[QUOTE=M-S-G;14970938]Also, Price isn't a concern. There is a ton of engineering going into the product and that's not cheap.

At the same token, this is basically a 15 year old product. My beef is with lack of progress and innovation.

You'll shoot your eye out kid.....they'll never put a man on the moon.

Seriously though, how many here would've laughed me outta here 10 years ago for proposing a $5 app and a $20 Bluetooth/OBD to do what only the dealers could do?

I think the next level for these trucks, if there were a market for it, would be completely new PCM that could do it all.

 

Those may end up being the words of the sage.

Reps sent.

Pop

 

I shouldn't interject, as it's not a place I really should be, but that being said...

The OP has a point. The fact that the Ford PCM can't do certain things based on the tune doesn't mean that a somewhat intelligent tuner couldn't at least take some of the "manual adjustment" (**** turning) out of the equation. If that means the controller has to emit a beep or flash a light to tell you to let of the go-pedal for a certain amount of time so it can change the tune for you, and then beep again when it's complete, than why not?

I'll admit that I'm not one of the "hands off" type of people - if I wanted a certain tune or set of parameters, I want to set it myself, I'd rather not have it be automatic. But I can see, especially with PCMs that can be retuned on-the-fly, why at least the OP (and I'm assuming a few more than just him) would like the ability to hook up a trailer and know that it's now running a tow tune. Or be able to see how much throttle and boost, and what gear the tranny is in, and watch those to see how heavy the load is, and SCREAM or at least change the tune on-the-fly to something a little more forgiving.

It might even be in the tuner manufacturer's best interests to do exactly that, so they don't get the typical flame-fest of "your tunes blew my engine" when the guy forgot to switch out of "black smoke hell" tune and didn't watch the EGTs

 

I'm pretty happy with 8 tunes on an F5, gives me all the control I need. And with the sippy-straw limitation of the sensors available thru the PCM connector, plus on-board barometer, there's maybe not much more to glean from the OE setup.

But imagine if you will a box with yellow tape, and inside is a replacement iPCM with the computing power now available on your cell phone, plus a handful of new sensors. Most are just fast-talking versions of the slow-reporting OE sensors and bolt right in. Plus a few additional sensors like fuel pressure, and yet-to-be-developed glow plugs that double as thermocouples to monitor individual cylinder temps. An afternoon of turning wrenches and maybe the limits of tuning open up a bit. What if the PCM could control each cylinder to 1200* under any condition while you mindlessly mash the pedal? What if by monitoring pitch and yaw over time the PCM can "feel" when the truck is loaded and adjust trans tuning accordingly?

Like I said I'm satisfied with the OE tech as it is. It's a very robust system as a result of few moving parts, and added complexity will not make that better. But I also have complete faith in human ingenuity. Recall the chicken littles freaking out over "peak oil"? So I have no doubt improvements could be made if folks spent time on it.

 

Nah, I disagree Art, and it isn't because you're a Super. With your computer knowledge, you have a different take on things compared to some of us, plus with your knowledge of vehicles, I could see you doing like Curtis (Pocket) and tuning your own rig....if we could get you switched over to the dark side of smokers.

Stewart

 

M-S-G, I do think the design of these tuners could be updated to something a little more current...and intuitive. Something beyond a **** or push button LED screen on the dash. As this thread has displayed, the demand simply isn't there yet.

I already carry around a smart phone, why not make more use of it like we have with our scan tools?

Looks like companies such as SCT are getting the idea. In 5 years, they have gone from this behemoth:
SCT Performance - SCT X3 Power Flash Ford Programmer**Part Number: 3000

To this:
SCT Performance - iTSX / TSX for Android Wireless Ford Vehicle Programmer**Part Number: 4015

The technology is there, we've seen what it can do in the scan tool category. It's just a matter of time and demand. Once you have those covered, the competition will soon follow. Which, as we know, benefits the end user.

The tunes themselves are a different story. As pointed out here, some are maintained from over a decade of tuning experience. Hard to beat that kind of legacy.

