Here's where I am: I currently own 3 vehicles. 2 of them are Jeeps from the 1990's. My 3rd and newest vehicle is a 2003 Chevy Suburban Z71 4X4 - leather heated seats etc..
Every one of my vehicles is fully offroad capable. I can drive any of them to Pismo Beach and not get stuck. Every one of them can easily tackle rain washed out offroad trails; and, I know, because I've done it, many times. I've never gotten stuck. Ever.

I even read one thread on these forums that basically says your truck will be damaged or uncontrollable if it is equipped with a locking front differential.
Uh, News Flash.... My Suburban had a front locking differential from factory and still to this day, Chevy & GM is making them this way.
Heck, my Suburban has tip-toed onto the sand many times, while Fords, that are trying to follow me get stuck. Heck, I've pulled a number of Fords back to safety.

How often do I go offroading?
I just came back from Titus Canyon this weekend.
You should have seen the crowd gathering around my Suburban when I exited the canyon; because, many people thought you needed a Jeep to go thru Titus Canyon.

So, here's where I'm going: I am currently an elected member of my district's central committee and yes I have the R by my name. Time, economy and politics have changed, since 2003. Obama took over GM. The dealership that sold me my Suburban was shut down; because, of their Republican leanings; while, a Democrat donating dealer was allowed to open up a GM dealership less than a 1/4 mile away, not even 6 months later.
In the (Dealers VS GM) Class-Action Lawsuit, it was admitted in court, that these shutdown dealers were not chosen randomly, rather, they were deliberately shutdown because they were Republican leaning; and, the courts did nothing about it. Crooked Crooked Stuff.

I've got a kid that just entered High School; so, I will be needing a new vehicle in just a few years. My current vehicles are getting old and harder to find parts for.

I need to know that Ford can hear me...

I have been looking at Expedition EL's.
I have been looking at Navigator EL's.
I have been looking at F-150's and F-250's.
I like the aluminum chassis.
I don't like Eco-Boost. I don't like turbos over regular unleaded pump gas.
If you want me to run a turbo, You better give me a diesel; and, you know, where I work, we have numerous diesels running all day, killing me. But, Some of the latest equipment requires that DEF fluid and I think that DEF technology is fantastic. Even the recent VW DEF smear campaign was political and warrantless, as was eventually revealed; and, yes I do have concerns with Ford's involvement with Google. But that's not the point.

The point is:
A D person is more likely to depend on the government. More likely to take the bus. Less likely to feel comfortable offroading. Less likely to depend on only himself and his equipment.
Meanwhile, an R person is more likely to want to go offroading.
Take a look at the Red & Blue States.
Ford is not really listening to their Target Market.

I want to buy a Ford; but, I'm not finding what I really want.

I want a TRUE 4WD, just like in my Suburban. The front diff locks.
My Suburban came with a 3 inch lift, right out of factory, with tires 3 inches taller; so, when at the dealership, the Z71 sat 6 inches higher than the LT; and, that's why I went with the Z71. Haven't changed a thing since.
Why can't I get an EXECUTIVE style vehicle that can actually go where no one else goes; and, then turn around and chauffeur a groom or bride to their wedding? And think about it. In today's economy, 4WD's are being treated more like RV's and are staying rather clean; so, it's more likely to stay the nicest vehicle at the home.

And Yes, I REQUIRE heated seats.
Ever strain your back while changing a tire, offroad?
That's when you find out that heated seats really are life-saving equipment.
That was me changing a tire on a Toyota; because, Toyota's target market doesn't want to be bothered with vehicle maintenance; and, subsequently, the guy forgot how to change a tire; so, I probably saved his life by changing it for him; thus, straining my back, when I lifted his blown out tire into his Highlander.

And for newer technology, since 2003....
I'm liking the newer vehicles - backup camera.
But, I would love to have a dash camera to be able to post my offroading experiences on Youtube. The washed out ruts, all being recorded. Also, There's been some moments where I would have loved to record my passenger's reactions to the trails. You want to talk about getting some hits on Youtube..... That would've for sure.

