Need Advice Major Frame Swap Please
#1
05-23-2005, 07:50 AM
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Need Advice Major Frame Swap Please
Plan was to mount my 62 step side on a 04 crown vic frame .I test fitted the cab and bo
see photos).
PROBLEM LIST.THE vic's frame is wider and lower to make the cab fit it would have to be raised.the box would have to be cut and lowered.The shock and rear end hanger may be inside the box.Ihave to build a front frame to mount the radiator and support.Ido want it to look good not like a truck built on top of a frame.
Would it be better to build on the 62 frame?
#1 engine and tranny only.
#2 try and mount complete drive train and suspenion?
Your advice is requsted and valued,PLEASE REPLY
THANK YOU Larry
see photos).PROBLEM LIST.THE vic's frame is wider and lower to make the cab fit it would have to be raised.the box would have to be cut and lowered.The shock and rear end hanger may be inside the box.Ihave to build a front frame to mount the radiator and support.Ido want it to look good not like a truck built on top of a frame.
Would it be better to build on the 62 frame?
#1 engine and tranny only.
#2 try and mount complete drive train and suspenion?
Your advice is requsted and valued,PLEASE REPLY
THANK YOU Larry
#3
05-24-2005, 05:52 AM
#4
05-24-2005, 07:29 AM
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What you are running into is Partly due to pre 65 configuration of the way early cabs mount to a frame, as well as inherent differences in the two basic frames. I am aware of people who used one end or another (either front suspension & steering or the rear suspension & axle assy). But not a whole frame because there are easier ones to use.
Having said that, I will also say that anything is possible with enough resources to pull it off. The power train (engine & tranny) are fine but I'm not fond of Fords integral rear axle assy when compared to a 9" FoMoCo rear axle. I also do not care for the ride that rear coil springs provide when in a truck. Of course that's personal tastes and others may have a different opinion.
Never the less, I have learned to put these trucks onto a later Ford "F" Series Chassis just because it is easier quicker and cheaper. Plus the independent I beams and leaf sprung rear axle are tune-able suspensions. As I said there's still some playing around with front cab mounts from a 64 & earlier to 65 & later. But it's a lot lless work than inventing & fabrication a mount system to sit a truck body on a "P" Car frame, even tho it's do-able. I don't see any advantages, or at least not enough advantages to warrant all the work & effort involved.
Later (65-79) trucks have all the upgrades like power steering, power disc brakes and so forth that the car has, plus the majority of things either fit or are very close to fitting in a relatively "stock" configuration.
It's really up to what you want, are willing to do and willing to put up with to get it done. I can see lots of extra work, engineering, design, fabrication and ingenuity going into using a passenger car frame.
My short answer is it is a do-able retro fit. But to me there are a lot of unanswered issues that will come up, and I am not sure the effort would be worth the net end result, but that's my opinion in this case. I would probably consider doing it for a client on Labor & Material Basis, but I wouldn't do it for myself when there are better ways.
Of course where I am most frames are still good enough to use, unless they're from a transplanted, northern, vehicle or have been beach driven often and a lot. So my perspective on frame swaps is skewered by circumstances prevailing here & not where you are. I hope I didn't confuse the issue more with this. . . .
FBp
Having said that, I will also say that anything is possible with enough resources to pull it off. The power train (engine & tranny) are fine but I'm not fond of Fords integral rear axle assy when compared to a 9" FoMoCo rear axle. I also do not care for the ride that rear coil springs provide when in a truck. Of course that's personal tastes and others may have a different opinion.
Never the less, I have learned to put these trucks onto a later Ford "F" Series Chassis just because it is easier quicker and cheaper. Plus the independent I beams and leaf sprung rear axle are tune-able suspensions. As I said there's still some playing around with front cab mounts from a 64 & earlier to 65 & later. But it's a lot lless work than inventing & fabrication a mount system to sit a truck body on a "P" Car frame, even tho it's do-able. I don't see any advantages, or at least not enough advantages to warrant all the work & effort involved.
Later (65-79) trucks have all the upgrades like power steering, power disc brakes and so forth that the car has, plus the majority of things either fit or are very close to fitting in a relatively "stock" configuration.
It's really up to what you want, are willing to do and willing to put up with to get it done. I can see lots of extra work, engineering, design, fabrication and ingenuity going into using a passenger car frame.