 

The main thing standing in your way since you seem to favor the diagnostic link connector is that the data stream you get has absolutely nothing to do with the ROM that actually operates the engine and transmission. To reprogram that, you better have some working knowledge of the voltage required, the seed and key algorithm, and lastly any or all of the thousands of lines of code that make these trucks tick.

SAE mandates the diagnostic addressing allocations in the RAM....but the operational binary in the ROM is damn tricky to get at.

 

I could not agree more. If your current PCM fails and you have to find a replacement at a decent price....GOOD LUCK. The few that you find in salvage yards cost $250-400 almost as much as the ones that have been remanned by Cardone and sold by NAPA and Autozone $375-550. They are monopolizing the market. Compare that to a PCM of the same vintage for a 5.4L $50-100. It will only get worse as time progresses. What is a guy going to do 10 years from now when his, now low mileage, 7.3 needs a PCM?

Does anyone have an idea of how many of these trucks were produced vs are still on the road?

As far as a universal PCM goes, I think the pin-out is different between certain DPC-4XX models and revisions. I do not know where it changes. Could that be addressed in software or would there have to be a physical adapter?

The point is: if someone could do it, there would probably be a market.

 

I looked at that SCT performance thing. Do you believe we can change the spark advance like it says on the page? No? That "brochure" is generic for all the makes/models/years since 1996. The vehicle is what limits what you can and can't do. We can't do a lot of the stuff in the brochure. Automatic intuitive tuning? I thought of that when I first got into this, then I saw what was involved. We're not talking a new tuner, we're talking a new PCM.

The PCM was developed about the same time Microsoft was making Windows 98. While sitting comfortably behind your Android, Win 8.1, or iOS, what you propose is akin to modernizing the behavior of an Intel 486-based computer - before USB was common. Before Bluetooth. Before Wifi. With a freaking floppy drive and a frontside bus that couldn't keep up with today's internet, let alone 3d video games. Remember DOS and the problem with the 640K RAM cap? Windows 98 and everything before that was DOS-based.

I'm talking mainstream computers to bring our heads back to a time when the PCM was cutting-edge. Our technology advances so quickly that we soon forget what it was like before multi-point touchscreen, voice command, and gesture control - all science fiction at that time.

The PCM is also proprietary. Only part of the OBDII data is "universal" (by law), the rest needs to be interpreted via a Ford Enhanced bundle. The tuning is another matter - that was never meant to be anything but a Ford thing. Did you know there are still some "secrets" (if my information is correct) in the Ford PCM that haven't been cracked yet? Ask a tuner how exactly the EBP sensor effects everything in the tune, and I hear tell it's a deer-in-the-headlights moment.

It took Ford engineers years of experience, development, documented knowledge, and a big freaking budget to pop out the PCM. How many new-age PCMs would have to be sold to get the Return On Investment? How many Ford enthusiasts out there are willing to fork over real dollars for a bluetooth-age PCM - considering many here would rather drop $20 on a risky OBDII adapter than a $100 sure bet? It's not that $20 is a stupid choice, it's smart if it works (mostly, it's lucky) - but it's an indicator of how little the public understands the guts of our electronic devices. Bear in mind, an iPCM might run $1000 - $1500 to make it a profitable venture. You don't agree? How much is an Infinity? Are peepees shriveling yet?

 

Rich, did you edit your config.sys and autoexec.bat files to eek out a bit more performance?

 

There's a binary wizard on the Sportsmobileforum.com who is putting a 2013 Dodge Cummins 6.7 with a 6-speed Allison into a E350 5.4 van:

Sportsmobileforum.com ? View topic - 6.7L Cummins conversion project

How he has gotten into the PCM to determine how to combine the two harnesses and to remove the unnecessary wires is amazing. We will see how it all turns out.

Having a new PCM for a non-regen non-DPF diesel would be pretty cool, although it would likely still not pass CARB muster in California.

M-S-G: If you've got Cody intrigued, you are getting somewhere. Anything can be done with enough brain power, ingenuity and time. (I don't have any of those three things.) I say GoodOnYa Mate if you go for it. Start a thread here when you begin.