And then there is the planning for all of this.
Do you know how much studying I have to do, just to find these offroading trails?
Some trails are popular.
Some trails I go on that nobody else goes on.
In the desert I lay tracks down, I have come back a year later only to find that no one else had been there, since I was last there.
We know manufacturers track where their vehicles go.
Start a Ford trail planning website.
Take a lot of the guess work out of it.
I use my portable Garmin all of the time.
That thing still doesn't know where I want to go. Still doesn't think I can get there. In 2003, only the highest end vehicles had navigation; but now, it's almost standard equipment.
In the Navigation System, increase the accuracy.
Use GPS; but, tie it in with GLONASS, the European GNSS, Chinese BDS. Make the thing really ROCK
Heck, everybody knows how to get to Vegas; but, a FORD TRAILS system, where it knows where Fords have been over which trails.
I'll admit to getting nervous going on new trails, that I'd never been on; and, it would bring some peace of mind knowing that other vehicles like mine, had been there before.
I'd love to join the Jeep clubs; but, a lot of them are just too radical, even when they say they're not.
Anyways that's enough for now.
Thanks for reading.
Hopefully Ford can deliver.
I know some of it is "Pie In The Sky"; but, one can make a wish, right?
Peace!

 

What kind of locker do you have in the front of your Sub? I haven't followed Ch*vy very closely since about the '80s, but back then Ford was the only one that even offered a limited slip in a front axle. I hadn't heard that Ch*vy ever added a front limited slip, but I certainly could have missed that. And if your Sub has a front limited slip, that's not at all the same as a front locker.

GM is the only manufacturer I'm aware of that's offered an automatic locker from the factory, with the G80 (often called Gov-Lock). But I've only ever heard of them being in rear axles.

D*dge, J**p and maybe others have offered selectable lockers in the front. No one's ever said that an unlocked selectable locker causes handling problems in a front axle. And all of the factory selectables that I'm aware of will only engage when in low range.

Because yes, a locker in the front axle DOES make a vehicle at least dangerous, if not undriveable. At low speeds nothing happens quick enough to get you in trouble, but there's no way any manufacturer is going to sell a vehicle with the liability problems they'd have if someone drove their vehicle on a snow-covered freeway at freeway speeds with a front locker.

 

The only GM with a front diff lock I know of as an option was the H3. CUCV military 1 ¼ ton trucks had a front limited slip. Other than that I know of no other factory front traction aiding differential in a GM product.
That burb has a front axle disconnect instead of locking hubs, but no locking diff unless someone put it in.

 

Yes. I know I'm not a total gear head.
I may not have the right terminology; but, I'm pretty sure all four wheels spin when commanded into 4WD.
You sit on the beach and watch the Los Angeles County Lifeguards patrol the beaches all day, every day, in their Chevy Trucks.
I myself have done it in my Suburban, in Pismo, and I've helped pull out Fords trying to follow me.
Watch this video: I have never seen the lifeguards driving Fords.

So now of course, you realize that I like to watch videos; just to see what's out there; and, then I find this and it has really stayed with me.
I would like to see Ford respond to THIS video:

I'd like to see Expeditions, Navigators, F150's & F250's be able to take this challenge.
When I see that, I'll be a buyer then.
Kiddo is in 9th Grade; so, the driver's license is right around the corner.
My vehicle will be passed down and I want to have the same capability as my kiddo.
I Don't want to have to say, "Hey kid, can I borrow your car this weekend?"

 

As I said, I could be wrong because I really don't care about new Chevies at all so I haven't paid very close attention. But I'd be surprised if Chevy has a limited slip in their front axles. And I'd be SHOCKED if they have an automatic locker.

On the life guard video, so what. My Bronco could easily do that in 2WD. And as to life guards using Chevies rather than Fords, that's mostly due to who they were able to get the best deal from (and whether the head of Purchasing for Los Angeles County was a Ford or Chevy guy).

In the ramp comparison video you're seeing the difference between traction-aiding rear differentials (I'm almost positive that all the trucks shown have open diffs in the front). I won't be cynical and I'll assume that they all had the best traction aiding diff available from the factory. For the Ford and the Dodge that would be a clutch-type limited slip and for the Chevy it would be a G80 (except that a Dodge Power Wagon would have had selectable lockers front and rear and would be way better than any other factory truck in tests like this). There's no question that a G80 would do better in this test than a clutch-type limited slip.