My short answer is it is a do-able retro fit. But to me there are a lot of unanswered issues that will come up, and I am not sure the effort would be worth the net end result, but that's my opinion in this case. I would probably consider doing it for a client on Labor & Material Basis, but I wouldn't do it for myself when there are better ways.
Of course where I am most frames are still good enough to use, unless they're from a transplanted, northern, vehicle or have been beach driven often and a lot. So my perspective on frame swaps is skewered by circumstances prevailing here & not where you are. I hope I didn't confuse the issue more with this. . . .
FBp
#5
05-24-2005, 08:55 AM
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Larry. Crown Vic.
All 3 of the Iowa boys who hosted Slickstock last Sept. have done this. There might be a darn good reason, dya think?
I hate to disagree with someone who forgot more than I ever knew, (all due respect Fbp,) but I rode in one, and had a wild ride in it,
. the guy driving did his best to flip that sucker over, but it corners like a Go kart. Riding is believing in that truck, you have never ridden in a truck that handles like one with a Crown vic/LTD frame under it.
Matts is the most comprehensive set of pics, you might have to join the Slick 60's MSN group to see them.
These are the guys to get hold of if you need some serious advice
Kid's '64 flareside
http://groups.msn.com/slick60sfordfs...o&PhotoID=6310
Matt's 66 Styleside
http://groups.msn.com/slick60sfordfs...o&PhotoID=6400
All 3 of the Iowa boys who hosted Slickstock last Sept. have done this. There might be a darn good reason, dya think?
I hate to disagree with someone who forgot more than I ever knew, (all due respect Fbp,) but I rode in one, and had a wild ride in it,
. the guy driving did his best to flip that sucker over, but it corners like a Go kart. Riding is believing in that truck, you have never ridden in a truck that handles like one with a Crown vic/LTD frame under it. Matts is the most comprehensive set of pics, you might have to join the Slick 60's MSN group to see them.
These are the guys to get hold of if you need some serious advice
Kid's '64 flareside
http://groups.msn.com/slick60sfordfs...o&PhotoID=6310
Matt's 66 Styleside
http://groups.msn.com/slick60sfordfs...o&PhotoID=6400
Last edited by Ringo Fonebone; 05-24-2005 at 09:11 AM.
#6
05-24-2005, 12:56 PM
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#7
05-24-2005, 01:53 PM
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#8
05-24-2005, 11:44 PM
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Thanks John,FBp,Prostock,and Ringo
What a wealth of info.You could never get this from a book.FBp I wish I had ask before buying the Vic next project I'll take your advice but for now I have 2 chassis and one body.
Today I put both frames side by side and tried to see the easy way,I guess the most simple would be an eng/tranny swap but for some reason my brain wont let me stop there,It says why not add coil spring suspention with ps and disk brakes find a way to mount the vic's rear end to leaf springs and what about drive angles.Then I look at the vic and think it's all there.
Going camping this 3 day week end .Might just deside which way to go.
Ringo ever been to Lethbrige,Milkriver,Red Deer,Camrose,?
thanks again Larry
Today I put both frames side by side and tried to see the easy way,I guess the most simple would be an eng/tranny swap but for some reason my brain wont let me stop there,It says why not add coil spring suspention with ps and disk brakes find a way to mount the vic's rear end to leaf springs and what about drive angles.Then I look at the vic and think it's all there.
Going camping this 3 day week end .Might just deside which way to go.
Ringo ever been to Lethbrige,Milkriver,Red Deer,Camrose,?
thanks again Larry
#9
05-25-2005, 12:17 AM
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Larry I live in Lethbridge, have for a total of 12 years, have been in Milk River at least 8 or 10 times this year, and have cousins and good friends in Red Deer. Lived in Calgary for 26 years , Medicine Hat for 6 and was born in Taber. That's why I say I am from Southern Alberta! 
Never been to Camrose tho, once you are past Red Deer you are dangerously close to the Arctic LOL
Why do you ask?
RF
Never been to Camrose tho, once you are past Red Deer you are dangerously close to the Arctic LOL
Why do you ask?
RF
#10
05-25-2005, 04:28 AM
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05-25-2005, 05:13 AM
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#12
05-25-2005, 06:06 AM
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Hi Ya John,
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. There are several areas other than frames & suspensions that could be cobered too.
