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Pinging and Loss of power 2004 V10

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  #1  
Old 09-17-2010, 11:53 AM
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Pinging and Loss of power 2004 V10

Hi GUys,
I have searched the archives and it seems a few guys have come across this pinging and power loss but I haven't found a common resolution in any old threads.

Truck is 2004 F350, V10, Auto, 4:30 gears, 30K miles.
I have ALWAYS used 87 octane, towed my 7,000 lb race car trailer at 75-80 mph up all but the biggest hills with not ever a single issue or ping.

I was away for a business trip, truck sat about 10 weeks.
I came home, hooked up my trailer and now I have pinging and no power when climbing hills.

The pinging seems to come in around 2800 - 3000 rpm and gets worse if you rev higher. My truck always used to love to rev up hills 3500 RPM no problem when I drop out of OD to get a run at a hill.

Now, since the problem has appeared if I can keep the OD locked up it will run 80 mph on flat ground no problem especially if I can keep the throttle opening lower and keep the revs around 2200 - 2500.

To date it has NOT thrown any CEL.

In the archives the recommended "simple" fixes I have done.
Reset Computer
Cleaned MAS
New air filter
New Fuel Filter.

I am now to the next tier of diagnosis.
I am thinking possibly:
1) Knock Sensor
2) vacuum leak
3) bad fuel pump?

This truck always ran fantastic, so I do not believe I need a tuner or a re-tune as some have posted in pinging threads

Any suggestions of where to look or how to further diagnose this power loss / pinging is GREATLY appreciated.
Cheers
jimmy pettinato
Scranton, PA
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  #2  
Old 09-17-2010, 08:46 PM
Fordfanatic4life Fordfanatic4life is offline
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wow, your troubles are exactly the same as mine currently..

but i'm 2 steps ahead of you..

i've done new plugs and 10 new COPs... still has same problem..

no CEL's but pings on hills, and def. feels like its down on power even thou it runs perfectly (no miss's/stumbles)

i'm down to O2 sensors/CAT convertor, or fuel pump.. i suppose it could be injectors to..but since it runs/accellerates flawlessly i dont think its injectors.

gunna have the emissions/CAT tested soon to try to narrow it down..

if i had to describe my trucks performance it would say it seems to run as if someone had stuffed a potato in teh exhaust pipe.

once i get my truck tested/fixed i'll be sure to update
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  #3  
Old 09-18-2010, 10:42 AM
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Fordfanatic:
I am thinking this problem is related to fuel delivery (or lack thereof).
If it were ignition based I think we would see it manifest itself across a wider spectrum of conditions and the trucks would have a miss or stumble.
Mine at least,,, doesn't it runs perfectly, until you get into wide throttle openings, higher RPMS where it would be wanting alot of fuel.

I am also thinking if the knock sensor has gone rogue that it would be giving full timing advance, in which case the truck would ping, but likely have lots of power.
Since its pinging and has no power, I'm betting lean condition under high load.
Also switching to 93 octane doesnt seem to matter or help the pinging, so that also (to me) points not to a timing problem but a lean running issue.

I was hoping for clogged fuel filter but I have eliminated that.

I currently have an appointment at a Ford dealer to put the truck on their machine and go through a diagnostic session and see if they uncover anything.

In one of the older pinging threads one of the guys said he found some cracked engine hoses that were causing a vacuum leak. This could certainly be the case, but mine all "visually" look in perfect condition. I'll be digging deeper into that today.
Other people posted about EGR valves, but I dont know if my 2004 has one or not.

Good luck with your diagnosis. I will for certain post any resolution I get here.
Cheers
jimmy p
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Old 09-18-2010, 11:11 AM
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I don't know how much you've run it since the problem started. But, after sitting for 10 weeks, it could just be bad gas.
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Old 09-18-2010, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ak-angler View Post
I don't know how much you've run it since the problem started. But, after sitting for 10 weeks, it could just be bad gas.
Yep, that was my initial thought, but I have since run at least 4 tanks of gas through it, 87, then premium so I have taken bad gas off my list of potential problems.
Inbetween those tanks was when I reset the computer and did the above other attempts at fixing.
The last 3 full tanks have been name brand premium with no change in pinging.

Thanks for the thought, appreciate your contribution to the thread.
Cheers
jimmy
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Old 09-18-2010, 12:00 PM
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I would get a datalogger or scanner of some type that can read the knock sensor PIDs and see if the knock sensor is seeing this pinging, and if in fact the PCM is retarding the timing as a result. With an SCT X3 tuner, it's an easy thing. You might need an Autotap or AutoEnginuity setup, or just get a tuner from Mike

The PCM will only pull 4 degrees of timing, so if the pinging is really bad, it might still not be enough.

