Any early 99 owners running ELC antifreeze?
#61
01-22-2011, 05:24 PM
One test strip for all radiator fluids
Unfortunately, in reading the info on their website, I don't see where they claim their test strip will properly test an OAT extended life coolant.
Here are my thoughts:
Conventional coolants need a DCA-2 or DCA-4 SCA package in order for the coolant to properly maintain cavitation protection. That protection comes from the silicates and phosphates which provide a layered protection against the coolant and the cavitation process.
DCA-2 is a Nitrite-only based SCA. Nitrite is the primary and most effective cavitation inhibitor in any SCA. DCA-2 usually contains potassium buffers, free of phosphate.
DCA-4 is a Molybdate/Nitrite based SCA. It uses both Molybdate and Nitrite "synergy" as a cavitation inhibitor. DCA-4 usually has sodium buffers and phosphates
"Historically in North America, conventional coolants have been green in color. Currently, these green coolants typically use a phosphate/ silicate mix as the main components in their inhibitor system. Conventional inhibitors like silicates and phosphates work by forming a protective blanket that actually insulates the metals from the coolant. These inhibitors can be characterized chemically as inorganic oxides (silicates, phosphates, borates, etc.). Because these inhibitor systems are depleted by forming a protective layer, conventional green coolants need to be changed at regular biennial intervals, typically every two years."
"Generally, coolant degradation is accounted for in manufacturers’ “recommended use” intervals. Conventional coolants containing silicates degrade primarily due to rapid inhibitor depletion. This is because silicates lay down protective layers over the system components as part of their protection mechanism. Therefore, coolant inhibitors must be replenished or changed regularly to ensure the surfaces will remain protected if the silicate layer is disturbed."
"Generally, coolant degradation is accounted for in manufacturers’ “recommended use” intervals. Conventional coolants containing silicates degrade primarily due to rapid inhibitor depletion. This is because silicates lay down protective layers over the system components as part of their protection mechanism. Therefore, coolant inhibitors must be replenished or changed regularly to ensure the surfaces will remain protected if the silicate layer is disturbed."
"Carboxylate inhibitors provide corrosion protection by chemically interacting with the metal surfaces where needed, not by universally laying down layers, which is the case with conventional and hybrid coolants. The implications of this functional difference are enormous: extended life cycles, unsurpassed hightemperature aluminum protection, as well as heat transfer advantages on both hot engine surfaces and heat-rejecting radiator tubes where heat transfer is critical to optimal performance.
"Testing for corrosion inhibitors is another method of checking the coolant condition. While extended life inhibitors do not typically need to be tested as long as proper usage recommendations and correct fluids are used for top-off, conventional inhibitors deplete and need to be tested. Other than tests for nitire and molybdate, most conventional coolants require either continual supplemental coolant additions (SCAs) or lab analysis to ensure proper performance."
"It is worth noting that some people refer to these as “organic additive technology” (OAT) because the inhibitors which provide the corrosion protection are derived from carboxylic acids. In actuality, the protection is provided by neutralized carboxylic acids called carboxylates. This distinction is important because all coolants operate in the neutral or basic pH range (pH equal to or greater than 7). In fact, most coolants are made beginning with an acidic precursor, for example, conventional coolants based on phosphate start their lives as phosphoric acid."
"One test ensures the pH is still above 7.0. Some coolant technologies can protect as low as pH 6.5, however, it is typically not good practice to allow a coolant to operate below a pH of 7.0. Glycol breakdown products are acidic and contribute to a drop in pH. Once a coolant has degraded, due to glycol breakdown and pH drop, engine metals are at risk for corrosion. Coolant degradation can be slowed by using coolants with extended life inhibitors and by ensuring that the equipment is operating correctly and within designated design limits."
"One test ensures the pH is still above 7.0. Some coolant technologies can protect as low as pH 6.5, however, it is typically not good practice to allow a coolant to operate below a pH of 7.0. Glycol breakdown products are acidic and contribute to a drop in pH. Once a coolant has degraded, due to glycol breakdown and pH drop, engine metals are at risk for corrosion. Coolant degradation can be slowed by using coolants with extended life inhibitors and by ensuring that the equipment is operating correctly and within designated design limits."
Stewart
#62
01-22-2011, 05:36 PM
I couldn't find where Fleetguard sells a strip for testing an OAT ELC.
http://www.fleetguard.com/html/en/pr..._analysis.html
Stewart
#64
01-23-2011, 12:38 AM
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Since a HD OAT ELC has a different chemical composition than a conventional coolant ("green") and a Hybrid-OAT ("gold") what kind of test strips were used to test the ELC?
I'm curious, since no additive package is required for a HD OAT ELC, how was your company able to test to see if it was low on additives?
Stewart
I'm curious, since no additive package is required for a HD OAT ELC, how was your company able to test to see if it was low on additives?
