectors by a number. With a bit of reading and learning you'll find your way around those quite easily. There does tend to be a lot of page flipping back and forth from section to section but its not horrible. They're also quite invaluable for things like your body swap project.

I'd transfer any and all wiring from the donor van's motor/transmission and ECM so that combo can communicate with its various sub-systems, as though it were all still its original home.

Having now owned a '97, an '00 and an '03 E250, all with the 5.4 motor I've noticed a definite "cheapening" of many parts. Your discovery of injector mounting is but one example. While this may have been an improved design according to Ford your experience suggests the changes were as much to reduce manufacturing costs than anything else. Certainly there is some "over engineering" during the first production run of a new design, subsequent changes made would bring real world suitability and durability into a more cost effective alignment with production costs. IOW they can make a part less robust, less costly in ways that don't affect performance.

Whether the injectors are interchangeable between your affected years I can't say----we might need Ford or MotorCraft part numbers to determine this. I would think there is some interchange possibility but can't confirm it.