Hey Guys,

Here's the deal...

I have a 302 engine I pulled from a 1977 F150 that I dropped into a 1970 F100. The motor ran great before the F150 was parked almost 12 years ago. I know that because I was driving that truck at the time. Now that the motor is in the F100, I am getting a clattering noise that sounds like it could be collapsed lifters. At first I mistook the sound for spark-knock since it was only present when the engine was under a load. There is a barely noticable ticking noise at idle, but I mean barely.

The engine runs and sounds great idling. Smoothe as silk. It even sounds great when you rev it up sitting in the driveway. However, when the engine is under a load, like going up a hill, the clattering/knocking noise starts. At first I thought it was a problem with the timing, but that issue was addressed in another thread and is now solved.

Another symptom that is leading me to think it's the lifters is when I shut the engine off I hear a ticking or rattling noise coming from the engine for about 5 seconds or so. This makes me wonder if the lifters are collapsing once the oil pressure drops.

One last symptom is that I expected to have less power coming from a 302 as compared to the 351W I took out of the F100, but this thing has no power. It's certainly not as powerful as it was when it was in the F150 and I was driving it regularly. If the lifters are indeed bad, wouldn't this account for the loss of power? Collapsed lifters mean the valves are not opening all the way leading to a loss of power?

As I mentioned above, the motor has been sitting for almost 12 years. Could most or all of the lifters have gone bad over that time?

Please help! If I don't get back to work soon, well......

Thanks,

The Fool On The Hill

 

Any engine that sits that long can have many issues.Tell me more about the motor.
1. Did it set up all that time with the rocker arms still set the springs can collapse the lifters over time and they may be internally stuck and unable to pump back up.
2.After sitting that long it would be extremely dry did you change oil and prime it to prelube it before start up?Not doing this could result in major engine wear at start up.
3.After this long the rings could be stuck on the pistons.
Do you have a mechanical oil pressure gauge on it?I would first check the oil pressure,then run a compression test to check the rings,then if all that bis ok I would let it run for about 5 minutes then pull the valve covers and check the rocker arms for looseness if they are all tight then I would rotate by hand and see if all the rocker arms are going all the way up and down.Any one of these conditions could cause a significant loss in power.

 

Hey Ray,

Thanks for the reply. Here are the answers to your questions....

Yes, the F150 I pulled the 302 out of was parked back in 2000 or 2001 after developing some transmission problems. The engine ran good at that time. In fact, I remember it running really well for a little 302. It was going to be one of those projects that I was going to get to when I had time. Ever hear that story before?

When I got the 302 out of the F150 I drained the oil pan. Before dropping the engine into my F100, I replaced the timing chain and gears, as well as some gaskets while the engine was out and easy to get to. That work included replacing the valve cover gaskets. Before re-installing the valve covers, I drenched the rocker arms with Lucas Oil Treatment. When I was ready to start the engine, I filled the crankcase with oil, connected a manual oil pressure guage and turned the motor over a couple of rotations at a time until the gauge registered some pressure. Once I had oil pressure, I turned it over without allowing it to start until I saw 40 lbs of oil pressure. Then I allowed the motor to start and immediately saw 50 to 60 lbs of oil pressure at idle.

My plan today is to pull one of the valve covers off and feel for play in the rocker arms. Then I plan to turn the motor over without starting it to see what's happening with the push rods and rockers. Depending on what I find in the first two tests, I may move on to starting the engine with the vavle cover off and take a look.

I didn't think about doing a compression check, but I'll do that today as well. I don't think low compression has anything to do with the knock I'm hearing, but it is a smart idea to know if the rings are sealing after sitting for so long. Good point, Ray.

As soon as I do the above I'll come back and post my results. Thanks again for your help. I think I'm on the right track suspecting the lifters, but I just wanted to run it past some other folks to see if I'm missing something. Replacing the lifters is not really a big deal, but 16 lifters at $5.00 each, and a $72.00 head gasket set is a big deal right now.

I'll be back soon,

The Fool On The Hill

 

You will be able to pull the lifters out without pulling the heads.How much oil pressure do you have when at hot idle and as a simple rule you should have 10 pounds of pressure for each 1000 rpms. However I would want no less than 20 at hot idle

 

Hey Ray,

Here's the results of my tests this morning....

With both valve covers off and the engine stone cold, all of the 16 push tubes spin freely in my fingers with no up & down or side-to-side play, each piston being at TDC. Then I started the motor. It took a couple of minutes, but eventually I saw oil coming out of 11 of the 16 push tubes onto the rockers. Five of the push tubes never showed any oil. It got down to 16 degrees last night, and it's about 30 degrees right now, so I think that's why it took a couple of minutes for the oil to be pumped up to the top end. I run 20/50 in my engins with 1 qt. of Lucas Oil Stabilizer. I've done that for years and got 800,000 miles on one 351W engine I had. Oh, I also had my manual oil pressure guage hooked up this morning and it was immediately showing 50 lbs at idle.

