View Poll Results: Should pit bulls be banned?
Yes. They're too damned dangerous to be considered simple family 'pets'
9
10.98%
No. Just make sure existing ordinances are enforced
5
6.10%
1-strike/you're out. Catch the dog unsecured ONCE, it's destroyed.
1
1.22%
It's the owners, stupid
34
41.46%
Regulate the breed like other exotic big dangerous cats, etc.
4
4.88%
Pit bulls and their owners get a bad rap, incidents are overblown
4
4.88%
Other dogs bite too! Why don't you ban them?
13
15.85%
End the breed. Criminalize breeding, and buying and selling of pit bulls
12
14.63%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll
The Case For Banning Pit Bulls
#31
01-14-2011, 06:58 AM
Good post, Tim.
I voted "It's the owners..."
I have a friend who has had a couple pit bulls over the years. They shouldn't be chained up, for one. That will make them very mean. They also can't be allowed to run free. My friend who lives in a semi-rural area made that mistake with his last pit bull--it cost him the price of a hog, but he put the dog down after she came back with blood all over her snout. Part of the problem was that he also had a young black lab at the time--the two took to "exploring", and apparently a bit of the pack mentality kicked in. He hasn't had one since (the black lab got hit by a car not long after).
Over the years, I've noticed that because dogs are territorial, they also respect territory. Neighborhood dogs that run free (I HATE that) learn really quick what MY territory is. I keep a pellet gun around and use the pointed "hunting" pellets. Cats tend to learn, too, and no rabbit is safe (my wife has a garden).
I love dogs, don't get me wrong, but the reason I don't have one is because I don't like them in the house, and I don't have a fenced yard (don't want to put one up on this property, either, for several reasons). I believe dogs have to be contained or supervised, and medium to large dogs, even if supervised, shouldn't be allowed to run free outside a fenced area, they need to be on a leash.
Jason
I voted "It's the owners..."
I have a friend who has had a couple pit bulls over the years. They shouldn't be chained up, for one. That will make them very mean. They also can't be allowed to run free. My friend who lives in a semi-rural area made that mistake with his last pit bull--it cost him the price of a hog, but he put the dog down after she came back with blood all over her snout. Part of the problem was that he also had a young black lab at the time--the two took to "exploring", and apparently a bit of the pack mentality kicked in. He hasn't had one since (the black lab got hit by a car not long after).
Over the years, I've noticed that because dogs are territorial, they also respect territory. Neighborhood dogs that run free (I HATE that) learn really quick what MY territory is. I keep a pellet gun around and use the pointed "hunting" pellets. Cats tend to learn, too, and no rabbit is safe (my wife has a garden).
I love dogs, don't get me wrong, but the reason I don't have one is because I don't like them in the house, and I don't have a fenced yard (don't want to put one up on this property, either, for several reasons). I believe dogs have to be contained or supervised, and medium to large dogs, even if supervised, shouldn't be allowed to run free outside a fenced area, they need to be on a leash.
Jason
#32
01-14-2011, 07:17 AM
My Pitt is a baby and proven great around kids and other dogs. You guys who never had one should shut up. The problem with the breed is their loyalty to their owners and family. They will fight till death to protect. Those of you that think that is bad should look at what you would do too protect your family. Simply comes down to ignorance. I've had cops tell me they are more skeptical about German shepards. My dog was attacked by a dalmatian.
You should be promoting the plus side of your breed to the public. Not enforcing the negative aspect of ignorance of the owners.
#33
01-14-2011, 07:31 AM
Hmmmm, how did I miss this?
Do you really need to ask how I feel?
There are a couple of choices I could have gone with, but in the end I decided the least biased answer I could give was "the laws already in place need to be enforced"
Edit: quite frankly I think Steve is using the 'divide and conquer' strategy to bias the results, but then again I am a conspiracy theorist.
The owners of the two dogs you mentioned should be arrested for manslaughter.
I'm sick and tired of nanny laws, even more fed up with media sensationalism and ignorant, violent thugs who own a devoted powerful dog because they are insecure about their 'manhood'.