If, as a Chevy guy, you want to trash-talk Fords, yes GM offering the G80 is a step up. But it's not a step I'd care to make anyway (the G80 is probably the least reliable automatic locker, and if I had one in a truck that I intended to use, I'd take it out and put a Detroit in it).

Also there are aftermarket lockers that are at least as good as a G80 available for any truck. I know that most people will never modify their vehicle at all. But most enthusiasts expect to make mods, so the better choices offered by the aftermarket are a perfectly fine response to that test for us.

 

I don't mean to trash talk; but, again I'm being told that both front wheels should not spin, on this forum; but, then helping a friend diagnose his problem, I see this video, right at the 4 minute mark, the guy saying that both front wheels should spin.


Luckily for my buddy, his issue was only a $200 problem, and all he had to replace was his Transfer Case Shift Motor.

I know a 2 wheel drive can easily travel the sand; but, things are different when it's time to stop and turn; and, that's when I'm bailing them out, even the vehicles that say 4X4 right on them, yet, I've never been stuck myself. Why is that? I never deflate my tires either. My theory is I'll wait until I'm stuck; but, that has never come.

 

2011 and newer super duties have a selectable rear locker available. F150's have it as well but I'm not sure on the years.
Either way that burb was open diff in the front from the factory, g80 in the rear with a 265/70r17 tire.

 

Trying to understand, I looked up G80.
So, my front diff is rather regular? I think I can understand that now.

The secret to my Suburbans success is the G80 rear end?
Does Ford have an answer for that?



And with all the washed out trails I've been on, I've done this so many times.
The reason I didn't get stuck was the G80 rear diff?


Has Ford put something similar in their vehicles?
If they haven't, will they sometime soon?

 

So, I was reading somewhere that in 2011 Ford installed Electronic Locking Rear Axles on their FX4 packages and the Raptor.
I guess what I'm interested in is an FX4 package on an Expedition or a Navigator; but, it doesn't exist.... yet.
Where I live, near the airport, a lot of limo companies park nearby, waiting to pick up their clients. I see those sweet looking black Navigators and I think, raise it up 6 inches, (now) put an electronic locking rear axle and we're in business. Any thoughts on making that happen?

I'm sure there's a market for something like this in the Executive Transportation/Protection Business.
The Escalade already does it, minus the lift kit; which, wouldn't be hard to do.

 

According to what 82F100SWB posted earlier, yes. (I don't care about new Fords any more than I do new Chevies, so I haven't kept up with them either).

As to the G80 being so great, it's a locker, which gives the most positive traction. And it's an automatic locker which means it works without you having to flip switches (like you do to "select" a selectable locker). But generally the problem with automatic lockers is they can be a little annoying in street driving, because all of them except the G80 only drive the inside tire in turns. That gives weird handling quirks in the rear axle (and absolutely dangerous handling when used in a front axle at speed).

The G80 gets away from that by having an entirely different locking mechanism than all other lockers, and it drives both tires in turns, just like an open diff, but then it locks when the speed difference gets too great. The downside to that is that it's locking at speed, as opposed to all other lockers that are not moving (relatively to themselves internally) when they lock. Locking at speed is harsher on the components. Also the way it locks puts more stress on its components. So the G80 is generally not thought very well of. It's OK for relatively gentle use, but you don't see people using it in rockcrawling, mudding, or other high load / horsepower pursuits.

 

welcome to FTE.
a lot of people do not realize the difference between a limited slip differential and a locker. so they call a LS diff a locker.
and then you get the "book smart" people that know for a fact they are correct because they THINK they read it somewhere in a book, and retell the story to everyone they see. normal, decent folk think these people know what they are talking about because so many of them are saying the same thing that it must be true.
then those decent normal folk come to dedicated automotive websites like this and find out everything they have been told for years was not true.

a limited slip front differential in good shape will act like a locked differential in many ways.
the big difference is that there is still slippage in a LS., where a locker has no spider gears in the differential, both axles are connected solid and there is no slippage between them. so if you break an axle the steering wheel is going to get ripped out of your hand. if you are unlucky enough to have your hand inside the wheel, bones are going to get broken.
and if you are really unlucky, you will not be able to get off the throttle and on the brakes fast enough to avoid hitting whatever is on the side of the truck with the unbroken axle when the truck makes a sudden sharp turn.

 

I'm starting to get caught up on your videos.