Run the gas tank down, put 5 gallons of 93 octane in it and see if the pinging is greatly reduced. If it helps, it's definitely timing/fuel related. I would start there if you don't want to invest money into it up front.
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Old 09-18-2010, 04:18 PM
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yea i also checked for the vacum hose being cracked/broken, but mine seemed fine. still plyable and no visible cracks...

running higher Octane gas in mine def helps get rid of some of the pinging but the overall sence of "less power" remains...

i'm betting its a bad O2, or plugged cat on mine.. my truck has 340K KMs on it..and the exhaust appears to be the factory original..

the truck was originaly a California truck when sold new, so its got minimal rust underneath..

i was wondering about teh knock sensor thou, if it were bad (not working) wouldnt that trip a CEL ???

p.s i didnt see a EGR on my truck either btw which surprized me due to it being a Cali-emissions truck
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Old 09-18-2010, 04:42 PM
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Vacuum Leak, Bad O2 sensor although usually a bad one make it run rich. A bad knock sensor. Check your fuel pressure. If the pressure is too low the PCM will assume more fuel is going into the engine than really is. Some of the better ODB-II readers can read live data like the ScangaugeII. You might want to look at the O2 sensor output to see if it is running lean according to the O2 sensor. You may also have a timing issue are a result of a sensor not reading correctly. Try unplugging the O2 sensor and see if the problem goes away. You will get a code and it should start running on the rich side. I don't know how the Ford knock sensors work but with Subarus it takes a little while for the computer to determine if the sensor is bad or not. During that time, it may ping because the PCM is trying to lean the engine out till it hears a knock. If the sensor is bad it may keep the mixture lean until it eventually figures out that the knock sensor is not working. Then it will go back to running rich and send you a code. I would not run it hard with it running lean or you may crack a piston or something. My money is on the knock sensor. The knock sensor is below the intake manifold near the front in the center. It is a pain to get to but it is possible to get to it without taking the manifold off. You will need one of those little spring loaded grabber things that is about 2 feet long to get it out of there.

Perry
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Old 09-21-2010, 02:01 PM
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Hey Guys,
Does anyone know the operation of the EGR valve as it pertains to our V10s?
I was going over my problem with a parts counter man I am frinedly with and he asked me if I had thought of the EGR Valve or the EGR Vacuum solenoid?

I didnt even know I had these items so I said no.
He showed me the parts, now I have to go find them on the truck.

A failed EGR would make some sense, in that if its flooding the engine with recirculated exhuast gasses when it should be sending fuel and air under load, that would certainly make it down on power and lean.

Any thoughts on this?
Has anyone ever seen one fail and if yes, how does the failure manifest itself?

Thanks
jimmy
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Old 09-21-2010, 11:23 PM
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check to see if your engine even has a EGR..

i dont beleive a 04 does...
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Old 09-21-2010, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordfanatic4life View Post
check to see if your engine even has a EGR..

i dont beleive a 04 does...
Sorry for the newb question, but where is an EGR valve located on a V10 if it has one?
Thanks
jimmy
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Old 09-22-2010, 08:59 AM
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It will be on the left rear side of the intake manifold. And it will be at a funny angle like 45 degrees to the axis of the truck. Mine has a blank off plate there. Look for item 6 on the drawing below.

Click the image to open in full size.

Perry
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Old 09-22-2010, 06:18 PM
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Thanks much. Makes perfect sense, I will look tomorrow.
I'm about to leave on another work trip, so solving this problem will have to wait a bit for me.
Thanks again for the clear drawing.
Cheers
jimmy
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Old 12-17-2010, 01:08 PM
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Hey Guys,
Bumping this thread with some new information.

I dropped my truck off for a diagnostic session at a local independent garage owned by a good friend, long time gearhead, former muti line dealer wrench (20 years), now in business for himself.

I told him what I had done, the symptoms and what the FTE lists suggested.

He had my truck for a week, they checked fuel pressure and delivery volume - OK
Vacuum Leaks via smoke - OK
No codes at all, clean, none pending.
Knock sensor read as working.

I am stumped.
I'm a long time wrench myself, I consider myself a reasonable diagnostic guy but I cannot figure out where the power has gone as well as why its pinging.

This was an overnight change,,, well the truck sat for 6 weeks while I was on the road working and then came home to a different truck.

Anyone have any additional ideas?

As a Recap:
2004 F350 XLT, Auto, DRW, V10, 4.30 gears
30K miles
Until now, ran like an animal.
Towed my enclosed race trailer as fast as I would want to uphill anywhere.

CURRENTLY:
Pinging and low power when towing and empty.
Pinging comes online at wider throttle openings and particularly above 2500 RPM

I have done the following:
New Fuel Filter
New Air Filter
Cleaned Mass Air Sensor
Reset Computer via instructions found here
At no point did the truck ever throw a CEL

Independent Garage did:
Scanned for codes, none current or pending
Smoke test for intake leak - None
Check Fuel pressure - OK
Check Fuel delivery volume - OK
He says knock sensor to be working.
He confirmed my 2004 truck does NOT have an EGR

Stumped.
Any ideas?

Thanks in advance
jimmy p
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Old 12-17-2010, 02:40 PM
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I can add what experience I had.

Jeep Grand Cherokee with a 5.2L. Pinged bad pulling the trailer. Pinged a little not pulling the trailer.

Ended up being a leak in the intake manifold gasket. Worked 100% after that was fixed.
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