My dog has proven time and again her tender, caring nature as a certified therapy dog visiting both children's hospitals and nursing homes.
She shrugs off pokes in the eye, pulled ears, deranged Alzhimers patients, you name it...
Do I think she deserves to be killed because of her breed? Not any more than I feel that all (insert race, creed or religion here) do.
Oh, and dohc_chump forgot American Bulldog, Bull Terrier & the British Pit & Bull Terrier.
You tell me which one to fear, and which one to kill.
Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull
Do you really need to ask how I feel?
There are a couple of choices I could have gone with, but in the end I decided the least biased answer I could give was "the laws already in place need to be enforced"
Edit: quite frankly I think Steve is using the 'divide and conquer' strategy to bias the results, but then again I am a conspiracy theorist.
The owners of the two dogs you mentioned should be arrested for manslaughter.
I'm sick and tired of nanny laws, even more fed up with media sensationalism and ignorant, violent thugs who own a devoted powerful dog because they are insecure about their 'manhood'.
My dog has proven time and again her tender, caring nature as a certified therapy dog visiting both children's hospitals and nursing homes.
She shrugs off pokes in the eye, pulled ears, deranged Alzhimers patients, you name it...
Do I think she deserves to be killed because of her breed? Not any more than I feel that all (insert race, creed or religion here) do.
Oh, and dohc_chump forgot American Bulldog, Bull Terrier & the British Pit & Bull Terrier.
You tell me which one to fear, and which one to kill.
Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull
#34
01-14-2011, 07:50 AM
I would hardly suggest that ANY terrier is a dog for everyone. They are very smart and active. Most dog owners just don't want to engage their pet at all.
They'd be happier and better served with a piece of furniture.
I have been bitten by far more Jack Russel's, Retrievers, Spaniels and Shepard's than 'Pitt's',(of all variety's) and that includes a lot of these dogs that were neglected, abused and fought.
ANY dog that has a record of unprovoked attack on humans should be destroyed, but they should be judged on a case by case basis IMO. Let the **** slinging continue....
They'd be happier and better served with a piece of furniture.
I have been bitten by far more Jack Russel's, Retrievers, Spaniels and Shepard's than 'Pitt's',(of all variety's) and that includes a lot of these dogs that were neglected, abused and fought.
ANY dog that has a record of unprovoked attack on humans should be destroyed, but they should be judged on a case by case basis IMO. Let the **** slinging continue....
#35
01-14-2011, 09:07 AM
This is just one link:
U.S. Dog Bite Statistics - DogsBite.org
Obviously, it's not all-inclusive........But it's a decent primer. I've been scanning several sites for actual statistics. There ARE a couple of things about pit bulls (and rotties) that DO stand out, however (although the 2nd point is more about the pits....).
1. The fatal attacks and severe maulings committed by pit bulls and rotties are more likely to be the dogs FIRST noted attack (in other words, it's not just an increasing history of aggressiveness on the dogs' part....)
2. The pit bull breeds are more likely to be involved in attacks OFF OF THEIR OWN PROPERTY than other breeds. In other words, they're not just being protective and territorial. This, perhaps is the most glaring statistic. It's all fine and dandy if you have a loving family pet, are responsible, and the dog never leaves it's property.
But for the ones which DO escape? Then they're on the prowl.
***Fatal dog maulings are still relatively rare (in the high 30s per year currently), but are increasing. This number does not reflect those attacked and maimed, however....and it doesn't reflect peoples' pets being attacked and killed by aggressive and dangerous dogs.
U.S. Dog Bite Statistics - DogsBite.org
Obviously, it's not all-inclusive........But it's a decent primer. I've been scanning several sites for actual statistics. There ARE a couple of things about pit bulls (and rotties) that DO stand out, however (although the 2nd point is more about the pits....).
1. The fatal attacks and severe maulings committed by pit bulls and rotties are more likely to be the dogs FIRST noted attack (in other words, it's not just an increasing history of aggressiveness on the dogs' part....)