An open diff (like almost all factory trucks have in the front axle) does drive both tires. However, by its design is sends equal torque to both tires. If one side takes very little torque to spin it (like if it's on mud or ice, or in the air) the open diff will only send that small amount of torque to the other tire. So it's very possible to spin only one tire with an open diff.

However, the diff is always sending torque to both tires, so it's also very possible to spin both tires. This will only happen when both tires get about the same amount of traction.

In the case of the video you posted, they were looking for something completely different. Because both tires were in the air, they both took almost no torque to spin, and they were close enough to the same torque that both turned as he spun the driveshaft. It's not uncommon for one brake to drag more than the other which would result in only the tire with less drag turning in this situation, but it's not surprising that both tires turned either.

In that video he commented that seeing both tires turn indicated that the "front axle actuator" was locked in. This is often called a center axle disconnect, and it's a weird way that Chevy and Dodge use to reduce drag when in 2WD. Ford has typically used locking hubs for the same purpose. So the video saying that the front axle actuator is locked in would be like saying the front hubs were locked on a vehicle that had locking hubs. it has nothing to do with the front differential.

 

I already respond to this but I hadn't looked at the videos yet. Now that I have, they are both accurately showing the differences between open diffs, limited slip diffs and a rear locker in some very specific situations. And yes, a locker will be MUCH better than an open diff or a limited slip in those specific situations. But any automatic locker would work just like the G80 does in those videos, and any selectable locker would be just as effective (although would require you to engage it).

The G80 is unique in that it is an automatic locker with very good road manners and that it's the only automatic locker you can get from the truck manufacturer (because of its road manners). But as I said before, it's far from the only automatic locker, and far from the most reliable as well. Still, it's a good option for a mostly street driven vehicle that sees only light off-roading.

 

The GM boys nickname for the G80 Gov Lock is Gov Bomb for a reason. Reliability is not one of their strong suits.
A selectable is the ultimate choice.
I very recently had my first snow wheeling experience with a rig that has a front automatic locker and a very tight limited slip in the rear. On anything but flat ground all it wanted to do was go sideways in the direction of the grounds slope. It was not what you call fun.
I personally am not a big fan of automatic lockers. I have been a passenger in a rollover that was caused by a Detroit unlocking during a donut from wheelhop, and my old GMC was scary in snow even with its G80, the only way to make it unlock in 4x4 so the truck would steer was to dump the clutch. I much prefer having an open, spooled or selectable differential as what they are going to do is predictable 100% of the time.

 

People often say that Detroits have weird quirks when they unlock. That's not true. I'm not saying a different Detroit quirk didn't lead to your rollover, but it didn't happen when the Detroit unlocked.

The only way a Detroit will unlock (or any other automatic locker, G80 being the possible exception) is when one of the tires tries to overrun the ring gear. This happens when you start around a corner and the outside tire starts to turn faster. It never happens abruptly, so it's not hard to deal with. You do get some torque steer if you're on the power very hard, which will tend to make the truck straighten out. But the correction is to turn the steering wheel a little more, and since you were already in the act of turning the steering wheel to start the turn, it's almost unnoticeable.

An automatic locker will do some weird things if you get on the gas hard in a corner. You only are driving the inside tire so it's easy to break it free. Then when it catches up with the outside tire the Detroit locks and abruptly gives torque to the outside tire which often breaks free at that point. Then you usually spin out.

It can also feel weird if you get off the throttle in a corner, especially with a manual trans. Since you are only driving the inside tire, and since the compression braking is also only acting on the inside tire, you switch the torque steer from trying to straighten you out to trying to tighten the corner. That can be very annoying when driving a CJ5 on winding mountain road! But the locker isn't locking or unlocking in this situation. It stays unlocked through the whole thing (unless you spin the tire).

I personally really like an automatic locker in the rear when it's justified and when the truck won't be doing a lot of towing. I'll never have anything else in my rockcrawler Bronco. But I don't recommend them in a vehicle that will be driven by your teenage son! They're not hard to adapt to, but they do require some care when driving them.


And I've never had a G80, I know they work completely differently from Detroits lunch box lockers and every other automatic locker I've ever heard of. The way they are different could make them not unlock as easily. But I've never had any trouble with a Detroit or a Lock Right not unlocking.