crossbones how are you going to know when #1 piston is on top mine is also a rubber 2 pice did the same thing you did and it moves if you pull the injector or the glow plug can you get past the pre cup to put a wire in there to feel the piston juging by the pics ive seen i dont think you can do it that way tell me what your plan is

 

VSD....................I do not know exactly at this time.........the first thing that I would do is to remove the bolt that holds the balancer on.................most engines the key way is indexed at TDC..?????.......with the combination of bumping a compression stroke up on number one cylinder (glow plug or injector out) and comparing the key way (most likely it will be at a 12 o'clock position)................I do not know if at this position you can "feel" the piston through the injector port............even doing it this way if a "ruff" estimate because we do not know piston TDC dwell time and its a very complicated math "thing"............the only accurate way is using a piston stop and a degree wheel...................the next best way is having the valve opening timing specks and go from there......and that is tricky.....really got to know what ya doing there.............

I have complete confidence in the method that I use and with time and input from everyone we can "nail it"...............as I have said before.....I trust the readings more than I trust a $700. timing light..............

crossbones

 

OK you guy's, I read on another site, by a diesel shop type, that almost 40% of the time you cannot get these timing meters to work on these trucks, didn't elaborate, but dirty balancers, and now slipped halves all point to this being a problem. I know its not very precise for us got to have it just right type's (I am in aircraft maintenance so I know all about doing it right and working to approved data), but there is a reason that experienced diesel people are comfortable timing these engines by ear.

There is no one within 100 miles of me that has a timing set up, so I read lots on this site and just got into a get er done frame of mind. If you set up a jumper so you can turn your cold advance off and on, you can slowly advance the IP a half line at a time till you get a powerstroke pre-igniton knock, noticable as you pull out on the road under power at driving rpm- 1500 to 2000, with the advance on. As soon as the advance cuts off, the preignition rattle is gone. I believe I have great power at this setting, my glow plugs are not burning out, truck starts instantly, my mv readings are pretty balanced, this method will automatically compensate for lower pop pressures, (if all are the same, anyway). I have no idea in the world what the actual timing is using this method, but I believe it works!

Just for what its worth my .0235 CND!

 

I am suprised by this new development, but prahaps I shouldn't be....

My dad told me about peoples' reaction to the ford diesels when they first came out. 25+ mpg were the numbers that were thrown around back then (before the overdrives), but that was in alberta, and there are not many hills out there. I also remember reading old threads that revealed that many trucks that had their IPs replaced or rebuilt were never able to live up to their former glory in terms of fuel efficiency. But thats all just specutation.

However if there is no reliable and presice way to time these engines (can it be true????????????) by the book, than maybe theres some truth to it. So how are the IPs timed when they are replaced or overhauled anyway?


It seems to me this could end up being better threads of all time.

 

Before someone else jumps all over me about this, It's not impossible to use a timing meter on these engines, what I read is it can be difficult to get everything working right to get proper results. ie suppose the one injector on the sense line / cylinder being used to set the timing is firing way too early -low pop pressure, then all the rest of the timing on the other cylinders will be out of wack. Just goes to show that there is room for other methods of monitoring whats going on with the engine, ie timing by ear or measuring GP mv output, etc, and from the last few posts, don't assume to much!

Good maintenace is the key, I believe the injectors being kept up, tested and/or replaced regularly is the best insurance on keeping these trucks running smooth FWIW.

 

Gentlemen.......these problems are some what typical of what I find when tuning engines, both gas and diesel's.......please do not be discouraged .......I do not know all the little tricks about a 7.3 just yet, but its a diesel, so they can be figured out..................

Now, I am just thinking out loud and asking a question about our problem of where is TDC.............ok, a relationship of timing HAS TO BE between the crank shaft and the IP.......logic tells me that when a IP is replaced that there are timing marks on the IP gear and the gear that drives it...........next, it is logical to think that when these two marks are aligned that it would also have a direct relationship to TDC............we have a two bolt cover to see these marks...............

Can some one confirm my thoughts?????

crossbones

 

Crossbones, the IP gear timing mark is NOT visable by taking off the cover, you would need to pull off the whole front of the engine, that's why it's NOT recommended to pull the IP and gear assy off, only pull the IP without distrubing the gear timing. The OEM has a static timing mark at 12 oclock on the cover itself and the IP for initial static timing, the other mark "chiseled" at about 2 oc drivers side is after FORD did the original dynamic timing, only good for original pump installation. I work strictly with the 12 oc mark myself! Obviously as IP's and gears wear some the timing can move, and also is affected by variation in injector pop pressure.

 

I am wondering, wouldn't all the timing marks line up (TDC) when the IP fuel adjustment screw is visible? If so that would mean when the IP fuel screw is aligned for adjustment, the engine would be at TDC because all the timing gears would be aligned as per the timing marks...Just a thought but tell me if I'm right or wrong here...

-Dave

 

When the fuel screw comes into view the engine is not at TDC, the TDC mark on the harmonic balancer will be in the 2 Oclock area instead of the 11 Oclock TDC position.

To view the timing marks, all of them, you need to remove the water pump and timing gear cover behind the water pump. You can not see any timing marks when the engine is together other than the one on the harmonic balancer.
Timing marks, one on the crank gear, two on the cam drive gear and one on the IP drive gear. Also the crank and lower cam gear mark is a dot. The upper cam gear and IP drive gear mark is a Y. When in time properly all of them are in line from the bottom to the top.