Once the knowledgeable members here see you actually doing what you're boasting, they will likely step up to help you. Before then they likely believe that it is just day dreaming...

jhl3: I edited my config.sys and autoexec.bat files to eek out more performance. Edit: It was in the original IBM PC which had the 8086 chip architecture which had the 640K basic RAM addressing limit.

 

You certainly have a way with words, Tug!!! Ha Ha

 

Didn't everybody? I still do, in a way... but through the features built into Windows XP, 7, and 8.1 (I scrapped everything Vista before 7 was available). When the built-in features don't step up, I hack my way into the registry, services, and Device Manager (don't try this as an experiment - this can be akin to wiping the tune from your PCM).

I say all of this because that's not unlike what we could be dealing with on a tablet-powerful PCM. Apps, software, firmware, settings - all with the ability to assault the vehicle, your drive, your patience, and your wallet. The old hardware with limited programming manipulation is very very robust and can't physically allow too many mistakes in lines of code to occur.

Oh... MSDOS was the limiting factor on RAM addressing, if I recall. The 386 had a software work-around, and the 486 had a hardwired work-around (not a true fix) - but operating systems advanced past the DOS base and that was the end of our concern with it (as consumers). Computers still have to be backward-compatible, so there are a number of limits in RAM addressing that the OS developers deal with, but it's invisible to the end user. iOS and Android did not suffer these growing pains - they have their own... but it's a lot easier to make a sleek machine with those than it is with a system that has legacy obligations. Sounds like a car company, doesn't it?

 

No. Actually, I think we were in the minority...although there may be an over representation here on this site due to most of us having to be techies to an extent.

I get what you are saying in reference to cost of development etc. This is where brilliant private start-ups can succeed. Little to no overhead, engineers butting heads with one another is eliminated, and no one above you squinting, turning red, screaming "NO", and kicking you out of the office.

Emulators can be written to make most things backwards compatible...is the original 8 or 16 bit?

I just priced a new OEM Ford PCM DPC-422 PMT1=$1109.21 and the guy said that the one he found was three states away. He also stated that it is slated for obsolescence if it isn't already obsolete.....he would have to check. Then it has to be flashed for an additional $150.

I am not trying to argue, just pointing out that the price, due to scarcity or worse, is already on par or close to it...it is only getting worse.

As Tim said, if the OP can bring it close to fruition, then others will begin to believe and jump on board. If you look at the price we pay just for the physical portion of the tuner you are generally a good ways toward paying for it (a new technology).

 

That is a very long way to say:



Long before shops like DP or PHP or the like came around, all we had were companies like SCT or Banks etc. Many of them made the first acceptable tunes for stock injector trucks before moving on to newer models. Which, let's be honest, stock likely covers 90% or more of the trucks on the road today. At that, you should remember that the bigger injectors we enjoy today weren't all all that common back then and are still a VERY niche market.

For a large business like SCT, it makes little sense to devote huge amounts of time into a specific generation for a single engine for heavily modified components. On that same coin, that is where the smaller shops come in. Which, I will also remind you that some of them had to learn the hard way. I won't name names, but doing a search for the old '80hp Economy' tunes will leave you horrified. Glad they got that all ironed out eventually...

I will also remind you that guys like Bill got their start writing tunes for SCT before leaving to form their own shops. (If I remember correctly...)

I hate to break it to you, but these trucks in even mild stock form are NOT special snowflakes. You made the same rant when the $25 scan tools first came along and you ate your words then too. In the end, the technology will continue to evolve...with or without you.

EDIT: I should also clarify, the concept of developing an entirely new PCM was never even implied in my case. As stated before, this is a very niche market to begin with. However, the old excuse of 'it's based on an old technology' doesn't mean the ability to manipulate it cannot be improved upon. Want me to go run another 'impossible' cylinder contribution test with my smartphone that you ranted and raved couldn't be done?

I don't know where to even start with this cluster****.