2. The pit bull breeds are more likely to be involved in attacks OFF OF THEIR OWN PROPERTY than other breeds. In other words, they're not just being protective and territorial. This, perhaps is the most glaring statistic. It's all fine and dandy if you have a loving family pet, are responsible, and the dog never leaves it's property.
But for the ones which DO escape? Then they're on the prowl.
***Fatal dog maulings are still relatively rare (in the high 30s per year currently), but are increasing. This number does not reflect those attacked and maimed, however....and it doesn't reflect peoples' pets being attacked and killed by aggressive and dangerous dogs.
#36
01-14-2011, 09:53 AM
Steve,
I think it says more about their owners and how they were raised than the dog itself when one is found roaming off their own property.
My dog knows the boundries and will NOT leave the yard, even while chasing a squirrel.
When a dog is allowed to roam the neighborhood, that entire neighborhood IS it's 'territory'
No one really has any idea of just how many of this 'breed' are out there.
Criminals and even just families in the 'hood will rarely consider to bring their dog to the vet, let alone license it with the city/county/state.
If there are at least three times as many 'Pit Bull Type' dogs as any other specific breed out there, is it any surprise that we see more bites from them?
Statistics are only as valid as the information imputed to the equation, and most of them are very dated because the CDC stopped tracking by breed in 1999.
http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreation...ogbreeds-a.pdf
In general, what percentage of dogs owned are Malamutes/Husky's/Hybrids?
Why aren't these lumped together as "Pit Bulls" are???
Edit to add link: Pit Bull facts (just as biased, perhaps, but relevant to this conversation)
There was a CDC documented fatality by a Pomeranian a decade ago.
("Girl Killed by Family Dog," Los Angeles Times, Monday, October 9, 2000, Home Edition, Metro Section, Page B-5.)
Really??? How ****ing stupid can you be?
I think it says more about their owners and how they were raised than the dog itself when one is found roaming off their own property.
My dog knows the boundries and will NOT leave the yard, even while chasing a squirrel.
When a dog is allowed to roam the neighborhood, that entire neighborhood IS it's 'territory'
No one really has any idea of just how many of this 'breed' are out there.
Criminals and even just families in the 'hood will rarely consider to bring their dog to the vet, let alone license it with the city/county/state.
If there are at least three times as many 'Pit Bull Type' dogs as any other specific breed out there, is it any surprise that we see more bites from them?
Statistics are only as valid as the information imputed to the equation, and most of them are very dated because the CDC stopped tracking by breed in 1999.
http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreation...ogbreeds-a.pdf
In general, what percentage of dogs owned are Malamutes/Husky's/Hybrids?
Why aren't these lumped together as "Pit Bulls" are???
Edit to add link: Pit Bull facts (just as biased, perhaps, but relevant to this conversation)
There was a CDC documented fatality by a Pomeranian a decade ago.
("Girl Killed by Family Dog," Los Angeles Times, Monday, October 9, 2000, Home Edition, Metro Section, Page B-5.)
Really??? How ****ing stupid can you be?
#37
01-14-2011, 10:12 AM
Jim.
IMO, it points mainly to the 2 listed characteristics of the breed I listed above. That AND the fact that when attacks DO occur, pits tend to go for the kill.......The link I posted in the OP is a good illustration of this. Note how after the grandmother attacked and the cop arrived, the GD dog came at THEM (and actually the cop said the dog was coming back at the 5-year old girl) because they were getting in the way of the dog finishing off it's kill......
I DO agree about the ownership thing, which is why I almost picked the 'treat like exotic animal' thingee.....Where owners and/or prospective owners would need to be licensed and show that they actually have proper facilities to maintain and contain the animal/pet. IMO, this would keep pits out of the hands of s--theads who just want a badass animal, and would keep the 'pet' chained to a tree...or 'contained' in a less-than-secure pen or yard....where the chances of the animal escaping off of it's own territory and killing or maiming an innocent person or someone else' pet is greater.
Under the 'licensing/exotic' scenario also....BREEDING would be strictly regulated....as would buying and selling.....No more puppy mills with fly-by-night breeders pumping out pit bulls by the bucketload for sale to drug dealers and dog fighters or irresponsible owners who just want the 'baddest' doggie around.
