I'm interested in public opinion with regards to airline pilots and their respective unions.

Lately, airline management has been using public opinion against airline pilots. Most pilots have had pay and work rule concessions shoved down their throats by management. United, US Air, and American have all agreed upon large concessions. The problem is, they have taken most of these concessions only after a majority of their pilots have been layed off.

This is now filtering down to the regional airlines (puddle jumpers). I work for a regional and am thus biased. Here is the problem, we get eleven days off a month. To most that seems like a lot, but consider the fact that we don't see home for the other 20 days in a month and even less for a month with less than 31, 30, and 28 days. In addition, management is asking for us to take less pay. You all may think that airline pilots make over a 100,000, but most don't know that regional pilots make less than 22,000 and management wants us to make less.

MY goal is to better edjucate the public to our plight. Public opinion is huge when it deals with your ability to negotiate. Thus, I would like to know your opinion.

 

I don't think it's a union/non-union issue, or pilots vs. airlines.

For me it comes down to proper business management.

The cost of flying has gone up considerably, and yet the service is worse, and the airlines are in financial difficulty. Air Canada is bankrupt.

Why?

I have no idea who's to blame. I just know that as a customer, it's bloody annoying. I don't know the first thing about the inner workings of the airline industry, but I do know that no other industry seems to be as poorly managed and operated. Normal business practices seem to be lost on them, #1 being customer service.

I'll put this bluntly, as you stated you'd like to hear public opinion.

I don't think your work situation is particularly unusual, I know plenty of people that work shift work on much the same hourly pattern as yourself. Some are isolated, some are home everyday (though they are isolated from the world by the nature of their hours, so might as well be away from home), so I can't say as I pity you there. As for your wage, I have no idea about wages in the US, so I can't comment. Again, I can't speak from experience, but it doesn't seem to me that your job is particularly more dangerous or stressful than that of an iron worker or business owner, so I don't see any need for extra pay to compensate for that.

The bottom line for me is that the airlines need to do whatever is necessary to run a profitable business that best serves the consumer. Pilots wages should be a small portion of the measures they take to make the airline profitable. By the same token, if profitabilty means increasing fares, then so be it. I'd rather those that fly pay for their flights than me the tax payer.

Waxy

 

I don't fly

so i don't know much on the topic

 

Unions by their very definition are self-serving institutions, designed to protect the intrests of the few. I think the public is still mulling over whether the flying public's interests are best served by pilot's unions or the free market. Pilot's unions will argue their track record of safety best serves to protect the pubic and this is a valid point. The airline industry has been almost too successful on this issue.

However, the pubic also wants the lowest airfares possible and therein, lies the crux of your problem. With non-unionized airlines flying just as successfully, the public is currently looking for the balance between safety and cost.

I have a bit of a problem in accepting your complaints of time spent away from home as all this is known before you accept such a position. Such inconveniences go with the territory in any truly professional job, whether it be medical doctor or airline pilot. It is also one of the reasons such people are often more highly compensated than a regular 9 to 5 worker.

Perhaps you are old enough to remember the high flying, glory days of the airline industry. When travel was glamorous, exciting and service was all 'first class'. Sadly, those days were over too soon. Today, the airline industry is just another part of the nation's transportation system. The pride and prestige of being an airline pilot is waning, replaced by the cold reality that your profession is viewed no differently than professional truckers, train engineers or other mass transit workers.

The pubic verdict on continuing to support pilot unions is still out. But take heed: we remember all to well, the work slow down by United pilots and the attendant travel disruptions. You risk falling into the same pit of public shame as pampered athletes who go on 'strike' for reasons the ticket buying public cannot fathom and do not support.

 

In my own personal opinion, unions have out lived their usefulness long ago. They're pretty much just a legalized mafia. They protect the lazy and screw the hard working.

I'm sure they have their good points, but I don't believe in them.

I earned my job and every promotion/raise on my own, and that's the way I like it.

Kevin K.

 

Your points are all valid, to a point.

Compensation: I understand that many people out there make less or as much as an airline pilot and are away from home just the same. Major Airline Pilots have always been well compensated for a variety of reasons. One the responsibility, two the training and time required to become qualified for the job, and three the lifestyle (time away from home, no set schedule, etc..)

Unions: I can think of maybe one airline that is non-union and somewhat successful. That's JETBlue. Southwest is a union carrier. Many people knock unions and I question their validity in many industries. I ask you to think of this though. In becoming a pilot, one spends all his/her time training to do one thing, fly an airplane. We aren't taught management skills, we don't learn about accounting, we don't learn how to build things, we don't learn medicine, our skill is simply to take off, fly to a point, and put a heavy piece of machinery safely on the ground while moving close to or over 200 mph. Once you get an airline job there are hundreds of other aspiring pilots wanting your job and they would probably fly for peanuts to get it. Not to mention the pilots at other airlines that would love to take over your flying in order to see faster promotions. My point is that the job is highly specialized and thus it would be difficult to leave the industry and find a similar paying job. Without the unions protection,. management would fire and hire new pilots at a mind boggling rate simply to keep cost down. Do you want a fresh low time, low experience pilot flying you and your family or would you rather have an experienced, high time pilot?