Stewart
i do remember part of the campaign was to dump 3 pints of addivitive in the coolant right off the back
they trucks we have at our terminal did come with shell elc coolant and was topped off with final charge when low
#65
01-23-2011, 01:59 AM
Everything I've read say's an OAT ELC can be mixed with up to approximately 15% of a non-OAT coolant before the ELC loses it's long life properties and would need periodic testing.
3 pints of Supplemental Coolant Additive didn't do anything good for the ELC.
they trucks we have at our terminal did come with shell elc coolant and was topped off with final charge when low
Stewart
#66
02-07-2011, 07:56 PM
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#67
02-24-2011, 09:22 PM
While swapping PM's with Gooch, this is the info he gave me regarding test strips for ELC.
Originally Posted by Gooch: The Coolant Zen Master
pH is a good indicator of the condition of your ELC. Right out of the bottle the pH of ELC will be considerably lower than conventional (green) coolants. Say a pH of 8.3 for ELC and 10.5 for conventional.
A key point here is that you really have to know the original/baseline pH of the type of coolant you have when it is new (and diluted with H2O) to compare a later test of pH with. You can test the pH (after you mix with H2O) and write it down somewhere when you switch out to the ELC.
A sign that the ELC has lost it's ability to protect the engine would be more associated with a lowering pH than a high pH. A lowering pH is a sign the inhibitors are being depleted. But this happens very slowly in good HD ELC's. Say 1.0-1.5 pH in 100K miles would be normal.
The addition of extender (not SCA) will raise the pH back up (by adding inhibitors). On the other hand, a rising pH can mean something is going on with the engine, like contamination, etc. Again, just make sure your baseline pH wasn't high to begin with (adding H2O with a high pH at original fill will do that too).
I know companies like Penray and Acustrip make test strips for ELC. They will test the pH and RA (reserve alkalinity) of the ELC along with freezepoint and nitrite (if coolant has nitrite). CAT also has test strips and a SOS test program for ELC, but really, unless you have reason to believe your engine or cooling system has a problem, there is no reason to spend the money to test it (it's cheaper to just change out the coolant).
Just change it out at the recommended interval, or add the extender (not SCA). Color and freeze point are really all the indicators you need with ELC. BTW, I wouldn't rely on the RA test strips as much as the pH test strips for ELC. RA doesn't really show a good indication of inhibitor condition in ELC since ELC's don't always have the inhibitors RA checks for, and RA will be much lower in ELC's compared to conventionals, say almost cut in half.
(This next part really interested me)
One last note. There are many types of ELC's out there today. Some of these carboxylates will have molybdate and nitrite like (those found in) conventional coolants. Some will be nitrite-free. My point is know what you have, take a baseline pH and/or RA, and contact the manufacturer of that ELC to know exactly what kind of test or test strip you need. But again, you should be able to just run it per interval the manufacturer specifies and then flush...usually about 8 years or 300K-1M miles depending on brand.
I would recommend doing a baseline pH with ELC like with an acustrip, and then periodically monitor it if you want for peace of mind. If you see a big drop in pH, your inhibitors are depleted. If you see a rise, then something in the engine/cooling system is going on.
Cheers. Gooch.
Words in RED are mine.
Anyway, I hope this puts to rest the question of test strips for HD ELC's, and whether or not a true HD ELC could be depleted within a year. Like Gooch stated though, a high pH may indicate a problem or outside influence degrading the integrity of the coolant.
Stewart
#68
02-24-2011, 10:10 PM
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Well let me stir this clear pot of mud with my ELC equipped E99. I did this so long ago I'm not sure which coolant I used. It was red and I believe it was the Fleetrite ELC offering. I probably did this back in 04-05, 100k miles ago for sure.
Every time I replaced the water pump, I'd catch the coolant and reuse. I've had a by-pass filter on for the duration, and about every year-year and a half, I replace the filter with a Baldwin precharged unit.
I have not seen any cavitation in my water pump cavity, but also have not really LOOKED for any. I've already replaced the O-rings in the cooler, and a couple years back installed some AD's for my AB's. I didn't do the work, and don't know if the cups where replaced (hope so
)
Moral of the story, I have experienced no problems to date. Now that I have a source for test strips, I'll secure some, test, and post back.
Every time I replaced the water pump, I'd catch the coolant and reuse. I've had a by-pass filter on for the duration, and about every year-year and a half, I replace the filter with a Baldwin precharged unit.
I have not seen any cavitation in my water pump cavity, but also have not really LOOKED for any. I've already replaced the O-rings in the cooler, and a couple years back installed some AD's for my AB's. I didn't do the work, and don't know if the cups where replaced (hope so
)Moral of the story, I have experienced no problems to date. Now that I have a source for test strips, I'll secure some, test, and post back.
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