Towing question
Cargo Master
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,885
Likes: 26
From: Chino, California
Joe, I was at Bryce a few months ago and the fuel they sell in UT was 85 octane for regular. I was a bit concerned and put in the middle grade 89 octane I believe because the manual said to use no less than 87.
Did you have any issues with the lower octane?
Did you have any issues with the lower octane?
Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,308
Likes: 250
From: Hartford, WI
Problem with lower octane is that unless you have a scanner hooked up, you don't know if it is pinging or not. If it is, the PCM will retard timing accordingly and thus you have less power. So what you save on fuel probably will be burnt up when the PCM retards timing.
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 597
Likes: 1
Joe you got me jealous talking about your planned trips while I am stuck here at work and my TT in the driveway 
I have to 2nd what you said about the Ex with the V-10 (and 4.30) being one capable TV. I also figured out to drive at 70 mph (3200 rpms) and that would cut down the downshifting on the smaller grades. The steepest grade I would take would be the ones near Chattanooga, TN on the way to FL and that was the only time my trans downshifted into 2nd gear (pedal floored) but it maintained 60 mph. My E350 had a 3.73 (or less) and I had to take the OD of if driving at 60 mph because the motor would lug if I had to accelerate. I'm a firm believer in the steeper gear if towing heavy trailers. I went to the dark side (GM) but now need another SUV so been looking at Ex's again.
Joe
I have to 2nd what you said about the Ex with the V-10 (and 4.30) being one capable TV. I also figured out to drive at 70 mph (3200 rpms) and that would cut down the downshifting on the smaller grades. The steepest grade I would take would be the ones near Chattanooga, TN on the way to FL and that was the only time my trans downshifted into 2nd gear (pedal floored) but it maintained 60 mph. My E350 had a 3.73 (or less) and I had to take the OD of if driving at 60 mph because the motor would lug if I had to accelerate. I'm a firm believer in the steeper gear if towing heavy trailers. I went to the dark side (GM) but now need another SUV so been looking at Ex's again.
Joe
People just like to hear themselves talk even if it isn't factually based...
I KNOW what my little 'ole V10 is capable of and she is reliable and plenty strong for what I do...and I have no reservations about taking her anywhere...
In fact...I'm in the process of planning a close to 3 week trip next summer that includes the Rockies again (northern ones)...Teddy Roosevelt NP in ND, Glacier NP in Montana and then out thru Idaho with the farthest west reaching Spokane WA and then back thru Yellowstone, Devils Tower, Rushmore, Badlands and home...all told it will be in the 4500-5000 mile range...and I have NO concerns about the V10 rolling at 17,000#'s combined taking me and my family there and back...real world experiences trump chest thumping blow hards everyday ... because we all know that they are trying to justify spending $6000 to $8000 MORE for a truck than I did because it has a diesel in it and they spend MORE for fuel with each fill up and when you factor in cost per mile it is a virtual dead heat except I still have the extra $6000 to $8000 that funds my vacations...but I have no real opinion or real world experience with towing with a V10! LOL
Joe.
I KNOW what my little 'ole V10 is capable of and she is reliable and plenty strong for what I do...and I have no reservations about taking her anywhere...
In fact...I'm in the process of planning a close to 3 week trip next summer that includes the Rockies again (northern ones)...Teddy Roosevelt NP in ND, Glacier NP in Montana and then out thru Idaho with the farthest west reaching Spokane WA and then back thru Yellowstone, Devils Tower, Rushmore, Badlands and home...all told it will be in the 4500-5000 mile range...and I have NO concerns about the V10 rolling at 17,000#'s combined taking me and my family there and back...real world experiences trump chest thumping blow hards everyday ... because we all know that they are trying to justify spending $6000 to $8000 MORE for a truck than I did because it has a diesel in it and they spend MORE for fuel with each fill up and when you factor in cost per mile it is a virtual dead heat except I still have the extra $6000 to $8000 that funds my vacations...but I have no real opinion or real world experience with towing with a V10! LOL
Joe.
