Hello im new on here so i hope im in the rite spot. OK what bellhousing bolt pattern does the 361 w/a allison trans in a 1972 swap with. Meening what other motors will bolt up to the trans. Dont no much about the industrial type motors. Thanx PS if this is the wrong area for the ? lead me to the rite spot

 

Welcome to FTE

I asked a moderator to move your thread to the Large Truck forum. You get more help there than in this forum.

btw: Ford referred to the Allison as the Transmatic. I looked up the Converter Housing, but discovered there are two different types used beginning in 1957.

You will need to take look at yours, find the ID numbers on it and post them.

 

Thank u. And ill look at the id tags. Looks like a great site here.

 

If I am not mistaken, the 'FT' V-8's (330, 361, 391) have the same bell housing bolt pattern as do the 'FE' car/light truck engines (352, 360, 390, 428, ect.). However, you can be in for a bit of trouble if you are trying to swap an FT for an FE. There are a lot of differences between the two, like oil pan and pump, crankshaft (both ends, flywheel bolt pattern and length out of the front), accessory mounting. What do you have in mind?

 

First off thanx for the reply. Ok, ive got a buddy with a 390 fresh rebuilt mild cam so on. Im thinkin about changin the 361 out with the 390. So from what uve said i guess id have to either redrill flexplate or see if theres 1 that would work with the transmatic. Not noing the pattern of the torque converter its hard to no if 1 of the 390 flexplates would work. Just tryin to get as much info as possible before i tackle it. thanx

 

The FT is externally balanced, the flywheel thats in there will work but it will need to be machined and turned into a neutral balance wheel. The swap is pretty straight foreward just know that the 390 will not last as long as the 361 in that truck. The heavier parts and much lower comp is what allows the FT to last so long in medium duty service. You will also need to make sure the 390 does not exceed 4500 rpm, 350ft pounds of torque or 250 HP as that is what the transmission is rated to handle. Post the model number of the trans but it should be the MT-42.

 

Well, this mite not work out. The motor is around 350 hp and not sure on torque. Maybe ill go another direction. Well the motor runs great thats in it so ill keep it in for awhile i guess. U see im converting the truck to four wheel drive with much liter axles from a 1 ton truck. Just thought it would be nice to put a more responsive motor in it. So ill have to think on it awhile. But for now it will work. Maybe just go the diesel direction. thanx for the info. This is a great site, full of knowledgeable people.

 

Another ? if i was to pull the 361 is that a motor that would be a good seller, is it worth much.

 

Not worth much, The oil pan itself will sell to an FE nut for about $50.00.

 

And the trans.

 

$500 if you can prove it runs.

Is this a functioning truck?

"liter axles". I assume "lighter..." There are billions of 4x4 pickups out there, why go through all this nonsense, especially if it's a working truck?

Just a thought......

 

Yeh it runs and drives. And i like the look of the wide front end. I see what u r sayin about easy to by a truck, but not with the look of the old wide fronts. Just a kool factor. Somthin different on the road. Just would use the truck as as tow rig for haulin my jeep and vehicles around. I think its better to use the old stuff rather than to just let it die if possible. The truck is still at my grandfolks place in another state, but i drive it around every time i get there a couple times a yr.

 

Definatly lots of knowledge on here, many may good people as well!

Here is some food for thought as to why i would approach this differently.. forgve the "book" but there is a lot more to consider here than can be considered in a one or two line response, let alone a one or two paragraph response.

You are starting with a medium duty truck, equipped with a medium duty engine AND transmission, designed to slog along day after day, slowly at times, but at the least cost to the fleet owner. Because of this, you would be better off if you want a "responsive" truck to do a COMPLETE engine and trans swap - or perhaps start with a one ton and do a two ton sheet metal swap.....

You are dealing with a completly different front engine mounting system than the lighter duty FE enignes use. This would have to be addressed, remember that most of these trucks use a special high strength steel frame that carries a "do not weld" specification. Yes welding can be done, but gusseting and plating will have to be done, and it will take some work to properly engineer a safe front mount system. Same goes with the spring mounts, these cannot just be welded in a new place without special consideration.

As mentioned welding can be done, although NOT recommended, but it has to be done with a greater amount of engineering than a mild steel frame takes. Easiest way to see what frame your truck has if there are any factory welds. If not, then there was a reason why not, it is the special high strength steel. If you see factory welds, mild steel.

