Can't help if the poster hasn't a clue about what he is talking about. I've see several in the past move cam timing one tooth and all have either had an engine that ran like crap or knocked holes in pistons and bent valves. The only thing I see that might actually work is flipping the crank gear over so the TDC mark is toward the block and that would effectively do away with the 4° cam retard and give you a 4° advance. But a whole tooth, never. If it was that easy there would have been someone figure it out years ago when the EPA forced the manufactures into retarding the cam timing for emissions.

 

Sorry I thought you keep saying your brother did it, not you, isn't that your excuse for not knowing? I never said I haven't done it just that I will be again soon. And no not 8 deg as you keep saying but 4.

 

C-Leigh gave us a hint about all this "jaw beating" and the first thing you two ratchet jaws do is add more jaw beating. The original poster of this thread asked a simple question about a 77 lo-po 460 motor and I answered because I have done it and I was accurate.

I have been busy, Christmas ya know, but I am going to answer where the info on the gears came from.

opossum--guess I am going to have to really dumb it down for you. First thing is that while you were still being fed mashed peas in a small jar, I was doing this modification. Before that, I was working on and tuning a 427 corvette, a 69 Cyclone CJ, 66 Cyclone, and a 460 CJ in a 69 galaxie 500 XL, plus others, some of which were pieces of #$%^. Simply put, you arent old enough and have not done the modifications the poster asked about. You are of no consequence.

Real slow now, and pay attention----2 ea. 1976 460 vans, 1 was a 7500 gvw 8 passenger with a 3:31 dana 61 open rear end--that was mine, the one I have told you numerous times that I did the 8 deg early crank gear swap and later on added an edelbrock with a holly 750 4 bbl. Even later I added a crane 260 RV cam and had to also replace the sled rockers (very noisy because of the extra lift of the crane cam). On went comp cams roller tip rockers, 1.72 bb chebby application. Also a crane adjustable stud kit with a synthetic pushrod guide plate bushing. I had also spend many hours working on timing curves, with Manifold vacuum, custom building the vacuum and centrifugal portions. Started with duraspark (worked very well), and later switched to a MSD 6 and blaster 2 coil. With that combination I pulled a 31' airstream travel trailer the the grand canyon and back plus pulling a 22' boat with a 250 HP (350 chebby) inboard, for which I extensively worked on the mallory distributor and the quadrajet carb all over florida, from Lake George to the keys. All of this while you were eating mashed peas and drinking Similac. Perhaps even before then.

The #2 van was an 8700 GVW 12 pass E250 with 3.73 dana 70 rear end with a dana power lock. That was my brothers van. Really pay attention here----. This is the van that my brother "jumped" a tooth on the cam or crank gear, reason really unknown to me except maybe the Ford dealer we went to did not have the early gear in stock. My brother is deceased (2004) so I cannot ask him for particulars. I had much rather be talking to him than you, he knew something about engines----and math. I will cover that later, although you more than likely will not comprehend. After looking at he figures that I have not looked at in 30 years, I can only conclude that he slipped the gear (adv) on the crank gear. With a later gear, he would have been sitting at 8 deg BTC opening the intake valve. Slipping 1 tooth would have added 16 deg adv to the timing event so he would have been at 16 + 8 = 24 deg, which would have been very doable. Had he just put an aftermarket gearset on and used the + 4 keyway, it would have been at 20 deg BTC. He also worked on his timing curve extensively and sometimes pulled my 22' boat and my 31' trailer---very well. Old Bro and I worked on our vans together, many a Saturday in N.O within a stones throw of the superdome at his workplace in their big warehouse----OOPS--sorry bout that!!! You couldnt know about that, you werent even born yet---my bad!!

There is also the matter of the 3rd 429/460 that I have extensive work on----. To refresh your memory, since I have posted this info numerous times. I built a 460 CJ out of a 70 429 CJ. That would have been the one with the intake opening at 32 deg BTC--no need for an "early crank gear" on that one, it was early. That one also had an edelbrock intake to replace the iron Qjet intake OEM. In a dumb move (never said I could do dumb things) I got a spread bore pattern because I picked up a 1000 cfm carter thermoquad for the motor---what a PIA, even with the carter jet and needle kit. Should have gone with a Holly. That one had a dual point dist. OOPS--There I go again, insentisive me-----it was also before your time.

I realize you dont give a squat about what I have done, but I have done it all and you have not. In short, you arent old enough or experienced enough to be challenging anyone. Therefore, either add constructive and accurate information for the original poster or get the heck out of the way. Now do you understand the 2 vans example I have been talking about? BTW in regards to the posters original question-----what have you done?

You and the other rude mouth have done your best to say that I dont know what I am talking about---I dont know anything about engines/theory. As I said earlier, someone in here is very dumb!!

My appology to those who want meaningful info from their posts----any further stuff from me, unless to the point of the thread will be via PM

Sorry for the long, hope the good info helps someone

 

Bear---Your turn---

Read closely---late 460 gear = 8 deg retard. early gear, straight up = 16 deg BTC

Because you have only seen holes in pistons and bent valves tells me you cant build engines WAS. Thank heavens you have never and will never do one of mine.

