DPS injectors: The death knell???
#1
DPS injectors: The death knell???
So I had an issue with an injector during my cam swap. While I was installing my pump and lines, I stripped out an injector body...
While being an annoyance, that isnt the point of this thread, the stripped threads have nothing to do with the function of the injector... However, I had to pull apart the injector to swap bodies with all the "working" parts...
First thing I noticed after pulling the injector out, was the carbon build-up on the tip, and its corresponding pattern... It wasnt even around the orifice... Now at first I thought that it might be because of the swirl in the Pre-chamber, but as I thought about it, I dont think with all the turbulance in the chamber, that carbon could build like that in that spot, it has to be because of spray pattern... (I wont know until I test them on a pop tester)... So I pulled the injector apart. I was suprised to see what the pintle looked like... It was almost like it was burned, or got "hot"... Only explaination I can come up with, other than it being screwed to begin with, was 6.5* of timing and 150cc's or fuel, and the cylinder pressure pushing the combustion back into the injector, because of too low of a pop pressure......dunno... However, Im pretty sure that the stg 1 injectors ken sold, were not a precision product, and that the pintles were probably not cut properly... Probably most likely on a bench grinder. As a machinist, I know that this can lead to a non-perpendicular tip, and probably why Kens injectors are so hit and miss... I like the idea of the DPS injectors, because it does make sense, however, A) the pump is going to get whatever amount of fuel it pumps past the injector no matter what, and B) if you dont have the right machining practices, its going to result in poor performance... I think that DPS injectors could be done the right way, and I just might experiment with that here... Well see.
Anyway... Here is some pics...
While being an annoyance, that isnt the point of this thread, the stripped threads have nothing to do with the function of the injector... However, I had to pull apart the injector to swap bodies with all the "working" parts...
First thing I noticed after pulling the injector out, was the carbon build-up on the tip, and its corresponding pattern... It wasnt even around the orifice... Now at first I thought that it might be because of the swirl in the Pre-chamber, but as I thought about it, I dont think with all the turbulance in the chamber, that carbon could build like that in that spot, it has to be because of spray pattern... (I wont know until I test them on a pop tester)... So I pulled the injector apart. I was suprised to see what the pintle looked like... It was almost like it was burned, or got "hot"... Only explaination I can come up with, other than it being screwed to begin with, was 6.5* of timing and 150cc's or fuel, and the cylinder pressure pushing the combustion back into the injector, because of too low of a pop pressure......dunno... However, Im pretty sure that the stg 1 injectors ken sold, were not a precision product, and that the pintles were probably not cut properly... Probably most likely on a bench grinder. As a machinist, I know that this can lead to a non-perpendicular tip, and probably why Kens injectors are so hit and miss... I like the idea of the DPS injectors, because it does make sense, however, A) the pump is going to get whatever amount of fuel it pumps past the injector no matter what, and B) if you dont have the right machining practices, its going to result in poor performance... I think that DPS injectors could be done the right way, and I just might experiment with that here... Well see.
Anyway... Here is some pics...
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#11
Ya those refs are horrible. Lol.
A friend of mine actually talked to an injection shop guy who swears that G codes are the best. Especially when run with an IDI turbo pump. But I still believe that there is power to be had with modded injectors, especially at the power levels both Racin and NMB2 are at.
A friend of mine actually talked to an injection shop guy who swears that G codes are the best. Especially when run with an IDI turbo pump. But I still believe that there is power to be had with modded injectors, especially at the power levels both Racin and NMB2 are at.
#12
#13
This is how I feel about injectors. Simply, the only way you are going to improve any code injector, is to open the orifice to flow more fuel, or cut the pintle out of the way. The stroke, without seriously modding things, is constant depending on shim stack and volume the pump is putting out at any given time. Now with that being said, you simply dont need to increase the flow because the fuel is getting through anyway, even with stock pintles... When we start breaking input shafts because the pump is flowing beyond what the injector will in the same amount of time, then its time to open up the orifice/cut the pintle, until then, it makes no difference, except for atomization, which is moot in an IDI anyway. Atomization for combustion, the part that makes the engine run happens post pre-chamber, and all atomization does within the pre-chamber, is either light the mix faster (more atomization) or slower (less atomization), both of which can be controlled by timing the pump accordingly. There is no proof that atomization from the injector itself does anything, there is a lot of people that say "YA, its SO much better" but I have a feeling that the plecebo effect is alive and well... There is no dyno numbers that prove anything, but I do see a lot of similar setups with different injectors making all about the same power... If you think about it, the IDI engine was developed because of this reason, low injection pressures and un-precise spray patterns could be used effectively... Thats why atomization makes such little difference...
XLT, my next set of injectors will be just as you say, a new set of G-codes... Maybe a set of BB's... Either way, they will get a decent pop, and thats it...
XLT, my next set of injectors will be just as you say, a new set of G-codes... Maybe a set of BB's... Either way, they will get a decent pop, and thats it...
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#15
Specifically because it is DI. They have to have a perfect spray pattern for complete combustion, not only that, but injector depth has to be set according to the advance, and all sorts of little tweaks... We all know DI is superior, but its all a give and take, you have much more precise fuel events to deal with...