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  #1  
Old 12-26-2007, 10:20 PM
helitom helitom is offline
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2003 F-250 4wd diesel super duty brakes

My F-250 has 60K miles and is in need of its fifth (as in 5) turning of the front rotors. No one I know with a similar Ford, in similar or worse service has had anything like this problem. The front brakes start chattering within a heart beat; its 's not something gets worse over time. It has happened when going downhill pulling my 5th wheel R/V, and has happen with just my ATV in the bed (appx 600 lbs). Mr. Goodwrench at the local Ford dealer solution is to turn the rotors. As a bit of background, when the truck was new (less than 10K miles) I had the ABS system light come on on two occassions, both times while just driving down the freeway and not using the brakes (or had not used them for a long period of time). Each time Ford said they could find nothing wrong, and reset the the on board error recorder to 0.

My non-technician solution was to get some high performance rotors and pads. The high performance shop is more than willing to sell me some, but it is their opinion that there is something going on with the brakes; ABS system or proportioning valve. Maybe the early on ABS light is a clue?

Anyway, since my local Ford dealer does not know a solution beyond turning down the rotors again, and again, and again; it doesn't seem their heart will be in more than a cursory diagnosis of a possible ASB problem. Is there a way I can eliminate or confirm there is a problem with the ABS system?

Oh yea....before any discussion comes to it; I have towed cattle, tractors, car carriers for many years. I do know how to drive a rig. This truck is the only vehicle with which I have ever had this kind of problem. That's why I thinking the root cause may be in the ABS, and may have been there from the day Mr. Ford said it was OK to sell this truck.
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  #2  
Old 12-26-2007, 10:58 PM
Renegade-Diesel Renegade-Diesel is offline
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The first thing I would suggest checking is the runout of the rotors, hubs, etc. Something is not turning in a straight line or circle. Do your pads wear in a flat even surface? Any type of continuous drag will bring on your ABS lite. Just some ideas for you to consider. Hope they help.
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  #3  
Old 12-27-2007, 07:55 AM
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I guess it's worth mentioning because you never can tell how good the dealer is doing the work - I've seen shops just blast everything back together in 2 seconds with air guns. It's a crap shoot as to whether that rotor is really on there flat or not when they do that. They can turn them as much as they want, if they're not getting them torqued on even, combined with a 7-8k truck plus whatever you're hauling, it will warp a rotor super fast.
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  #4  
Old 12-27-2007, 08:11 AM
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The main problem is the rotors on the older trucks are too thin to start with. Most don't recommend turning them one time, let alone 5. Each time they're turned the sooner they will need to be turned again. Favorite replaces are Power Slots Cryo Slotted Rotors. These should be the last you will ever need.
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  #5  
Old 12-27-2007, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helitom
......It has happened when going downhill pulling my 5th wheel R/V, and has happen with just my ATV in the bed (appx 600 lb)......
Check your trailer brakes on the 5th wheel trailer. If the brakes are not working properly most of the stopping is done by your front brakes, which will overheat them. The subsequent brake jobs just make the rotor thinner and more prone to warping.

Also the chattering is probably caused by a failure of the brake techncian to properly clean and lubricate the caliper slide pins. Common problem on SD brakes.

(Yes, even Ford techncians screw this one up on a regular basis)
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Last edited by redford; 12-27-2007 at 08:52 AM.
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  #6  
Old 12-27-2007, 04:35 PM
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Brakes

Yup, Agree - caliper slide pins are a very good spot to look - Ditto on checking the trailer brakes as well.

Brake pad wear - inner vs outer pad, front vs rear & left vs right side is another thing to check. Does it feel like the front end is bouncing up/down? This simptom = stuck or sticky Caliper pins nearly 100% of the time. This can be misinterpreted as an issue w/ the ABS system or rotors by some Dealer Techs.

To me it sounds like this problem may be a combo effect of several things - trailer brakes, caliper pins, brake pads and/or maybe a slow/sticky caliper. Does this truck ever pull to one side on some but not all hard stops? = Sticky Caliper.

DG
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  #7  
Old 12-27-2007, 09:13 PM
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I've had the rotors on my 03 F250 Crew SB KR turned about 15K ago and they're back at it again. I've got 57K on the truck now. I just ordered a set of HD Wagner rotors and ceramic pads...it'll cost about 200. I think that'll take care of my needs.

Joe
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Old 12-27-2007, 09:14 PM
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I've had the rotors on my 03 F250 Crew SB KR turned about 15K ago and they're back at it again. I've got 57K on the truck now. I just ordered a set of HD Wagner rotors and ceramic pads...it'll cost about 200. I think that'll take care of my needs.

Joe
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Old 12-27-2007, 09:15 PM
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Hmmm, wonder why it posted twice...sorry dudes!

Joe
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  #10  
Old 12-27-2007, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dagren99
Yup, Agree - caliper slide pins are a very good spot to look - Ditto on checking the trailer brakes as well.
These are great places to start and I would add checking the caliper mounts themselves. Since you do a great deal of towing, the wear on the mounts could also be a culprit.

With the symptoms you described, I don't think it's in the ABS system. If a wheel sensor is bad, it will either cycle the brakes when not needed, or cause a fault that turns on the ABS light. If the ABS motor was bad, it is pretty much the same thing. I don't think one can confuse the ABS system cycling the brakes with a chatter.
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  #11  
Old 12-28-2007, 02:16 AM
helitom helitom is offline
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Thanks for the input

Thanks for all the input. It has given me some things to think about/check. Lubrication of the slide pins is now high on my list. I have also now had time to review other similar threads in this forum and see a couple of posts which I would interpret as being the same problem I am facing. Unfortunitely, a resolution to those problems was not posted. I will try to conclude this thread with a answer that at least solved my problem. In the back of my mind I am still thinking of depositing the Ford OEM parts in the local land fill and replacing them with something that works properly.