I'm tryin to get my oldest son, the one who teaches Video Production, to make a couple of Videos on Frames, Frame Swapping & Suspension Upgrades & Tuning, and Whacking a top a couple inches to slightly reduce the glass area. Another area I've been playing around with is using a later model Inner bed with outer bedside skins off a Slick, which would be the absolute best way to deal with early body on later frames. But I guess it's a case of the "Shoemakers' Kids". . . . we talk a lot but no cameras roll
After being involved with video production all day, all year, he'd rather do something else, like Coach the Track & Cross Country teams, Take care of his animals, home life, and all that. None the less, I can see a market for a Library of Slick Specific Videos.
I thought maybe I could write an article & back it up with Photos too, but the Video is a much Better way to Gitterdun. If A Picture Is Worth 10,000 words what's a good Video worth, huh? Probably a library, but libraries can get tedious.
Rick & I briefly discussed the idea when he was at the Turkey Run last thanksgiving, He saw merit in the Video Idea too. . . . if they came out well, of course.
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. There are several areas other than frames & suspensions that could be cobered too.
I'm tryin to get my oldest son, the one who teaches Video Production, to make a couple of Videos on Frames, Frame Swapping & Suspension Upgrades & Tuning, and Whacking a top a couple inches to slightly reduce the glass area. Another area I've been playing around with is using a later model Inner bed with outer bedside skins off a Slick, which would be the absolute best way to deal with early body on later frames. But I guess it's a case of the "Shoemakers' Kids". . . . we talk a lot but no cameras roll
After being involved with video production all day, all year, he'd rather do something else, like Coach the Track & Cross Country teams, Take care of his animals, home life, and all that. None the less, I can see a market for a Library of Slick Specific Videos.
I thought maybe I could write an article & back it up with Photos too, but the Video is a much Better way to Gitterdun. If A Picture Is Worth 10,000 words what's a good Video worth, huh? Probably a library, but libraries can get tedious.
Rick & I briefly discussed the idea when he was at the Turkey Run last thanksgiving, He saw merit in the Video Idea too. . . . if they came out well, of course.
#13
05-25-2005, 07:28 AM
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RF,
I didn't realize Matt, Lance & Kid were using whole frames. I swear a year or two ago I was looking at somebodys' post who clipped (actually Grand Marquis) suspension & running gear to a 64 Ladder Frame SWB Styleside.
Also somebody over there has hung Twin I, Engine Cross Member on a early ladder frame with later, OEM style, PDB's & P/S too. Engine [Front Most] X Member is a key secret as it carries the suspension as well as later style side mount engines bolt to it.
One more advantage of adding a 65-79 X Member is it drops the front about -3" OA.
"Back in the Day" I had a 63 Integral & went 390 FE, 9" FoMoCo Rear End, a 64 Galaxie 500 gut, buckets console et al route. . . . I couldn't keep it straight in rain and couldn't catch any grip at the rearend. Altho' the "big end" was a Thrill to drive at, it wasn't a kind of thrill I enjoy. I'm not fond of bump steering Light weight single I Beam front ends down the road in 3 digit territory on my speed-o-meter. Heart in the throat white knuckle operation isn't my sort of thing.
I stupidly sold it, getting a twin I Beam 73 SWB F150 in its' place. Also in 73 I picked up the 66 I have now with a bad/burnt 240 I-6. I morphed the 66 several times in last 30+ years but never considered a Passenger car chassis. Although Cr-Vic, GR. Marq & Towne Car are all heavier to begin with. They got to be 3/4 ton rated, No? I mean 6 adults @ 200# each = 1200# or 1/2 ton+, then add luggage & cooler for another 300#.
So I can see in retrospect how their suspension would accomodate the load. Also with trailing arm rear suspension traction problems are minimized. I'd still make that ol' OEM
suspension progressive tho'.
I diddle around with 10th Gen T-Birds.They're McPherson type front strut w/ coils on rear trailing arms with anti sway bar for rear their suspension. I found that I needed to tune their suspensions as they are far to reboundy, giving too much, on hard, multi, G force, loading. Matter of fact while trying to resolve the sloppy, FOX, suspension mess I found Monroe, Sens-a-Track, Progressive Tuned, gas over oil, shocks.
Long ago in the days of muscle car building at my old shop, I discovered progressive loading coil springs for GMs at the now extinct HO Racing, out in Lawndale, CA. Only problem they had was they needed Bilsteins, or KYBs or some other Hi Buck gas/oil shock with matching progressive valving. BUT . . .when ya got it right, WOW!!! I could go in a straight line, power thru' it then short stop all in a straight line, in a GM X or A bodied vehicle. Once I learned of that technology things changed.