Lots of factors here. I'm trying to keep an open mind. Dog ownership in general is about responsibility...absolutely. IMO, with breeds like pit bulls, even much more so.....And unfortunately for the reputable pit owner.......the disreputable or irresponsible ones seem to make up an increasing percentage of ownership.
IMO, it points mainly to the 2 listed characteristics of the breed I listed above. That AND the fact that when attacks DO occur, pits tend to go for the kill.......The link I posted in the OP is a good illustration of this. Note how after the grandmother attacked and the cop arrived, the GD dog came at THEM (and actually the cop said the dog was coming back at the 5-year old girl) because they were getting in the way of the dog finishing off it's kill......
I DO agree about the ownership thing, which is why I almost picked the 'treat like exotic animal' thingee.....Where owners and/or prospective owners would need to be licensed and show that they actually have proper facilities to maintain and contain the animal/pet. IMO, this would keep pits out of the hands of s--theads who just want a badass animal, and would keep the 'pet' chained to a tree...or 'contained' in a less-than-secure pen or yard....where the chances of the animal escaping off of it's own territory and killing or maiming an innocent person or someone else' pet is greater.
Under the 'licensing/exotic' scenario also....BREEDING would be strictly regulated....as would buying and selling.....No more puppy mills with fly-by-night breeders pumping out pit bulls by the bucketload for sale to drug dealers and dog fighters or irresponsible owners who just want the 'baddest' doggie around.
Lots of factors here. I'm trying to keep an open mind. Dog ownership in general is about responsibility...absolutely. IMO, with breeds like pit bulls, even much more so.....And unfortunately for the reputable pit owner.......the disreputable or irresponsible ones seem to make up an increasing percentage of ownership.
#38
01-14-2011, 10:26 AM
#39
01-14-2011, 12:45 PM
Sorry, man....In THIS case, one has to 'profile'........All that including ALL pet owners would do would be to needlessly spread enforcement resources too thinly......IMO.....Not all breeds are equally dangerous here.....Most aren't even in the same universe....
Sounds harsh, but I cannot see an equal comparison between, say, the family labrador in it's own home biting a child that is pulling on it's tail......and a pit bull that escapes it's confines and kills and attempts to eat a neighborhood child (or someone else' pet) walking on his or her merry way bothering no one......
Just trying to be honest here. 'Exotic' usually includes the term 'dangerous'......Like folks who own large wildcats.......ape species.....etc.. (remember the lady who had her face eaten, i think up in New England a couple of years ago by her friends pet chimpanzee?).....
Some species and breeds just NEED more regulation than others by their innate ability (and sometimes propensity) to maim and kill the general public. I believe pit bulls fit in this category. Whether most of the blame should lie with the gross number of 'bad' owners and breeders or not....I believe that the need is there.
(side note). The 'end the breed' and 'ban the breed' choices did NOT involve going into homes and seizing and destroying those dogs currently owned......Innocent until proven guilty......But the breed would be allowed to die out....
Sounds harsh, but I cannot see an equal comparison between, say, the family labrador in it's own home biting a child that is pulling on it's tail......and a pit bull that escapes it's confines and kills and attempts to eat a neighborhood child (or someone else' pet) walking on his or her merry way bothering no one......
Just trying to be honest here. 'Exotic' usually includes the term 'dangerous'......Like folks who own large wildcats.......ape species.....etc.. (remember the lady who had her face eaten, i think up in New England a couple of years ago by her friends pet chimpanzee?).....
Some species and breeds just NEED more regulation than others by their innate ability (and sometimes propensity) to maim and kill the general public. I believe pit bulls fit in this category. Whether most of the blame should lie with the gross number of 'bad' owners and breeders or not....I believe that the need is there.
(side note). The 'end the breed' and 'ban the breed' choices did NOT involve going into homes and seizing and destroying those dogs currently owned......Innocent until proven guilty......But the breed would be allowed to die out....
#40
01-14-2011, 01:30 PM
#41
01-14-2011, 01:47 PM
(Just trying to add some levity before anyone gets too upset.)