It was easy, someone did figure it out, it was my brother, and I totally agree with him, actually, we probably ran the numbers together.

Maybe you should have called us to do your engines---ours worked

Keep talking, you are sure convincing a lot of people----

EPA did a lot of things for smog considerations including adding Ported spark vacuum----smoke that one!!

 

Where the hell did you pull this 8° crap from? Nowhere has anyone ever said there was 8° retard in the '72 and later timing sets, 4° only. You are the one with major fact problems and the only support you have is from a know nothing noobie. I'm gonna drop out of this because as I was once told, "Never argue with a moron, he will just drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

 

YA know you are starting to **** me off, maybe that is what you are trying to do, but this will be the last time I respond to your rudeness.

You have no idea what I know or what I have done. And it doesn't matter, what matters is that my FACTS are correct, and yours are not. I know what I am doing, what I have done, and what I am saying, you do not. Everything you have spewed out in this thread has been entirely incorrect. I invite you to debate any FACTS, if you think I am wrong prove it.

I will talk a little about my experiance. I have done alot more then work on a couple of vans in my 30 years. I spent my early years working shoulder to shoulder with some of the best machinists, racers, hot rodders, and car builders, one of whom took the Competition Eliminator championship in 1968 and the NHRA World Championship in 1973, and the first 5 second funny car. I spent all that time sucking up all of there knowledge and experiance before it is lost to us. During those years I did and learned alot. I am probably the only one in this forum who has built a supercharged FE 427 SOHC (if you even know what that is) Worked on a car that competed for Americas most beutiful roadster (lost to Coddington) I've worked on just about every form of competetion vehicle from drag boats to tractor pulls. I've built cars for gangsters and business men from a Javilen that does wheelies to a Jeep that does wheelies. From 41 ****** to 72 Datsuns. I've spent time devolping fuel injection systems with Holley and building a motor for Carol Shelby.

Today I own my business, I build the vehicles my customers desire and nobody else can provide. And sevice and repair the classics that few are qualified to touch. My customers show there cars all summer, drive them all year, and make huge profits selling them at Barret Jackson. My personal passion is providing the ultimate daily drivers, trucks that do there work well, and trucks that will go anywhere.

I am the first to admit I am not all that knowedgable about exacty what came on what stock when. I've just never been able to make that stuff stick in my head. I care about the function, making everything work and look right. I generally refer to other experts about what was original, Bear knows more then I about original classic Ford. I know what works and most important why. And I will admit I have never taken apart a stock 460 just to change the cam timing, I have in the past always started with a fresh properly built motor, or am working on a non stock motor to begin with. The 460 in my new (to me) truck is the first one I have owned and will be changing the cam timing on it as soon as I can have it down for a couple days while I do a bunch of work at the same time.

No I'm not an old fart, but I know my stuff. No I have never tried to skip teeth timing the cam on some van. And yes I have worked with dual points.

 

Well, I see that didnt do much good.

Oh my !!! I'm sorry, I was not even thinking when reading all this.
It all make sence now, you guys are drag racers, ok I'm outa here, ya'll go back at it.

Neil

 

Please allow this "moron" to make it clear to you and all the other readers just how much you know. "Nowhere has anyone ever said there was 8 deg retard in the 72 and later timing sets, 4 deg only" I want you to look at what you just said and consider all the contention you have caused on this thread, others as well. What a wonderful person you are, to refer to the original poster of this thread as "a know nothing newbie". His posts were not in support of me, he was meerly trying to get some simple answers about his 77, I had the facts and have done what he was asking, you have not. I consider him as someone just trying to get a simple answer. You consider him to be a "know nothing", which is what you consider all others but yourself. That is your rudeness and your arrogance. Now to the above referenced statement about the 8 deg thing---

"FORD PERFORMANCE", by PAT GANAHL. Its the yellow publication that covers most of fords engines. Page 118, para 2. Quote--"There are some peculiarities about valve timing in the 385 series engines. The'73 vintage 429 and '73 and later 460 came with the cam timing retarded 8 deg (measured at the crank)". Later in the same paragraph it says, quote--"On such an engine you will notice a marked difference if you simply pull up the front cover and install an early "straight up" timing gear". Therein lies the extent of your knowledge, or rather lack of. It now appears this publication is a bunch of "Morons". As I said earlier bear, "credibility", they gots it, you dont. Appears to me you should have listened to this moron (me). Now Opossum has expounded on all the stuff he has worked on in his short time. He has summed up his wisdom by acknowledging he has not worked on 460's and has never slipped teeth on a cam or crank gear. That is also his rudeness and arrogance. He is willing to parrot bear and call some "old Fart" (that would be me) a liar (paraphrased) that has done all those things, based upon sound, reliable information and analyzation. BTW, the Ford book also shows most all specs on cams etc. That also confirms where I have sometimes mentioned intake openings.

C-Leigh- I am not a drag racer. I like to watch it and have an interest in it. My main interest is getting my 460's and others to perform all the different things as well as possible, towing, vacations, mileage etc. I hope to have answered the original question I am bowing out of this one also, the contentious part anyway. Sorry bout the mess---! I will answer as best I can about the things I have done with 460's.

