Pulley Pains
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Freshman User
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Pulley Pains
Hey folks, I have a bit of an issue on my '68 429:
This engine is internally balanced so it has no harmonic balancer, however, the crank pulley has an outer ring which drives both the water pump and the alternator. This ring rides on a rubber sleeve just like a balancer would.
The problem is that the ring is beginning to slide backwards exposing the rubber sleeve. At this point there is about a quarter inch of deflection between the crank 'ring' and the water pump pulley above. The timing marks have also been skewed because of this but that's the least of my worries...
I'm afraid it's going to get worse... What to do?
This engine is internally balanced so it has no harmonic balancer, however, the crank pulley has an outer ring which drives both the water pump and the alternator. This ring rides on a rubber sleeve just like a balancer would.
The problem is that the ring is beginning to slide backwards exposing the rubber sleeve. At this point there is about a quarter inch of deflection between the crank 'ring' and the water pump pulley above. The timing marks have also been skewed because of this but that's the least of my worries...
I'm afraid it's going to get worse... What to do?
Elder User
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: South Texas
It does have a harmonic balancer and that is what you see starting to separate.
Just replace it with a new one and you are good to go.
Replace it before it completely fails and does any damage to anything.
Dialtone
Just replace it with a new one and you are good to go.
Replace it before it completely fails and does any damage to anything.
Dialtone
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These early 429's weren't externally balanced. There is only a spacer between the crank pulley and the front bearing where a balancer would've been on a later 385. To clarify, this ring that I am referring to is the actual pulley for the alt and fan with dual V-grooves for the belts. I'll get a picture tomorrow.
I'm thinking I might try to epoxy it in place. It seems to be a junkyard-only kind of part....
I'm thinking I might try to epoxy it in place. It seems to be a junkyard-only kind of part....
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Heres a couple pics:
One from the top showing the rubber exposed. Between the two belts you can see the timing pointer and behind that is the spacer where the phantom balancer would be:
And one from the bottom showing the belt deflection:
Sorry for the size - It helps show the detail...
One from the top showing the rubber exposed. Between the two belts you can see the timing pointer and behind that is the spacer where the phantom balancer would be:
And one from the bottom showing the belt deflection:
Sorry for the size - It helps show the detail...
Elder User
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 800
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From: Edmonton, Alberta Canada
that lower pulley is attached to the harmonic balancer. that piece that is separating is your harmonic balancer. the pulleys i suspect just bolt to the balancer so you will have to find a balancer for that engine to replace it. take the pulleys off and you will see what we are talking about.
i am not sure on the 385 series engines, but on the small blocks they changed from a 3 bolt pattern to a 4 bolt pattern for the pulleys right around this time so check to see what bolt pattern you need. that will determine what balancer you will need
any balancer up to 78 when they changed to externally balanced (they might even be the same balancer after that, but to play it safe, get one from a pre 79 engine) will fit that engine as long as the pulley bolt pattern matches but the timing marks will probably be in a different location. easy to fix but be aware of that.
Rgds
Mike
i am not sure on the 385 series engines, but on the small blocks they changed from a 3 bolt pattern to a 4 bolt pattern for the pulleys right around this time so check to see what bolt pattern you need. that will determine what balancer you will need
any balancer up to 78 when they changed to externally balanced (they might even be the same balancer after that, but to play it safe, get one from a pre 79 engine) will fit that engine as long as the pulley bolt pattern matches but the timing marks will probably be in a different location. easy to fix but be aware of that.
Rgds
Mike
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The piece with the dual belts isn't bolted to anything. In fact, this piece also has the timing marks engraved into it. In addition to sliding backwards, it has also spun about an eighth-turn from it's original position rendering the timing marks useless. The only bolt that I can see on this entire assembly is the single large bolt attaching it to the crank.
So, the small pulley drives the power steering pump and is bolted to the crank. The large dual pulley is just a ring that rides on the rubber sleeve. Behind this whole 3-belt pulley assembly is a spacer.
Could the dual-belt pulley actually be the outer part of a balancer?
More pics when I get it apart...
So, the small pulley drives the power steering pump and is bolted to the crank. The large dual pulley is just a ring that rides on the rubber sleeve. Behind this whole 3-belt pulley assembly is a spacer.
Could the dual-belt pulley actually be the outer part of a balancer?
More pics when I get it apart...
Tuned
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 464
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From: Redmond, WA USA
The piece with the dual belts isn't bolted to anything. In fact, this piece also has the timing marks engraved into it. In addition to sliding backwards, it has also spun about an eighth-turn from it's original position rendering the timing marks useless. [snip] The large dual pulley is just a ring that rides on the rubber sleeve. [snip] Could the dual-belt pulley actually be the outer part of a balancer?
You need to use a puller to properly remove it - the puller has a center shaft which pushes against the end of the crankshaft (once that bolt is removed), and then you use two other bolts through ears on the puller that thread into the balancer itself. Here's a picture of a typical puller:
Northern Auto Tools Performance Tool W151P Harmonic Balancer Puller Set - Engine - Specialty Tools
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Yep I've got one - great for steering wheels as well...
I am hoping that there is some sort of aligning mark on the ring so that it can be rotated back to its original position. Since the crankshaft's keyway is in a fixed position, surely the assemblers had to know how to orient the pulley ring since it carries the timing marks.
Money is an issue right now and the car has to remain mobile so my plan (for now) is to use a 3jaw puller to at least get it realigned with the belts again. I will then try to inject cyanoacrylate in between the rubber and the metal, then use epoxy around the outside.