Enforce existing laws. Pitbulls may have a different attitude than most breeds, but they are containable. Also, hold owners accountable for dog attacks that could have been avoided. No need to eradicate the breed.
#42
01-14-2011, 02:05 PM
This space for rent...
I'm surprised that no one mentioned that the girl was attacked on the dog owner's property. I don't have kids, but if I did, I wouldn't leave my small child outside alone with dogs that are simply chained up. Dogs are just too damn tempting for kids. I can't tell you how many times I've been outside with my dogs and have had kids flock over to try and pet them. If I wasn't there to tell them "No" imagine what might happen. Just like I need to take responsibility for my dogs, people need to take responsibility for their children. Again, it's horrible that this happened, but shouldn't someone have been better supervising a 5 year old child outside?
As for raising dogs right, I still believe in it. We have a family in our neighborhood, who should not have dogs. The father brought home a female pit puppy. She would get loose all the time and head on over to my place. I'd scoop her up, get a million kisses as I walked her back over, and returned her. One of my friends in the neighborhood lives next door to them. One day his wife was in the kitchen and heard the dog yelping and kids laughing. She looked out the window and the families 6 YEAR OLD child was beating the puppy (only a few months old) with the buckle end of the belt over and over while a circle of kids laughed. She ran out and stopped the kids, asking him why he would be doing this, he told her he wanted his dog to be tough. She called Animal Control, but the father got rid of her before they showed up. I can't imagine how many times I returned this pup to this torture and feel horrible as hell. A few months later they got ANOTHER pit puppy. What would you grow up to be if the only love you were shown was getting beaten?
The other problem I see, is that dogs are not meant to be solely chained up or penned. A dog needs a sense of purpose. It also needs to be part of a pack, whether that pack is made up of his human family or other dogs. A dog needs rules and structure, that's what a pack does. A strong willed dog, needs a strong willed pack leader or it will take that position from you. When your family dog thinks it's the Alpha in the pack, bad things can and do happen regardless of the breed. This is why certain breeds are not a good match for people who've never had dogs or just don't have the ability to be an assertive pack leader.
I have a pack of three dogs, a German Shepard mix, a Dobie/Rottie mix, and a Australian Shepard mix. There is not a question in their minds as to who the Alpha is. I always eat before they do and they are not allowed to be around me when I eat. I always enter a room or doorway before they do. If they're in my way walking through the house I make them move instead of walking over them. I enforce my pack leadership by picking up their bowls of food while they eat and taking bones from them when they are chewing on them. If I place a treat on the floor they will wait till I give them the "OK" command to take it. It's nearly impossible to teach a dog sitting at the end of a chain or one who's penned up this type of structure. They are "lone wolves" so to speak. Just like it's our responsibility to teach, lead, and discipline our children, we have the same responsibility to our dogs.
As for raising dogs right, I still believe in it. We have a family in our neighborhood, who should not have dogs. The father brought home a female pit puppy. She would get loose all the time and head on over to my place. I'd scoop her up, get a million kisses as I walked her back over, and returned her. One of my friends in the neighborhood lives next door to them. One day his wife was in the kitchen and heard the dog yelping and kids laughing. She looked out the window and the families 6 YEAR OLD child was beating the puppy (only a few months old) with the buckle end of the belt over and over while a circle of kids laughed. She ran out and stopped the kids, asking him why he would be doing this, he told her he wanted his dog to be tough. She called Animal Control, but the father got rid of her before they showed up. I can't imagine how many times I returned this pup to this torture and feel horrible as hell. A few months later they got ANOTHER pit puppy. What would you grow up to be if the only love you were shown was getting beaten?
The other problem I see, is that dogs are not meant to be solely chained up or penned. A dog needs a sense of purpose. It also needs to be part of a pack, whether that pack is made up of his human family or other dogs. A dog needs rules and structure, that's what a pack does. A strong willed dog, needs a strong willed pack leader or it will take that position from you. When your family dog thinks it's the Alpha in the pack, bad things can and do happen regardless of the breed. This is why certain breeds are not a good match for people who've never had dogs or just don't have the ability to be an assertive pack leader.
