Just saw this in this mornings newspaper, so decided to look it up. http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/...ostly.ssl.html

Basically, according to their research, ethonal, biodiesel, etc, aren't worth the cost and energy to produce. Of course, they are considering all costs from planting the soybeans to when the biodiesel is ready to use. According to their figures, it costs 28% more energy to get from start to finish then the final energy value of the biodiesel product. And sunflower oil is much, much worse, at 118% more energy.

Many farmers in the midwest are investing in biodiesel and ethonal plants. If Cornell's figures are correct, I suspect that these farmers are going to get burned and are going lose money. Currently, ethonal may be justifiable, only because of the Feds subsidize it to the tune of $3,000,000,000 annually with taxpayers money. But it looks like taxpayers are getting shafted again.

25 years ago, when I was on the farm, our neighbor spent a ton of money to build his own ethonal plant. He also lost a TON of money, because it didn't take him long to figure out that he was burning more $'s of propane to heat the mash then the value of the ethonal he was producing. I don't think he even operated it for six months, and ended up tearing everything out and using the building for farm storage purposes.

Hmm, so what ARE we going to do about our dependency on Middle Eastern oil?

 

Finally someone who looked at ALL the facts. The biodiesel crowd needs to know that the fertilizer required to grow the crops comes from petroleum products. So much for foriegn oil independence.
I'll buy bio-d when the price is close to the same as petro-d. Or at least try and run b-10 or 20 when the new ultra low sulfur diesel is introduced. The fuel is pretty dry at that point and the injectors need to be lubricated with something. Bio-d does a great job of that.

 

i don't claim to be an expert on this... but i have my doubts about the validity of these claims.... the way the market works is that as things become produced in greater quantity the relative cost per unit comes down... so... what may start off costing $2.50 a gallon to make may eventually only cost $1.00 to make... or less... it will depend on market conditions... i know you can make vegtable oil CHEAP, why should biodiesel be any different... as production is increased the cost per unit always comes down... the ONLY reason the prices for oil KEEP spiking is volitility in the market... and the oil companies take FULL advantage of EACH spike... i will read that article and then see if there is anything intelligent i can add to this conversation...

 

The author, David Pimentel, is the same guy who also concluded (among other things) that gasoline takes more energy to produce than it generates, and corn-fed cow flatulence was a significant contributer to green house gasses. The authors only closely scrutinized corn, tropical wood, and sugarcane production systems. If I understand the paper (it's pretty dry reading) they actually concluded that ehtanol production from sugarcane (what Brazil does) was sustainable and had a net positive energy production. Corn and wood is what they really hammered on. Seemed to me that he was lobbying for federal money to go into solar cell research rather than agriculture for whatever reason.

There has recently been a new bacteria that produces a higher ethanol yeild from grain straw than is conventionlly produced from corn grain,uses the by products to power the ethanol plant, and can cogenerate electricity. Sounds extremely encouraging for ethonol if it can be brought into production, and hopefully will quiet detractors like Mr. Pimentel.

 

i don't want to sound like a "conspiracy theory" guy.. but clux is right...this guy has an agenda and he is using this newspaper forum to try and influence people to believe his opinion...

 

Is ethanol really worth it?? maybe along a river, but out in my part of the world, where things are dry, I don't see it. Look how many gallons of water it takes to make one gallon of ethanol, but yet they are pushing, and pushing for more ethanol plants. Will it be pushed if the price of corn and distillers grains skyrocket? I doubt it.

 

Looking at all the facts!! I think not!! Lets say his cost for Bio-Diesel are correct. I'll put $100.00 to $1.00 that the cost of Diesel made from Petroleum is not stated correctly. Like the 500 billion $$$ we have spent in Iraq over the last 2 1/2 years. Or the 500 Billion we spent in the same place in 1991!! Or the cost of cleaning up the residue from petroleum over the last century!! The sooner we change the type of fuel we use the lower that cost will be!!

 

As stated before, longer it is produced and higher quantity will eventually drive the price down. Problem is until it is as cheap or cheaper than dino fuel, many like myself will not buy.

Second, if you want to prove something wrong, you can find fault in anything.

 

mobey dick makes a couple of valid points... what i don't understand is... where are the treehuggers..? doesn't a diesel running on bio make a lot less polution..? that was my understanding... am i wrong on that..?

 

It's about the same. One pollutant is up the other is down in comparison. I forget which.

 

Ahh, the epic battle! Why not just go to cold -fusion and never look back? We are all doomed to reap the sour rewards of our misguided notions. alas, poor Horatio...

Sorry got real confused there for a moment... C'mon guys, economy driven by gov't, gov't driven by economy... Any questions? Thank GOD there are good honest Americans like us to pay the way for the rest of the Saps!

Max

 

This is kind of "way out there" but several people claim to have working prototypes. I've posted it before, and most people have been skeptical, but the flip side is the people developing it say that they drove cross country with using any fuel whatsoever. You be the judge.
IMO if this works it's the next "big thing". But it's unreliable at best right now.
http://energy21.freeservers.com/as101.htm

 

Hmm Kwik, no fuel? I agree, definitely would be the next big thing. Keep me posted if you hear anything new.

Max

 

To get into the alternate fuel source argument I'd like to make two points.

1. The article assumes the use of virgin vegetable oil. When used oil is factored in the production cost of the oil drops because the oil would have been produced anyway. Its sorta like recycling aluminum cans, it keeps the price af aluminum down.

2. There is an even more attractive and proven source of diesel fuel. Some time ago the South Africans developed a process for turning methane (natural gas) into diesel.
The end product is free of contaminants and thus significantly less polluting. With Oil at $25 per barrel this process could not compete but with oil at current prices it may become a very viable source. The USA has proven reserves of natural gas to last 200 years.

 

ahh... well... i would think folks would want this just to get rid of the smell that diesels make... personally i LIKE the idea of a fuel that helps my psd run smoother... last longer... run cleaner.. and it lubes the fuel system better.. but.. i am taking people at their word that this is the case as i haven't had a chance to run it yet... has anyone in here run bio..? if so.. what did you run, what did it cost, and what where the differences you noticed if any..?