Progressive rides soft & easy 1st 1.5 or 2.0 inches / 500 -600lbs, but then it begins to resist in a steep, progressive, bell curve. It always retains and has a touch of give, but more importantly it also maintains a firm, yet forgiving resistance to adverse loads.
There is never any sudden rebounding/ recoiling. . . . . IOW it's possible to chicane at what normally would be dangerous forward speeds then go from chicane to sudden stop, feeling as if there is complete control the whole way. In essencem with a well tuned, progressive style suspension, ya can leave the white knuckles to all the inept drivers on the interstates of the world & enjoy driving again. Great suspension, when coupled with Good Brakes & Tuned steering, it makes handling vehicles in almost every conceivable condition possible....except when on black ice or loose gravel or sand.
What are y'alls' opinion on doing a set of videos like I mentioned to John above? If you have any Input, I'd appreciate hearing it. Maybe even showing it to my son to get him motivated on the project, if nothing else, as a director/ producer. I know it sounds to be a brag, but indulge me this one. . . . every summer he has several of his top students intern at local television broadcast & video production studios in the greater Orlando Area [the home of Universal, MGM, Disney and so forth] yeah, he's good and many of his students are too. With those credentials I am afraid to try making a Video on my own. . . . it could come out like a home movie or a Worlds Funniest Video, or a
"TV Garage" show [American Chopper- Monster Garage etc. don't want more of them].
OH Well. . . . . I ramble ya can get me direct with my screen name @yahoo. com
CIAO Y'All <o> FBp
I didn't realize Matt, Lance & Kid were using whole frames. I swear a year or two ago I was looking at somebodys' post who clipped (actually Grand Marquis) suspension & running gear to a 64 Ladder Frame SWB Styleside.
Also somebody over there has hung Twin I, Engine Cross Member on a early ladder frame with later, OEM style, PDB's & P/S too. Engine [Front Most] X Member is a key secret as it carries the suspension as well as later style side mount engines bolt to it.
One more advantage of adding a 65-79 X Member is it drops the front about -3" OA.
"Back in the Day" I had a 63 Integral & went 390 FE, 9" FoMoCo Rear End, a 64 Galaxie 500 gut, buckets console et al route. . . . I couldn't keep it straight in rain and couldn't catch any grip at the rearend. Altho' the "big end" was a Thrill to drive at, it wasn't a kind of thrill I enjoy. I'm not fond of bump steering Light weight single I Beam front ends down the road in 3 digit territory on my speed-o-meter. Heart in the throat white knuckle operation isn't my sort of thing.
I stupidly sold it, getting a twin I Beam 73 SWB F150 in its' place. Also in 73 I picked up the 66 I have now with a bad/burnt 240 I-6. I morphed the 66 several times in last 30+ years but never considered a Passenger car chassis. Although Cr-Vic, GR. Marq & Towne Car are all heavier to begin with. They got to be 3/4 ton rated, No? I mean 6 adults @ 200# each = 1200# or 1/2 ton+, then add luggage & cooler for another 300#.
So I can see in retrospect how their suspension would accomodate the load. Also with trailing arm rear suspension traction problems are minimized. I'd still make that ol' OEM
suspension progressive tho'.
I diddle around with 10th Gen T-Birds.They're McPherson type front strut w/ coils on rear trailing arms with anti sway bar for rear their suspension. I found that I needed to tune their suspensions as they are far to reboundy, giving too much, on hard, multi, G force, loading. Matter of fact while trying to resolve the sloppy, FOX, suspension mess I found Monroe, Sens-a-Track, Progressive Tuned, gas over oil, shocks.
Long ago in the days of muscle car building at my old shop, I discovered progressive loading coil springs for GMs at the now extinct HO Racing, out in Lawndale, CA. Only problem they had was they needed Bilsteins, or KYBs or some other Hi Buck gas/oil shock with matching progressive valving. BUT . . .when ya got it right, WOW!!! I could go in a straight line, power thru' it then short stop all in a straight line, in a GM X or A bodied vehicle. Once I learned of that technology things changed.
Progressive rides soft & easy 1st 1.5 or 2.0 inches / 500 -600lbs, but then it begins to resist in a steep, progressive, bell curve. It always retains and has a touch of give, but more importantly it also maintains a firm, yet forgiving resistance to adverse loads.