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 12,237
Likes: 22
From: Florida
That said..I do believe I tended to alternate my fill-ups (low octane/higher octane) since I don't burn my tank all the way to the bare bottom...so at least I had something more than 85 in the tank at all times...problem is that it takes some time for the electronics to 'learn' if you will so...
As far as noticing any problems...well...I sure didn't hear any pinging or seem to suffer any power losses as I easily made it up and over every mountain pass I have ever put infront of my Ex...so...I'd say that in all the miles I've towed...it hasn't been a problem yet...I'm sure my mpg's have suffered though...they have too...simple physics actually for what power there is to burn versus what load I am asking my motor to motivate!
Hope that helps...nothing scientific...just my seat of the pants experiences.
Joe.
Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,308
Likes: 250
From: Hartford, WI
Most/many high altitude places including Denver sell 85 octane too...from what I was told (not sure if I necessarily buy it) that automobiles sold after 1984 have had anti-knock sensors/electronics installed and the fact that you are at altitude and your air is less dense there is less power to be made anyway so burning 85 octane isn't "supposed" to be an issue since the anti-knock electronics will retard timing to avoid damaging knock...
That said..I do believe I tended to alternate my fill-ups (low octane/higher octane) since I don't burn my tank all the way to the bare bottom...so at least I had something more than 85 in the tank at all times...problem is that it takes some time for the electronics to 'learn' if you will so...
As far as noticing any problems...well...I sure didn't hear any pinging or seem to suffer any power losses as I easily made it up and over every mountain pass I have ever put infront of my Ex...so...I'd say that in all the miles I've towed...it hasn't been a problem yet...I'm sure my mpg's have suffered though...they have too...simple physics actually for what power there is to burn versus what load I am asking my motor to motivate!
Hope that helps...nothing scientific...just my seat of the pants experiences.
Joe.
That said..I do believe I tended to alternate my fill-ups (low octane/higher octane) since I don't burn my tank all the way to the bare bottom...so at least I had something more than 85 in the tank at all times...problem is that it takes some time for the electronics to 'learn' if you will so...
As far as noticing any problems...well...I sure didn't hear any pinging or seem to suffer any power losses as I easily made it up and over every mountain pass I have ever put infront of my Ex...so...I'd say that in all the miles I've towed...it hasn't been a problem yet...I'm sure my mpg's have suffered though...they have too...simple physics actually for what power there is to burn versus what load I am asking my motor to motivate!
Hope that helps...nothing scientific...just my seat of the pants experiences.
Joe.
I guess I never saw the sense in that since you can run the correct fuel and not have to alternate. Save 20 cents this fill up on 87 and spend 20 cents more next fill up on 93. Why not just go with the recommended fuel if it is 89 and be done with it.
If you can feel pinging, it means the ECM is unable to retard the timing enough. I would think at that point you have more issues like the motor is coming apart and it is hearing the bearings and what not.
Cargo Master
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,885
Likes: 26
From: Chino, California
Thanks, Joe/Aklim. So from Aklim's explaination, the rumor about getting more mpg's using higher octane fuel is true then. Is this only true at higher elevation?
Here in Calif., regular unleaded is 87 octane. I forget, does ethanol in fuel boost octane or lowers it?
Here in Calif., regular unleaded is 87 octane. I forget, does ethanol in fuel boost octane or lowers it?
Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,308
Likes: 250
From: Hartford, WI
I don't think it does it either way in practical senses since the gas manufacturers will somehow make the mix come out to 87 octane. E85 can have a higher octane though.
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 12,237
Likes: 22
From: Florida
not sure if this is in response to me or not...
by alternating fill ups (only at HIGH ALTITUDES where 85 octane sold)...not all places sold 87 octane so it was either 85 (below recommended 87) or 89 (above recommended)...