Maybe we should discuss the public's view on airline management.

Answer me this, could I learn your job in less than six years? If the answer is no you're welcome to come drive my bus, but I sure won't be riding in the back.

 

I think we should have "Zeppelin Pilots" unions too...

I shudder to think what the future of aviation may eventually be. Perhaps it will be brighter than I imagine it, for all of our sakes I hope so.

 

It takes six years to get a pilots license? What's involved with the process? That's longer than going to college.

 

Qualifications to become and airline pilot.

Private Pilots License.
Instrument Rating
Multi-Engine Rating
Commercial Pilot License
AiTP License

and probably a Flight Instructor Certificate/Instrument/Multi-Engine

The Licensing still doesn't qualify you. One simply has met the steps towards acquiring the required experience.

Right now you're looking at 3000 hours of experience to even get considered. That's the hard part. An aspiring civilian pilot can expect to fly for up to five years making between $7-$14 an hour with no benefits. That may or may not get you an interview.

 

That sounds like a cut throat industry. Did you have to pay for all the school yourself or were you a military pilot? I fly in Microsoft Flight Simulator and 2 times out of ten I crash on landing. Crosswind puts the wing over and I skid down the runway. Any tips?

 

A lot of the time and expense is just getting the time (hours of flight time) in. I believe that some airlines have hour requirements for type ratings.

It costs less than 4k to get my private pilot license, but I will need to invest at least 6K to be a Instrument rated pilot (means I could fly in the clouds using only the instruments to tell me which way is up). Spend some more to get the commerical rating (means I can haul paying passengers). Spend more money for the multi-engine/high performance/jet/turbine rating.

You can go to flight schools and pay to get all the ratings you need. You will still be a relatively low time pilot who will probably start out hauling cargo or flying for a small airline. As hours and experiance build so does the paycheck. But it takes time.

The 4K I invested allows me to fly a Cessna 172, with 3 passengers, at around 130 mph, so long as I stay clear of clouds. To be able to fly a turboprop with 18 paying passengers is a whole different breed of cat.

As far as the unions go, I think they have outlived their usefulness since their agenda is not the one the members sign up for.

 

You have to be able to use your rudder to crab into the wind. After flying the real thing, I find the flight sim more difficult to do. Why? Because I cannot use the throttle and rudder as smoothly as I can in the real plane. Occasionally, I can put it down on the runway and in one piece in the sim. I do a much better job in the real one.

 

For your passengers sake I hope so. The rudder thing is tough with the keyboard. I'd get some pedals but I don't play enough. I play maybe twice a week. Sometimes i get ****** and mash all the keys at once and let it burn. That may be a sign I shouldn't fly...

 

KEYBOARD?

Christ on a Pogostick!

I never use less than a Sidewinder with a rotating stick...

If I can't have that, I wait.

 

Quite honestly guys, you haven't done anything to convince me that pilots are any more valuable or require any more intense/expensive training than any other professional.

Anyone working in the oil & gas industry has had to complete between 4 and 8 years of university education, the costs vary, but $10,000 is a bare minimum. After graduation, you can scrounge around for a long time till you get your foot in the door somewhere. I know guys that graduated when oil prices were in the tank and they work lumber yards now.

Then when you do manage to get in somewhere, you're a lackey for at least 5 years before you start to see any real money or benefits.

There are no unions to prop you up either, if you can't cut the mustard, you'll never see 5 years, but if you're good at what you do and work harder than the next guy, the sky's the limit.

That's how all professions work. Tradesmen have to put in long hours apprenticing before they see any cash too.

So on the cost/time period of training front, I'm sorry, but you don't get much sympathy from me.

As for the union argument, every profession is specialized. That's what being a professional is, you pick a narrow field of expertise and focus your energy on it. If there are 20 or 200 other guys out there willing to do your job for less money, then you have to ask yourself if your demands are realistic.

Again, I'll relate it to my industry. You say there are a ton of greenhorns out there, well same here, but guess what, every company still wants to hire the 15 year guy. Companies quickly realize that they can hire/fire 20 new guys, or pay a premium and have one reliable experienced guy. Great once you've got your time in and your in demand, not so great when you're young and green. The union effectively eliminates competition, it may be protecting your job, but it's also holding you back, and IMHO, holding back the airline industry.

Waxy