There is never any sudden rebounding/ recoiling. . . . . IOW it's possible to chicane at what normally would be dangerous forward speeds then go from chicane to sudden stop, feeling as if there is complete control the whole way. In essencem with a well tuned, progressive style suspension, ya can leave the white knuckles to all the inept drivers on the interstates of the world & enjoy driving again. Great suspension, when coupled with Good Brakes & Tuned steering, it makes handling vehicles in almost every conceivable condition possible....except when on black ice or loose gravel or sand.
What are y'alls' opinion on doing a set of videos like I mentioned to John above? If you have any Input, I'd appreciate hearing it. Maybe even showing it to my son to get him motivated on the project, if nothing else, as a director/ producer. I know it sounds to be a brag, but indulge me this one. . . . every summer he has several of his top students intern at local television broadcast & video production studios in the greater Orlando Area [the home of Universal, MGM, Disney and so forth] yeah, he's good and many of his students are too. With those credentials I am afraid to try making a Video on my own. . . . it could come out like a home movie or a Worlds Funniest Video, or a
"TV Garage" show [American Chopper- Monster Garage etc. don't want more of them].
OH Well. . . . . I ramble ya can get me direct with my screen name @yahoo. com
CIAO Y'All <o> FBp
#14
05-25-2005, 07:38 AM
Posting Guru
62 red truck
BTW. . . when you're fabricating Body mounts on your Cr Vic chassis, be sure to end up under the OEM 62 F Series position as that's where the body is engineered to carry both the load & stressing as well as handle the resistance the body insulator transmits back during loading & stressing, in case you hadn't considered that yet.
As for the frame, almost any place a correctlly hung body mount is installed will carry its' loading & stress. There's no resistance as the mount becomes integral with the frame and the entire frame will absorb it.BUT. . body will fatigue & crack if you do not use 62 F series OEM positioning. . . .
FBp
BTW. . . when you're fabricating Body mounts on your Cr Vic chassis, be sure to end up under the OEM 62 F Series position as that's where the body is engineered to carry both the load & stressing as well as handle the resistance the body insulator transmits back during loading & stressing, in case you hadn't considered that yet.
As for the frame, almost any place a correctlly hung body mount is installed will carry its' loading & stress. There's no resistance as the mount becomes integral with the frame and the entire frame will absorb it.BUT. . body will fatigue & crack if you do not use 62 F series OEM positioning. . . .
FBp
#15
05-25-2005, 09:00 AM
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Pete, the video idea is a winner IMO. You can start with Larry's Crown Vic! LOL
...Here's one I would like to see but it would take some solid knackers... a big back window roof chop. If anyone could do it it would be you...
The T'bird IRS is very intriguing, wonder if you could sling that under a Slick.. I've been told its a 4 bolt removal...
John, I tried and tried and editted and editted and finally gave up on getting those links to work. Suffice to say that the Iowa Boys in the Slick60's are the boys with the expertise. It was Lance's that I rode in at Slickstock, with Garbz' son Jr at the wheel, when I found out how impressive those babys are. Unfortunately, Jr is still paying his dues to Dad for that ride LOL, poor kid.
Lance and I were both bald after that trip.
Larry, I get parts delivered to the Montana side of the border, so I usually make the run to there about once a month. Running out of money tho, haven't been lately
I have a good buddy who picked up a '64 4x4 in Great falls last summer. He stole the thing.. Wish I could find a deal like that. Was a fun and I was in Great Falls 8 times last year.
Small world it is.
...Here's one I would like to see but it would take some solid knackers... a big back window roof chop. If anyone could do it it would be you...
The T'bird IRS is very intriguing, wonder if you could sling that under a Slick.. I've been told its a 4 bolt removal...
John, I tried and tried and editted and editted and finally gave up on getting those links to work. Suffice to say that the Iowa Boys in the Slick60's are the boys with the expertise. It was Lance's that I rode in at Slickstock, with Garbz' son Jr at the wheel, when I found out how impressive those babys are. Unfortunately, Jr is still paying his dues to Dad for that ride LOL, poor kid.
Lance and I were both bald after that trip.
Larry, I get parts delivered to the Montana side of the border, so I usually make the run to there about once a month. Running out of money tho, haven't been lately
I have a good buddy who picked up a '64 4x4 in Great falls last summer. He stole the thing.. Wish I could find a deal like that. Was a fun and I was in Great Falls 8 times last year. Small world it is.
Last edited by Ringo Fonebone; 05-25-2005 at 09:38 AM.