I have a pack of three dogs, a German Shepard mix, a Dobie/Rottie mix, and a Australian Shepard mix. There is not a question in their minds as to who the Alpha is. I always eat before they do and they are not allowed to be around me when I eat. I always enter a room or doorway before they do. If they're in my way walking through the house I make them move instead of walking over them. I enforce my pack leadership by picking up their bowls of food while they eat and taking bones from them when they are chewing on them. If I place a treat on the floor they will wait till I give them the "OK" command to take it. It's nearly impossible to teach a dog sitting at the end of a chain or one who's penned up this type of structure. They are "lone wolves" so to speak. Just like it's our responsibility to teach, lead, and discipline our children, we have the same responsibility to our dogs.
#43
01-14-2011, 02:50 PM
Hotshot
#44
01-14-2011, 03:02 PM
I love a good debate, Steve, and this is no exception. But this is a great example of sensationalism at it's finest.
Here's why:
So, 77.5 million "owned" dogs, which says nothing for strays. ~39 dog-related deaths per year. This equals 0.0005 percent of dogs have killed someone, assuming each death is caused by one dog. This is not the case all the time, but we can't get perfect statistics here!
So deer are more than four times more deadly than ANY dog, let alone pit bulls. Are we going to regulate them? Exterminate them? "End the breed?"
In 2009 we had 33,808 people loose their lives to traffic accidents. Therefore cars are nearly 1,000 TIMES MORE DANGEROUS than ANY dog, including pit bulls. Are we going to ban them? Ban the sale allowing them to die out? Send them all to the crusher?
In 2008 we had 13,846 people loose their lives in traffic accidents where alcohol is involved. Let's make alcohol illegal! Oh wait, that's been tried before...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The simple truth is that the vast, overwhelming majority of pit bulls as well as all other breeds of dogs are great animals that do not attack and kill people.
It's not the dog's fault that lots of meatheads like to own them and make them vicious. Incidents where dogs attack and kill people are EXTREMELY rare, and are likely less common than ANY commonly known cause of death.
There are MANY THOUSANDS of pit bulls that are out there today that have never hurt anyone. Don't let media attention and the occasional tragic death make you think these animals are dangerous. The numbers speak for themselves.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sources-
http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/...tatistics.html
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/car-d...ed-states.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_U.S._by_year
http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-dr...tatistics.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vio..._United_States
Here's why:
Originally Posted by humanesociety.org
There are approximately 77.5 million owned dogs in the United States
Comparing this statistic with the 150 human deaths caused in 2004 by auto-deer collisions...
In 2009 we had 33,808 people loose their lives to traffic accidents. Therefore cars are nearly 1,000 TIMES MORE DANGEROUS than ANY dog, including pit bulls. Are we going to ban them? Ban the sale allowing them to die out? Send them all to the crusher?
In 2008 we had 13,846 people loose their lives in traffic accidents where alcohol is involved. Let's make alcohol illegal! Oh wait, that's been tried before...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The simple truth is that the vast, overwhelming majority of pit bulls as well as all other breeds of dogs are great animals that do not attack and kill people.
It's not the dog's fault that lots of meatheads like to own them and make them vicious. Incidents where dogs attack and kill people are EXTREMELY rare, and are likely less common than ANY commonly known cause of death.
There are MANY THOUSANDS of pit bulls that are out there today that have never hurt anyone. Don't let media attention and the occasional tragic death make you think these animals are dangerous. The numbers speak for themselves.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sources-
http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/...tatistics.html
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/car-d...ed-states.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_U.S._by_year
http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-dr...tatistics.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vio..._United_States
Last edited by Tom; 01-14-2011 at 03:07 PM. Reason: Edit to provide sources
#45
01-14-2011, 03:03 PM
But dogs are 'animals'.....'property'.....And comparing them to humans......well......they are NOT human beings accorded constitutional rights.....Any due process, rights, etc. related to animals and pets refer to the actions society takes against the owners of the property......i.e. against other human beings.
Prevailing sentiments about dogs and cats being 'family members' notwithstanding.....