With 5 of the rockers not being oiled, 4 of them being on the driver's side, I think I may have found my problem. What are your thoughts? I'm glad I coated everything with Lucas before initially starting it up, but I've put about 50 miles on the engine since I got it in the truck. I can't do a video today because my wife has the camera, but tomorrow I can shoot a video of it idling so you can hear it. It acutally sounds good at idle, but when the motor is shut off, I still hear that ticking sound, like you are rattling marbles around in your hand.

You mentioned that I do not have to pull the heads to replace the lifters. Do I just loosen each rocker, move it aside, pull the push tube out then reach down and remove the lifter? If so, how do I adjust the valve after I replace the lifters? Do I just tighten the rocker bolt until the push tube stops spinning in my fingers, then one more full turn?

Thanks again for walking me through this problem. Your help is greatly appreciated? I'm going to do a compression test and will let you know what the results are when I check back a little later.

Regards,

The Fool On The Hill

 

Results of the compression test....

#1 - 110
#2 - 20
#3 - 20
#4 - 110
#5 - 120
#6 - 110
#7 - 120
#8 - 110

Well, 6 out of 8 ain't too bad, eh? Is there a "cure-in-a-can" for this one? I really don't want to pull those pistons if there is any way around it. Perhaps spraying some penetrating oil in the cylinder and letting it sit for a while?

The Fool On The Hill

 

Ford has stand type rockers and require nothing but to be simply be bolted down tight.You should be able to loosen them up enough to remove the pushrods.The old lifters may not be super easy to remove just rotate engine till cam is at full lift and you should be able to take a needlenose plier and remove them.I would blow air thru each pushrod and make sure they are clear of obstructions.Also make sure the new lifters rotate in the bore when you replace them.You will also have to break in the lifters or they will wipe out the cam.Hope this helps.

 

Hey again Ray,

Can you explain "break in the lifters?" All I've ever done in the past is coat the new lifters in oil and drop them in place. I always turn a rebuilt motor over without letting it start until there is good oil pressure. Is there something more I need to do to break in the lifters?

TFOTH

 

You should never spin an engine to build oil pressure. Prime the pump with an electric drill. Put a tea spoon of oil in cylinders 2 & 3 and see if compression comes up. May just be that the valves aren't seating correctly.

 

Actually he is right a Ford engine is very easy to prime.Using a half inch drill remove distributor take a 5/16 socket and long 1/4 extension chuck up in drill and simply run in reverse when oil is pumping into rocker arms and your primed.To properly break in lifters or new cam I use rotella diesel oil and some brand of break in lube Lucas has a excellent product.Crank engine and immediately bring it up to around 2500 rpms and run it for about 20 minutes this will ensure lifters are lubed well during breakin lessening the chance of ruining either lifters or cam this I stress is very important.
The two cylinders being side by side sounds like a possible headgasket being blown to me but it is easy to try the oil and see what happens.

 

I would also soak new lifters in oil for at least 24hrs before I installed them.

 

Critter...

Thanks for the advice.

Ray....

A break in the head gasket between #2 & #3 cylinders makes a lot of sense. I've noticed that when this motor runs there seems to be more condensation coming from the exhaust pipes than I am used to seeing. No water in the oil, or oil in the water though. But if there is a break in the gasket, it could be small enough that what coolant is getting into the combustion chamber is being burned off before it can accumulate in the oil pan. Also, when I had the breather off the other day and the engine had been idling for more than a half hour, I noticed that there was condensation coming from the crankcase vent that connects to the side of the breather. Good call.

Thanks for the explanation of "breaking in" lifters. If I use the drill method mentioned above to prime the system after the new lifters are in, and make sure that oil is flowing really well from all of the push rods before actually starting the engine, would that ensure that the lifters have been properly pumped up?

We've got some snow, ice & sleet moving in over the next couple of days, so I don't know how soon I will be able to get to the truck again. I'll let you know what I can when I can. Thanks again for your help.

The Fool On The Hill

 

If there's water getting into the suspect cylinders the plugs will be white and not brown or tan. If the plugs are much darker than the good cylinders water isn't getting in but still might have a gasket leak between the holes.

 

Thanks for the comment, Alex. The plugs from those two cylinders were not white when I pulled them for the compression test. In fact, they appeared to have a slight coating of oil on them making me believe there was some crankcase blow-by from the rings not sealing well. However, I did have one plug from another cylinder that appeared white. I'm starting to think my smartest bet would be to just go on and pull the heads and replace the gaskets. I've got to drop the oil pan again anyway because I have an oil leak at the front, so I can pull those two pistons and replace the rings while I'm at it. But I am going to put a little oil in them first and see what happens.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

The Fool On The Hill

 

It is possible to blow a gasket between cylinders and loose no water if it is blown at the closest point between them.Personally I would replace both gaskets if I had it down that far.As for the plugs the gasket can make them appear wet and blowby can be caused by escaping compression.I would leave the pistons alone if the cylinders are ok most likely the gasket is all your problems.