 

This problem of the timing mark slipping is not a problem using the glow plug method, but I still would like to solve it if possible.............I am shooting in the dark with these questions just to bring out more information that maybe we can find a way........

when removing the IP, does Ford say anything about rotating the engine to a position before removable?

when looking through the access hole to the IP gear bolts , can you tell anything about the clock position of the IP?

does anyone have a engine out of the vehicle so they could compare the crank shaft key way position to the position of the IP?

Back to the readings.........I now have my IP timed (advanced about 1/8 inch of the center lines on the IP and housing)
I am getting some fairly constant readings in the low to mid 9 mv's at 55 MPH on level ground with out a load.........I weight about 10250 lbs. empty.........with a load of approximately 2500 lbs, the readings are in the upper 10's and lower 11's................these new readings are a improvement over the old readings............I am also beginning to "hear" a improvement on the diesel knock (its getting a little louder and clearer, especially at 55 MPH)......the factory temperature gauge has decreased just a bit, this also is telling me I am headed in the right direction with the timing...............

more to come,
crossbones

 

Forgot to mention........at about 45°F this morning, the first startup of the day.......it fired right up with out any accelerator and the exhaust was clear by the time I walked around to look at it...............this is a huge improvement from the "smoke train" of several minutes when I first got the truck and my cold start advance is Not working at this time.........I can still tell things are not "just right".......there was a small puff of smoke to begin with....still indicating a leaky injector and the engine had a "ruff idle"

 

It seems to me that the balancer slipping is probably very likely. With the way that these diesels stop, hundreds of cycles and 15 years of rubber deteriating make it all the more likely.

I know that if I time mine to the factory 8.5 degrees, it sounds waaaay to advanced on a cold morn. I ususally go about 4.5 degrees @ 2000 RPM's.

I've been following this post and like where it's going. I'd hook up my meter, but I've been driving my gasser. The 93 is parked for the salt season, and the 85 only gets used during work situations.

 

Wow interesting stuff and I'm sure helpful. There is no question having every component operating at 100% effieciency is best for the engine, mpg and enviornment. Although on the flip side it takes a pretty leaky injector to wash away the the lubricating oil and score the cylinder wall, you would certainly notice the trailing blue smoke.
To have the ip rebuilt, new gp, and have injectors methodically set to all pop off at the precise same pressure and also a very inportant item I didn't notice in the posts was coolant temp which has a very important role in maximizing engine performance. Feel the lower rad hose sometime. Anyhow to do all this you could easily spend $500 bucks or more to gain probably 2 mpg at best. Thats 75 miles more for a dual tank fill up, at 15 mpg thats five free gallons at 3.00/gal thats $15.00 less for fill up, or in other words in ideal conditions you would pay for your tune up in 38 dual tank fill ups.
In another issue I had a 1971 ford f250 with a 360 gas engine, no smog no computer. Just a gas guzzling carb. After a complete tune-up I could get as high as 16 mpg (it would drop down quickly) Today I don't own a gasser but the people I know that have the newer pickups with a 5.8 liter with S.E.F.I. (sequencial electronic fuel injection, which varies fuel and spark timing at each cylinder for optimized economy) three+oxygen sensors, air temp sensor, manifold pressure sensor, and everything else. These trucks should get 100!!! mpg. But you know they still get about the same mileage. Figure that one out. Funny that in 30 years we have gained 10%? in fuel econmy. (I think 8% came from less weight and more aerodynamic bodys)

I've heard hear-say that its not in the oil companies best interest for or vehicles to get twice of three times the mileage, cut one of the worlds biggest industries profits by 60%? they wouldn't be happy and everyone knows if you have enough money (lobbying power) you can control what goes on in the world.
If anyone has a cut and dry way for me to get 40mpg with my diesel please start a new topic and my friend you will be a wealthy man(woman). just my 2 cents

 

The inherent weakness of the internal combustion engine will always be its lack of thermal efficiency. The best possible efficiency rating for the average gasoline powered piston engine is about 29%, so for every 100 gallons of fuel you feed it about 71 are wasted! And thats not even begining to account for the 20-30% loss on the drive train. Diesels like the 6.9/7.3 are probably capable of 35% efficiency maybe a little more on a good day. And all of that assumes you are in the optimum powerpand. Then there are the huge low rpm marine diesels that can break 50% (so much for the fuel cell ), and many of those are 2 strokes.

I hope you guys take this the right way, but if I ever have to get rid of my truck for some reason (lack of parts maybe), I will opt to build a completely new one from the ground up. Starting with a stainless frame covered with 1/8th aluminuim skin (I'm sick of rust!), and ending with a diesel electric hybrid. Or better yet, pure electric, with max efficiency peaking at over 90%. With a solar bank on the house, I could drive for free. Maybe some day.........

 

farmnfly,
the world economy runs off of the revenues produced from energy usage...............
about 50% of this revenue supports indirect jobs with a pretense of emission control, tax collection and the biggest is "political power"

When it comes to gasoline and diesel fuel, what the oil companies, EPA,car manufactures and politicians Do Not want the public at large to know is that these fuels are WASTE PRODUCTS of the petrochemical industry.................IF the oil companies had to pay for the proper disposal of these waste products it would cost them about $10-20 per gallon................Modern Engines are more so designed to "burn" waste products than for fuel mileage or low emissions...........

I assure anyone reading this forum that with creditable lab test in hand that showed substantial fuel efficiency and a 90% reduction in emissions using todays standards................you will Not be able to sell it...................simply because it would put hundreds of thousands of people out of very high paying jobs.............and we know "that ain't gona happen"

farmnfly, I have a diesel pickup that gets over 40 MPG

crossbones