Hey guys. Everything is new on my engine and I still have start up issues. I know the 6.9 can have that problem to begin with but even on a 90 degree day like today it has a problem. Now keep in mind that the timing is still at base adjustment. A shop wants to charge me $200 an hour to do the timing and that ain't going to happen. I have yet to buy the timing system for it because I hear they are expensive. If you guys have any ideas let me know. If the ruling be that timing is the problem than I guess I'll have to fork out the dough one way or the other. Also the glow plugs are working fine and they help, but very little. Thanks.

 

I am assuming you replaced the IP and injectors with new ones. If that is the case, you will be cranking a little while until the fuel is pumped through the IP and injectors. Crank 10 seconds and wait 5 minutes each time.

 

The pump and the injectors are new (injectors rebuilt). It's running fine, I have already gone through the air bleeding process and have been driving to work for a while as it stands. I have simply neglected to have the timing done on it. I'm not sure if being a little off on timing could even cause such a hard start issue. I would be interested to hear from you, or anybody who knows, exactly how important timing on the 6.9 pump is and if so what kind of timing system is recommended. The shops around here act like the timing isn't a big deal on those diesels and if that is the case than it once again demands the question of why won't it start right. Once again everything is new top to bottom and the engine is completely rebuilt. Mechanically the engine seems to function fine once started and has been driven enough miles to be considered a good rebuild. My only guess other than timing is that something was done wrong on the injectors, but I find that unlikely. Air getting into the system, not that I can tell. Thanks.

 

You may be getting air into the system before the engine. Fuel lines from the tank to the lift pump can suck air. Rust behind the retaining clips along the frame will let air in. Even at 90 degrees the glow plugs should come on for a bit.

Pull the fuel filter after it sits overnight, if it's not full of fuel, you have air intrusion from somewhere.

As far as timing goes, the timing would have to be way, way off for it too affect starting.
If the engine doesn't sound kind of like a power stroke when you first start, you can advance the timing a bit. Move the IP about the thickness of a dime (or a bit less) toward the passenger side.

 

Disagree; timing has a significant effect on starting. Every truck is different when it comes to the factory timing mark, so some may find it to be less of an issue, but if its retarted too much it WILL be hard to start (not enough heat retention).

When I'm at my factory timing mark it is VERY hard starting; once I time it there is no problem.

Also, at 200$/hr, I'd recommend ordering a Ferret adapter, since they cost that much and then you can time yourself whenever you need to!

 

Thanks mistakenID. I will look more closely at my lines and see if there is intrusion. I mostly focused on looking for leaks up front but I never worried about it too much because normally I get air out of the schrader valve on the filter (water separator always seemed to be the problem).

NorthernDiesel, thanks for the pointers. I figured the timing is more important than people have been telling me because a lot of these diesel shops seem to look at the the old idi's with a kind of who really cares, it's an old international mentality.

Since you seem to have experience with timing on these things, have you noticed any overall power gain once you got the timing done properly? Also, what is a Ferret adapter? I'm familiar with how they are timed but I just started looking for the systems and I'm not sure what's available.

 

I agree, if the timing is too retarded, the compression never gets high enough to ignite the fuel. If you are in-line with the factory marks, it won't hurt you any to advance it a dime or maybe more. I know mine has to be advanced quite a bit to get to the correct timing and I have a meter to check it with.

 

Thanks. I may play around with it to see if I can get starting easier until I can get it timed dead on. Once I get it timed right I plan on making my own mark.

 

I'd have to say I didn't notice more power, but my fuel economy improved after timing, which tells me it did improve the power and I was just compensating with more pedal!

The Ferret adapter is a small unit that senses the pulse of pressure in #1 injection line via a piezo clamp and sends an equivalent electrical pulse through a loop of wire. A traditional gasser timing light can then be used, using the loop as if it were a spark plug wire. I got one online (Tool Discounter - 190$) and it works very well. Made a quick job of getting timed up. Only thing is, if you don't already have a timing light you need to buy or borrow one with a timing advance function. I think the one I bought was ~60$.

The Ferret is the only unit in a reasonable price range that's still in production, as far as I know, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

Sounds like that's the way to go. My light does have the timing advance so I'm halfway there. I thought I'd have to buy a diesel specific timing light but having an adapter would be better. Better mileage, I like that idea. Between hauling my boat and the fuel my boat uses I can use every ounce.

Thanks for the tip. I'll check those out, see if they're still around.

 

"I agree, if the timing is too retarded, the compression never gets high enough to ignite the fuel."

Timing, whether it's injection pump timing or valve timing has nothing to do with compression.

I never said the injection pump timing doesn't matter. You have a fresh engine, and you say new top to bottom. With that information, setting the injection pump at the factory timing marks should not make a hard start issue.

 

I thought as well that timing would be a factor but not enough to cause such hard starts. But I don't know. I figure I'll get the timing right and then see what else I'm missing. I only have about 1000 miles on it right now and I thought that before break in stage it might have less compression and that along with not being timed..............
Anyway. People have different opinions about when those engines break in and how much of an effect it has. While we are on the subject, what do you think about break in?

 

i like to break things down in steps.
the starting system.
the batteries,the cables,connectors,and starter,alt.
what condition are these in?
before worrying about actual firing.first focus on cranking speed.
get the engine turning over REAL fast for starters.
if you jump past this step,you can forget about ever having a "new like" quick starting diesel engine.
if you think it's hard to start at 90 degree's,you can write it off come winter.


next,how is the compression?
freshly rebuilt engine in your case,so lets assume its good.
or should we? have you done a compression check? results?

glow plug system.
whats the condition?
is it a manual switch now,and what brand of glow plugs?
how are all the wires? did you test not only the GP's but the power going to the gp's?
results?

fuel system.
is the engine getting fuel?
now that every thing else checks out,now its time to get her to actually fire up and start good.
have you done a flow and pressure test yet?
new ip and injectors are only half the battle,and worthless if they are not in proper time.

having a pre on board computer isn't without its cons.this means there is nothing to set and adjust the timing for us.it needs to be done manually before such pleasures existed.
you can't have your cake and eat it too.if you like old simplicity,all is good.but this means the engine needs your hands on assistance to start and run optimally once in a while.

 

Indeed, those of us that work alone have to go in steps. Nobody watching my back you see.

All cables check out, batteries proper cranking amps, charging, all wiring good. Starter was most recent on my list before getting the money for the timing system. I already talked to kenpobuck about that and payed the extra money for a Mitsubishi starter. Spins good and fast.

Glow plugs are Bosch and they're on the manual switch and everything checks out.

Fuel flow checked out when motor was first started and nothing has changed since so I can safely assume it's still good, at least until other basics are taken care of.

Yeah, on compression. I know my timing is off so I will fix that and then cylinder compression is next on my list. Don't scare me! If I have to pull that engine out I might just put in a Cummins, and none of us want that! But seriously, I will check it when my timing is on. That's why I'm wondering about the break in. I have done a lot of work on these engines but this is my first one rebuilt. Maybe I will check on compression tomorrow anyway. Doesn't take very long and you got me curious.

 

Ahhh. Thanks for those specs. I just noticed them. My brother has my book so I was going to have to pull those off line anyway.

I put this particular one together for absolute simplicity and then I went and did the 4r100 Baumann control. So much for that.