I was on my way to get a set of the Power Slot Cyro's with the Velvet Touch F3 carbon semi metallic pads when this thought about possible ABS problems came up in the first place.

A couple of comments based on what has been posted to date: 1 - When this problem happens, truck does not pull, it just shutters which I can feel strongly in the steering wheel, as well as the structure (my butt and feet) when I apply the brakes. 2 - This problem does not occur gradually; boom....I step on the brakes and there it is. 3 - My trailer brakes are set tighter than I would like specificly to try mitigating the onset of the front brake problem. However, this has happen with no trailer on the truck and just a 600 lb ATV in the bed.

Any additional comments appreciated. I'm off to the Ford dealer tommarrow for the recall - cam sensor replacement. I will talk with them again about this problem.
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Old 12-28-2007, 07:59 AM
dagren99 dagren99 is offline
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Brakes

Hmmmm After seeing you last comment something came to mind I didn't mention earlier. I've seen this on a few F350's (1-2) where the back brakes basically weren't working - pads were glazed over. The owners were only ocassional tower's though and mostly ran no to lightly loaded 60%-70% of the time. I'm on just my 2cnd set of Rotors/Pads at 77K despite a lot of towing/mtn driving. (changed them @ 65K)

Turning the rotors make me suspicious to begin with - I've always had bad luck with vibration or uneven pad wear after doing that.

DG
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Old 12-28-2007, 08:33 AM
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I have had similar problems, my 2001 350 had three sets of front rotors before it had 35K miles. Mechanic buddy said that when Ford got tired of supplying freebees (which they did) he would fix them. The fix was what one poster already stated, dirty mountings and air guns. We cleaned the hubs, mounted new rotors and TORQUED the extensions (dually here) That set of rotors was on the truck when I sold it last month @160K miles. My 2000 250 had warped rotors with in a week of two new front tires after the wheels were slammed on with an air gun by the ding dong at the tire shop in spite of me telling them to TORQUE the wheels. Don’t know if it is the entire problem but dirty mountings and careless use of air tools surely doesn’t help the SD front rotor problem.fficeffice" />>>
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:47 PM
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I wanted to share a response to a post I made at a differnet forum on this same topic. The answer is pretty much what most others posted here. However, coupled with my visit to the Ford dealership this AM, I am certian it is the correct answer. First is Moe's response to my question as I posted here, followed my my response to him.

Hi I'm ndo6226 Ford/ase cert tech for more than ten years,the first thing you must understand is that every time a rotor is turned it gets thinner, it has less material, or less metal,,,sooo the more you turn a rotor the more likely it is to warp again!! (less material less area to dissapate heat,brakes work on the common principle of friction,friction is heat and heat must be dissipated.)So back to your Q,a ABS light on does not affect normal brake operation, it only turns off the ABS systom.Normal brake function is not impared. Soo my sugestion would be to purchase a qualty set of rotors (not from autozone ect) and factory or ceramic pads,upon installation MAKE SHURE THEY TORQUE THE WHEELS TO SPECKS!!!!!!!!!! Most brake rotor problems on ford trucks have ben trace to wheel torque!!!!~! No **** crazy aint it??? I think the proper torque for your truck (aluminum wheel) would be 150 LBFT.Try this it will work!!!!!!!! MOE.



Moe -

After reading of and posting to other similar forums on my issue, I believe you are exactly right. I understand the thinning of rotors,etc. However, the previous four fixes were Ford's approach to the problem, not mine. Since Ford couldn't fix the problem I was in the process of ordering up a set of Power Slot Cyro's and F3 Carbon semi metallic pads when the whole issue of the ABS came up; hence my question to the various groups.



As an aside, I had my truck in the dealership today for the recall of the cam sensor. I, again, got into a discussion with the "service rep" about this brake problem. The Ford party line is now that brakes should be "redone" every 20K miles, AND rotors should also only be turned ONCE. When I asked why they (this dealership has performed all maintenance on this truck since it was new) had turned the rotors a total of four times to date if the one turn rule is in place. He didn't know why that happened?! Also note that the owner's manual sez nothing about brake jobs every 20K miles and every regular servicing of the truck has had the brake inspection marked as "OK". Shoddy work at a dealership is not uncommon, and I've grown to expect it. However, what was really revealing was that I was told that Ford now offers a "Super Duty" rotor and pad set ($250 per wheel). Those are drilled and slotted. It seems to me with this "upgrade" that Ford knew the original equipment was crap and could not withstand anything but the mildest use. Once again arrrggg..., $42K truck and I have to buy 3rd party equipment to make it operate correctly.....



Thanks for you input. As I said, I think you are spon on target.



Tom
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Old 12-28-2007, 04:04 PM
BansheeBoy BansheeBoy is offline
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20k break jobs as "normal"??? I hope that's crap. My old Silverado 1500 could do better that that. I guess maybe if you tow heavy loads often or beat the heck out of your truck...

I tow / carry fairly light loads and not very often, I'm at 72k on original breaks from 2003. They're showing wear, but still fine. Granted, I don't use them as heavily as others though. I'd say the first set was not installed correctly, then by the 50th time they turned them they were paper thin. You'd warp those things backing out of your drive way at that point. A set of good rotors and pad put on by either you or a reputable shop and you're golden.

Thanks for going back to update the post - helps others when they search issues out!! (Like me lol...)
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