I always run 87 (recommended) when I am home and if it is available...but when I couldn't find the recommended is when I did the alternating tanks to try and keep as close to the recommended as I could...
jh,
I'm not sure if ethanol boosts octane...I 'think' it does but I do know ethanol LOWERS overall BTU's available in a gallon of gasoline...a gallon of ethanol has ~72% of the BTU's that a gallon of straight gasoline does...therefore running 10% ethanol blends I have experienced a pretty noticable reduction in mpg's...and I know I am not alone...do a search on here for a small sample...when I can find straight petrol I always try and buy that even if it is a few cents per gallon more...Shell tends to be straight petrol if I remember right...
Joe.
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Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,308
Likes: 250
From: Hartford, WI
by alternating fill ups (only at HIGH ALTITUDES where 85 octane sold)...not all places sold 87 octane so it was either 85 (below recommended 87) or 89 (above recommended)...
I'm not sure if ethanol boosts octane...I 'think' it does but I do know ethanol LOWERS overall BTU's available in a gallon of gasoline...a gallon of ethanol has ~72% of the BTU's that a gallon of straight gasoline does...therefore running 10% ethanol blends I have experienced a pretty noticable reduction in mpg's
I'm not sure if ethanol boosts octane...I 'think' it does but I do know ethanol LOWERS overall BTU's available in a gallon of gasoline...a gallon of ethanol has ~72% of the BTU's that a gallon of straight gasoline does...therefore running 10% ethanol blends I have experienced a pretty noticable reduction in mpg's
With ethanol, you can get higher octane ratings. It is just that the gas company compensates for that and makes it so that the overall octane is lower. IIRC, ethanol does have a higher octane rating. Yes it has less BTU but so what? It gives the politicians something to say about helping the local industry, blah, blah, blah. Personally, if I can run straight gas, I do.
Post Fiend
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 11,314
Likes: 4
Interesting thread guys !
Re Octane - any 'recent' (well running !) engine can run any octane as all engines have knock sensors now... you just lose a bit of hp, probably not even enough to offset the higher fuel cost...
Now the ethanol 'science' has been a maddening media/gooberment push almost as much as 'global warming - climate change- whatever lie they want to call it' for a while !
SO much data on the ethanol myth:
It 'cost' more to produce than it returns in energy,
another costly govt program with junk science at it's core
ethanol is a corrosive - it WILL eat up many engine components if too high a concentration...
(why I keep receipts for all fill ups until I am sure I didn't get a 90% ethanol instead of 10% as it should be...MANY documented cases of even brand new cars that were ruined when they filled up at the wrong place ..)
as stated ethanol has much lower BTU rating than gasoline...
if your btu rating is lower, the hp is lower, i.e. your work energy is lower and your mpg will suffer....
Re Octane - any 'recent' (well running !) engine can run any octane as all engines have knock sensors now... you just lose a bit of hp, probably not even enough to offset the higher fuel cost...
Now the ethanol 'science' has been a maddening media/gooberment push almost as much as 'global warming - climate change- whatever lie they want to call it' for a while !
SO much data on the ethanol myth:
It 'cost' more to produce than it returns in energy,
another costly govt program with junk science at it's core
ethanol is a corrosive - it WILL eat up many engine components if too high a concentration...
(why I keep receipts for all fill ups until I am sure I didn't get a 90% ethanol instead of 10% as it should be...MANY documented cases of even brand new cars that were ruined when they filled up at the wrong place ..)
as stated ethanol has much lower BTU rating than gasoline...
if your btu rating is lower, the hp is lower, i.e. your work energy is lower and your mpg will suffer....
Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,308
Likes: 250
From: Hartford, WI
I think it might not be so noticeable if you drive say 50 miles. I think long distance and towing might show that you lose more than you save.
The only way I would run a lower octane is if I had to and fill up enough to get to the next gas station.
Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,308
Likes: 250
From: Hartford, WI
The gas or diesel engines? I would have thought all gas engines have some sort of device to control knock. I could be wrong.
Postmaster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,171
Likes: 12
From: SE Texas
They do not, Ford "thrifted" the knock sensors from them to save money.
JL
Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,308
Likes: 250
From: Hartford, WI
How much dumber can they get? Hopefully they won't come to the point of being bailed out by the Govt like some company whose name should not be spoken. And I used to be a GM guy.