Note: I wrote this a while back, before this forum existed. It has been edited for content and readability. Feel free to comment as you wish. -Kerry


*Has anybody looked at the competition's endevour into the truck market lately. I posted part of this as an edit on a message in [the Northwest Chapter Forum] earlier in the [year], and I don't see Ken putting up a forum heading for the competition anytime soon, so.... edit-(well obviously he did).

Every month or so I check out the competition's offerings in the light truck market (1/2 ton-1 ton trucks), just to get ammo in the never ending "who has the better truck" argument with my co-workers, as well as pointing out when one them tells a baldface lie. I really don't like arguing with them, as they always have the comeback that "your truck is crap, cause I said so (and have no viable proof)."

I saw the adds for the new DOdGe truck/ HEMI motor and said to myself: "people need to learn about the difference in hp and torque and the RPM grid." Who cares if you have a peak torque value of 400 lb-ft if that number is at 4000 rpm. I never see my trucks rev anywhere near 4000 rpm, unless I've got them deep in a pit and then what is that torque going to do for me? Get me stuck further (most likely). Most of the automatics of today keep the truck well below these rpm ranges, so they are only numbers anyway. The hp is up in the high rpm range, again at a number that my truck only sees if I smash the pedal, but that's what hp is for: keeping the truck accelerating through the whole ordeal. All the truck companies have that equation about [equal], but they should lower the peak hp down about a grand. Really, if I was racing the truck at a drag strip and not using it as a work vehicle, then I'd worry about the hp at 4000 rpm.

The Ford lovers should educate your truck loving bretheren that engine torque at LOW rpm's are the numbers to look for when you buying a truck. That's why I like the Ford commercial when Bill says "we want to be known for our torque." When you have a peak torque, in a gas engine, at a reasonable rpm, then you're talking useable numbers, not smoke. Guess the other guys need to go back to OHC engine school and learn how to build these new engines right. With the peak torque #'s in a range that can be used. Then they'll be coming to the table with ammo and provide some real competition. Competition can be very healthy.

I decided to compare my 2000 truck with a reasonably similar 2003 truck from General M. They don't have one... even their so called HD is really a heavy duty 3/4 ton. I guess they decided to kill three (3) birds with one stone. First they took on Ford's 7700 option by overtaking it with the 8600lb GVWR. Where I'm from, anything over 8500 is a heavy duty 3/4 ton. Secondly it only comes with four full size doors (crew cab), so they went after the S'Crew. Then they make the 6.0L standard. Umm, the largest engine in the other three light duty truck manufacturers (I'm including the Toy people here) is the 5.7 HEMI I mentioned about above. TGM's regular 1/2 ton is still comparable with the other three manufacturers, but why create a monster? Can you say overkill? [Perhaps they are just as ignorant about the truck market as they seem to think people are about the numbers racket.] I'd just go and buy the Ford F-250 Crew Cab and get the V-10, anyway, [if I wanted a comparible vehicle to the 1500HD (it'd be cheaper, too)]. [The 1500HD] must be classified as a 3/4 ton as they don't have any EPA #'s on the mileage, and all engines in 1/2 ton trucks are required to have mileage #'s. It must suck down some gas. I think they need a lawsuit filed against them, something about truth in advertising. I can see the stooge who purchased [a 1500HD] pleading to the judge, "I bought a half ton crew cab and wound up with a gas guzzling 3/4 ton."

*That about sums up my feelings. You can't make an apple to apple comparison, when the competition is making oranges and bananas (and trying to pass them off as apples).*

-Kerry

 

This is probably the first inteligent piece of writing I have read so far. I'll tell you all, I'm a die hard Ford fan, and I live in Chevy Country. Everyone down here is happy to have the torque and HP but no one ever looks down at the tach to see if they are using it. "Feel that?" my chevy driving friend said. "Feel what? The rod coming through the floor pan?" Thank you for your inteligence. I'll go on reading the other other posts in this forum and laughing now.

 

Check out the whole torque curve. If the new hemi peaks at 4000 but makes 90% from say 1500, does it really matter?

 

The fact that Dodge's HEMI produces 90% of its torque at 1500rpm may be true (I have yet to see a torque curve for that engine), but why post a peak torque value that's off on the horizon? It's mainly because it sells, and I think that says a lot about the people that buy the truck. They don't care where the torque is at as long as the number being said is larger than the competition.

I am simply trying to get other Ford fans to tell their competition loving friends that those high numbers that are quoted in AD's are just a sales tool that hooked them. The low end torque at 500 rpm to 2500 rpm is what they should pay attention to. Not an unrealistic 4400rpm.

If the 5.7L Hemi put's out 90% at 1500 that's about 340 lb-ft of it's 375 peak. The current 5.4L Ford put's out 300 at that rpm and reaches it's peak of 350 at 2500 rpm, and doesn't drop off below 300 until 4000rpm. This is what I call the usable torque band. I don't have to wait (even though it is less than the Hemi) to get what I need, something that'll move when I want it to. I'm not even going to give you my comparo for the GM 5.3L, since it's peak is 325 @ 4000. I think that's why they put the 6.0L in the heavier trucks even though its only got 360lb-ft @ 4000.

When the competition steps up with a truck engine that acts like a truck engine (it revs and produces ALL of its power in the useable range), then I'll check it out a little more closely...4000rpm and up is not a truck engine, it's a stock-car.

-Kerry

 

That was just a wild *** guess Kerry. Don't know the real numbers for sure. Bet it isn't too far off. According to a K&N or Flowmaster ad (can't remember), the torque curve of the 5.3 was flatter than the 5.4 on the dyno. It made less torque overall though. The proof is in the dyno. But your absolutely right. Marketing. The numbers game. Long stroke = torque. It also means itty bitty bores but that's a different monster.

 

Should have also added that proper tuning is a big factor besides basic engine geometry.

 

Your guess probably is right about the Hemi, Lectrocuted. It would only make sense, but if not... then we're back to a number's racket. The engine geometry should be the platform (long stroke, smaller diameter pistons) for a torque monster, then add the tuning in after you get the geometry right. Nothing like forcing a car engine to become truck engine through tuning.

Just as a follow on... today I needed to merge into some decent traffic on a 4 lane divided hwy(I'm from Denver back in the days of the "mouse trap" I70-I25 merge, have commuted through Seattle-2nd worse traffic in US-so I figure I know traffic), and basically had to force my truck into traffic going 45mph from a dead stop. I pulled out almost simultaneously with a Chevy Avalanche about 75 feet further up the road. He wips his truck in front of a car and then into the next lane (pretty aggressively I might add), not seeing another chance as the traffic slows for the idiot, I whip mine in a second later and end up right next to him and matched his speed almost instantly. Now that's not what I consider lightning fast (I've watched aircraft launch from a carrier in person and consider that to be lightning fast (10 tons to 200 mph in 3 seconds), but it's exactly what I'm talking about in my rant and my reply... torque when I need it!

-Kerry

 

Finally, someone who understands. I've thought about posting something like this before, but never, for fear of getting hammered on by the people that are so easily taken in by the peak numbers. It not about how much torque or horsepower, its about what rpm these numbers come into affect. Like you say, make a truck engine run like a truck engine, who pulls a trailer or even drives around at over 4000 rpm anyways.

 

I agree with you guys. My truck rarely sees 3 grand the way it's geared from the factory. I just don't fall for the numbers game.

 

It all depends on your driving, my 390 hits 4500 when I am screwing around or merging onto the highway when I need to go from 0 to 60 in 100 feet. My 7.3 diesel won't do that and it does'nt pull much more.