The Allison, if it is the 6 speed, is either the MT30 lighter duty (32k max GCWR, regardless of respective F500/600 model), or the MT40 heavier duty (42k GCWR F700/F750, also used in he F600, but the F600 truck was always limited to a max 32k GCWR) If it is a four speed, then it most likely is the light duty AT540 series (AT540, 541, 542 etc) which is really a 26k max GCWR transmission that Ford said was ok as 32k GCWR, and they fail when used at this weight in hilly country at this. Iowa is fine though

Regardless, NONE of these transmission are designed to operate with more than a 4000 rpm input RPM. Also, the valve body behind that 361 is going to shift to the next higher gear at 3800 rpm maximum, and possibly 3600. That precludes the use behind a cammed motor as you can't go the traditional hot rod route and raise the operating RPM without a lot of custom work, then you are dealing with the heavy shaft and gears and there rotational mass in the transmission. Also a relativily heavy Torque Converter which is not balanced nor intended for use above the rated input shaft rpm. Good thing is that on the MT series, the TQ locks up, so you can achive zero transmission slippage, which returns manual transmission fuel economy with minimal heat build up. The AT540 series can be either way.

Same applies to true medium duty manuals, they are slow shifting, heavy transmissions that are input RPM limited due to the shaft and gear rotational mass.

Getting to the 361, it is a low compression (7.4 to 1) that is designed with a max operating RPM of 3800 (some were 3600 rpm) Why? because of heat. Light duty truck engines with higher compression simply produce too much heat in the combustion chamber and will detonate themselves to death in a heavily loaded truck when pushed for long periods at or close to full throttle. Yes you can set the timing back, but then the performace becomes much lower than a properly timed lower compression engine. additionaly the lower compression is easier on the internals of the engine and you will get longer engine life as a result.

You mentioned a 390 truck engine - interesting enough, the 391 medium duty FT engine, while close to the 390 FE engine in "size" has a much lower compression ratio of only 7.2:1 verses about 9:1 in the 390 (varies) even lighter duty car 390's were even higher, but then they were intended to be operated a lower weight on a normal basis. This is universal among any gas engine builder, the heavier the normal weight that has to be moved, the less compression ratio the engine has. it is the only way to get these beasts to live for a long time at heavy loads.

Again you are dealing with something that is set up to move a load, not fast at times, but at the lowest cost to the fleet owner.

I personaly drive a C600 (I am a Cabover driver, always will be) with a 330 and a Allison MT40 that is over 40 years old. (I replaced the origonal MT30 last year as the previous owner towed a 30k Cat 955 loader behind it, and it definatly held up well, but took a beating! - with truck, trailer & Cat that is over 50k - WOW is all I have to say) It is as best, loaded at 32k it is slow, very steep hills and I can be down to upper single digits or very low teens, crawling up in first gear or second gear, This precludes it use loaded on the freeway, but acceptable for multilane roads where I can slog along in the right lane four ways on.

Unloaded, and I have driven this truck quite a bit on the freeway to help people out a few hours apart I can maintain 54 mph on hills (about 60 tops, on the flats, rpm limited) or so on the freeway, more than adequate to achieve the minimum speed limit of 45 mph (60 mph max for any truck over 10k, or ANY car or truck towing ANY size trailer) in my state.

Why would anyone buy this truck i the first place? Well it was origional bought and has always been used as a city truck, IE on the 25-35 mph roads where it was intended to be used it is fine, but it was never build nor intended to be a freeway flyer.

But some people just can't stand to be in the "slow" lane, so it is not for everyone. To me, a diesel would be nice to save on fuel costs, but the cost of a conversion would take too long to pay back in fuel savings and using the truck privatly as I do, it is fine for me. I also cannot justify the cost of moving to a 361 or 391 - at least until the 330 dies

It is NOT in any way a daily driver though, it would drive me crazy. Too slow. it is instead a LOAD hauler. A tool to do a job, just like any car or truck. My daily driver currently is a Aerostar AWD, again a tool to do a job. I also have a 90 F250HD (wish it was a cabover) with a dump bed insert, again just a lighter "hammer" than the big C600 "hammer" when I don't need the big tool!

My play tool (plastic hammer) is the 87 F150 Flareside, if and when I can get the auto conversion done.

Good luck whichever way you go, but i wonder if you should just forget the whole reengine/retransmission and just adapt the "wide" sheetmetal over to a one ton frame?

Food for though, and I hope you find some humor in this "book"

David

 

LOL yes David i did find the humor, good book. U no u took the thought out of my head. As i was thinking the same thing about just switching the body to the doner 1 ton frame. Would be no need for relocating spring mounts, motor mounts and such. Im sorry if i seem brief in my reply's, but i am not what u call a computer guy. 2 finger pecker on the key board lol. Back to the truck tho, the doner i have is a 1979 f350 4x4. Body is shot on it , not even close to me to consider worth my time in repairing all the rust. But the drive train is solid. So with everything i have gathered from u and the others that is the path now i am leaning towards. I no to many this probably seems like a big waist of time and effort but with the prices of used vehicles and having most of the parts on hand to get the project dun at a low cost, to me is worth the effort. Not to mention when its dun u most likely wont pass another on the road. So with that said thanks to all for the help and if i need anymore help with it or any other projects i will certainly come back and ask. Great people Great site, THANX again

 

The MT-42 is obsolete and even in its day was a weak problem plagued trans. The value is maybe $250.00 or more to the right person.