More to come later...
I am hoping that there is some sort of aligning mark on the ring so that it can be rotated back to its original position. Since the crankshaft's keyway is in a fixed position, surely the assemblers had to know how to orient the pulley ring since it carries the timing marks.
Money is an issue right now and the car has to remain mobile so my plan (for now) is to use a 3jaw puller to at least get it realigned with the belts again. I will then try to inject cyanoacrylate in between the rubber and the metal, then use epoxy around the outside.
More to come later...
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Freshman User
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I found one replacement so far: Damper Doctor Online: FORD 429-460 C.I.
$167.75!!! Holy ***** batman
This thread is where I read about the 385's balancing: Internal or external balance? - Ford Forums - Mustang Forum, Ford Trucks, Ford Focus and Ford Cars
If my '68 is 'internally balanced', why does it need a balancer pulley?
$167.75!!! Holy ***** batman
This thread is where I read about the 385's balancing: Internal or external balance? - Ford Forums - Mustang Forum, Ford Trucks, Ford Focus and Ford Cars
If my '68 is 'internally balanced', why does it need a balancer pulley?
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 18,423
Likes: 9
From: iowa
I found one replacement so far: Damper Doctor Online: FORD 429-460 C.I.
$167.75!!! Holy ***** batman
This thread is where I read about the 385's balancing: Internal or external balance? - Ford Forums - Mustang Forum, Ford Trucks, Ford Focus and Ford Cars
If my '68 is 'internally balanced', why does it need a balancer pulley?
$167.75!!! Holy ***** batman
This thread is where I read about the 385's balancing: Internal or external balance? - Ford Forums - Mustang Forum, Ford Trucks, Ford Focus and Ford Cars
If my '68 is 'internally balanced', why does it need a balancer pulley?
because balancer is actually the wrong term. They are technically Harmonic Dampeners and don't "balance" anything. And Dampener is the proper name for them.
The term balancer came into being because SOME engines are externally balanced and thus have the in-balance done on the "balancer"
Tuned
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 464
Likes: 5
From: Redmond, WA USA
because balancer is actually the wrong term. They are technically Harmonic Dampeners and don't "balance" anything. And Dampener is the proper name for them.
The term balancer came into being because SOME engines are externally balanced and thus have the in-balance done on the "balancer"
The term balancer came into being because SOME engines are externally balanced and thus have the in-balance done on the "balancer"
I've seen people tear engines half-way down trying to figure out why the enigne is not running right, due to the timing marks being off as the dampener starts to fail (and them not knowing what had happened). Boy oh boy can that really make a person ticked off! BTDT . . .
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I may not be able to 'fix' it, but I intend slow the failure until I can swing for a replacement. The rubber is still pliable and the bond is rather tight (cant budge it by hand). The car is not quite ready for the road but I still need to run it on a regular basis to keep it healthy.
One more question I have is this:
The pulley appears quite symmetrical and uniform all around - Since my 429 is internally balanced, does the dampener need to be rotated back to its original position to work properly?
One more question I have is this:
The pulley appears quite symmetrical and uniform all around - Since my 429 is internally balanced, does the dampener need to be rotated back to its original position to work properly?
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 18,423
Likes: 9
From: iowa
I may not be able to 'fix' it, but I intend slow the failure until I can swing for a replacement. The rubber is still pliable and the bond is rather tight (cant budge it by hand). The car is not quite ready for the road but I still need to run it on a regular basis to keep it healthy.
One more question I have is this:
The pulley appears quite symmetrical and uniform all around - Since my 429 is internally balanced, does the dampener need to be rotated back to its original position to work properly?
One more question I have is this:
The pulley appears quite symmetrical and uniform all around - Since my 429 is internally balanced, does the dampener need to be rotated back to its original position to work properly?
It's much cheaper to fix it right now then if it takes other stuff out. May not be easy as I understand money being tight but sometimes it's better to find the money then have to pay a LOT more later.
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Actually the timing issue is how I discovered the problem. I was getting over 40 degrees BTDC at idle. Unfortunately I turned the distributor after this and lost my perfect 6 deg setting forever. You know what they say about hindsight....
Anyways, I pulled the damper this evening for a closer look:
On the back is a divot drilled out of it showing that there is some balancing (or un-balancing) built into it. I still see no indication as to how it is supposed to be aligned with the core. I'm thinking that the timing marks were probably scribed onto it after assembly.
After I reinstall it, I'll set the crank at TDC and try to rotate it back to normal. Then I'll attempt to glue it. I'm thinking a hypo-needle and some hobby grade super glue is in order for now. I can't think of any other compound that is thin enough yet still very strong...
Luckily it's not my DD since there's no way in hell I can scrape up the nearly $200 for a rebuilt piece. I'll just have to keep an eye on it until then.
This will be interesting.
Anyways, I pulled the damper this evening for a closer look:
On the back is a divot drilled out of it showing that there is some balancing (or un-balancing) built into it. I still see no indication as to how it is supposed to be aligned with the core. I'm thinking that the timing marks were probably scribed onto it after assembly.
After I reinstall it, I'll set the crank at TDC and try to rotate it back to normal. Then I'll attempt to glue it. I'm thinking a hypo-needle and some hobby grade super glue is in order for now. I can't think of any other compound that is thin enough yet still very strong...
Luckily it's not my DD since there's no way in hell I can scrape up the nearly $200 for a rebuilt piece. I'll just have to keep an eye on it until then.
This will be interesting.