 

So you take the word of some hack writer over Ford. Good for you and you have once again proven yourself to be incorrectly informed. It is well know on this forums that the retard is 4°. But hey believe whatever you want as long as you don't advise others to take your incorrect info and use it.

Oh I never actually called you a moron, but you obviously believe you are.

 

Benshere, I guess I should thank you. I realized after your last post with evidence that all my info on the factory cam timing came from this and other forums. So I did a little research, it looks like in 73 to 88 Ford retarded the CAM 4 degrees making for an 8 degree retard at the crank. In all the other info I had read it was simply stated that there is a 4 degree retard and no mention of wether it was cam or crank, so I assumed the common measurement at the crank.

That just makes it worse, what was Ford thinking retarding a truck engine 8 degrees, WOW that's alot, no wonder my motor doesn't have the power it should.

This still doesn't make you correct in your assertions that 32 degrees of advance is OK or that people should skip teeth on there gears. In the example you gave where one tooth was 8 degrees at the cam that still makes it 16 at the crank if you advance it one tooth. That 16 advance minus the 8 factory makes for an engine with 8 degrees of cam advance (not 32) That engine could be a stump puller, but never pull well past 3000-3500rpm.

This does however make Bear incorrect, or at least incomplete. If he'd "said they retarded it 4 degrees at the cam" he would be both correct and complete in his statements. Can you agree with this Benshere? Bear?

Your tone is still rude though. I never said I haven't worked on 460s, just rarely stock ones, and I never jumped teeth cause I know it is not a good thing to do. I never called you an old fart, but you did call me a rude dumb kid, I was responding to that. I don't think I ever called you a lier, just incorrect, and giving bad advice.

Can't we all just get along?

 

This thread is not hijacked, it is now and has always been about cam timing. All the OPs questions are answered and then some, it has just grown past the OPs original questions that were easily answered in a few posts. This is how truely substative discussions get started that everyone learns from.

If you want to see a hijack go here;

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/s...9&goto=newpost

 

Why hell is everyone so uptight about a thread the changes direction? I can't really remember all that many conversations I've had in life, other than at work, where the subject didn't wander. Worrying about it just seems very **** to me.

 

Opossum---Sure we can get along--!

Tell you what, I'll give credit for interpreting a 4 deg cam retard instead of a 8 deg crank retard if you will allow me to make a mis-quote---which I did. Prior to the last few posts of mine, I was trying to recall info on cam timing that I had not looked at in 30 years. I bought my van in mid 76, last of the ordering season. By 78, I had ~52K on it and in preperation for a trailer trip to grand canyon, I replaced the belts, hoses etc. and reasoned (lied) to the wife that the timing chain needed to be replaced , knowing full well I intended to put the early gear in it. It was years later that I did the cam, rocker and intake thing (125K).

The ford book info I referenced was not the only source of that info, but I honestly cant recall where. Where my mind fart occurred was that the 32 deg figure I was thinking of was actually the opening at BTC of the CJ/PC cam. It was not actually a cam advance, just the "advanced" opening of the intake valve. The figure for the base 460 is shown as 16 deg BTC. After while I looked back at figures and realized my misquote. I am a little disapointed that it appears that I was suggesting to slip a tooth--. I tried numerous times to say I did not. I was simply stating something ole bro did. We had discussed timing figures and gears many times, but I was on the way to grand canyon when he did his--.

I do stick by the 8 deg thing between early and late, but will make the concession that some of it may have been done at the cam. However, this info says "measured at the crank". Seems to me that if it were at the cam, an early crank gear would not correct it. I am open minded enough that if I see a credible source that is different, I will seriously consider it. Unfortunately, I cannot accept statements of opinion by unknown engine whizzes---I'm sure you wouldnt either. Dont worry too much about "old fart" or "moron"----you couldnt possibly say it with the conviction my wife does You should have heard some of the endearing terms my brother and I called each other. I appologise for any hasty comments of mine

At this point I dont know that I am going to be concerned about getting along with bear. I had hoped that we might have found some common ground, but I am afraid that he will not refrain from using demeaning language if he disagrees with someone. Note from his last post, as he has done me in the past, he refuses to accept credible information from others sources. Being the "old fart" (my term) I dont have the patience to put up with snotty nosed kids---. Feel free to PM me at any time if you have more info or want to know how I did something

 

Benshere,

I don't concern myself with Bear and for the most part give him no attention. He is both vary arummentative and vary stubborn a bad combination.

I was going through some of my old subsrcibed threads trying to find the first one where he and I went at it. While doing so I cam across and reread another thread where the three of us got involved (though I later) and alot of popcorn was popped. I think you will find the thread where he and I got into it quite entertaining as it applies to ignition vacuum timing. For your reading pleasure;

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/7...l-advance.html

Also that other post I spoke of where the three of us were involved with vacuum timing again the subject;

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/7...ce-sought.html


Edit;

I just reread the thread in the first link and found you were there too, so I guess you know what I'm saying. I should have remembered you.

 

You also don't concern yourself with facts much either.