New 2007 6.0L F-250 FX4 Owner needs advice
Post Fiend
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,127
Likes: 6
Electric Shock / Arc Hazard from FICM 50V and above
This is a presentation about why 50 Volts is the break point for the human body / skin as a natural protection system:
Swamps Diesel's 57 Volt FICM conveniently places it squarely in the electrocution hazard territory.
If there is wet ground, water, salt, and so on.. a even bigger risk.
Do the numbers.
http://www.ieci.org/uploads/SafetyPr...on12.15.06.pdf
Ohm’s Law for Electric current (amps),
voltage and Body Resistance
• The typical body has a contact resistance of
500 ohms at the point of contact with the
electrical source.
• The body has an internal resistance of
approximately 100 ohms.
• There is another point of contact to ground
of maybe 5000 ohms.
– 120v / (500Ω + 100Ω + 5000Ω) = 21mA
– 50v / (500Ω + 100Ω + 5000Ω) = 8.9 mA
• It is around 10 mA that the “cannot let go”
level is reached. Once lock up occurs,
exposure time is increased and the
possibility of electrocution may occur.
voltage and Body Resistance
• The typical body has a contact resistance of
500 ohms at the point of contact with the
electrical source.
• The body has an internal resistance of
approximately 100 ohms.
• There is another point of contact to ground
of maybe 5000 ohms.
– 120v / (500Ω + 100Ω + 5000Ω) = 21mA
– 50v / (500Ω + 100Ω + 5000Ω) = 8.9 mA
• It is around 10 mA that the “cannot let go”
level is reached. Once lock up occurs,
exposure time is increased and the
possibility of electrocution may occur.
Swamps Diesel's 57 Volt FICM conveniently places it squarely in the electrocution hazard territory.
If there is wet ground, water, salt, and so on.. a even bigger risk.
Do the numbers.
http://www.ieci.org/uploads/SafetyPr...on12.15.06.pdf
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 15,368
Likes: 121
From: Stuttgart, Ar
Tex,
Unconfirmed rumors is that the 57V mod FICM product has been pulled off the market by Swamps....
You can get into trouble messing around with programming too --- like the Ford induction heating deal ---- but that beats the danger of hardware mods like the 57v deal.
Unconfirmed rumors is that the 57V mod FICM product has been pulled off the market by Swamps....
You can get into trouble messing around with programming too --- like the Ford induction heating deal ---- but that beats the danger of hardware mods like the 57v deal.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,127
Likes: 6
Post Fiend
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,127
Likes: 6
Hot FICM builders warn of electrocution hazard
Please verify and if necessary, I will stand corrected.
But even 50V is to high.
Electrocution hazard.
A huge fight at SAE resulted in the 42v standard. Ford/International pushed it to 45v for the FICM --- but that is one single system with a modest power output.
Go back and look at the SAE debates on voltage... and compromises needed for basic safety.
Here is the electrocution hazard warning in the "manual" for building a "Hot" FICM:
Please note this is dangerous to bring the FICM output voltage into the cab. The voltage and current
capabilities of the FICM are certainly enough to kill someone. Make sure you properly build your cable
with enough insulation and heat shrink to avoid accidently shorting (FICM damage) or electrocution
(bodily damage). Also, I highly recommend installing a small fuse inline, just in case (in the mA range).
capabilities of the FICM are certainly enough to kill someone. Make sure you properly build your cable
with enough insulation and heat shrink to avoid accidently shorting (FICM damage) or electrocution
(bodily damage). Also, I highly recommend installing a small fuse inline, just in case (in the mA range).
http://www.thedieselgarage.com/Downloads/FICM.pdf
What about the danger of electrocution when working under the hood?
A bit of water splashed around, ground wet?
Some road salt?
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 42,085
Likes: 6
From: Lakewood, Ca.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,127
Likes: 6
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 15,368
Likes: 121
From: Stuttgart, Ar
Please verify and if necessary, I will stand corrected.
But even 50V is to high.
Electrocution hazard.
A huge fight at SAE resulted in the 42v standard. Ford/International pushed it to 45v for the FICM --- but that is one single system with a modest power output.
Go back and look at the SAE debates on voltage... and compromises needed for basic safety.
But even 50V is to high.
Electrocution hazard.
A huge fight at SAE resulted in the 42v standard. Ford/International pushed it to 45v for the FICM --- but that is one single system with a modest power output.
Go back and look at the SAE debates on voltage... and compromises needed for basic safety.
I guess all things being relative I don't consider 50V DC to be much of an electrocution hazard even though it only takes approx. one tenth of an amp to kill someone. I guess working around 4120 for 10 years did that to me or maybe it's that I have a serious respect and I've been trained how to deal with it.
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 15,368
Likes: 121
From: Stuttgart, Ar
Please reference the following thread Post#196: Swamps Diesel Hot FICM Tests - Page 5 - TheDieselGarage.com
Note that Swamps may have changed since then but this was current at the time.
Note that Swamps may have changed since then but this was current at the time.
FTE Stories
Ford Trucks for Ford Truck Enthusiasts
10 Things Every Truck Owner NEEDS (2026 Edition)
Michael S. Palmer
Rezvani's Latest Post-Apocalytic Monster Is a Ford F-150 Raptor Underneath
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Most Expensive Ford Trucks Ever Sold on Bring a Trailer
Joe Kucinski
2027 Ford Super Duty Buyer's Guide (Every Model, Engine, & Package)
Brett Foote
Top 10 Ford Truck Tragedies
Joe Kucinski
AEV FXL Super Duty - the Super Duty Raptor Ford Doesn't Make
Brett Foote
Lobo Vs Lobo: Proof the F-150 Lobo Should Be Even Lower!
Michael S. Palmer
Ford's 2001 Explorer Sportsman Concept Looks For a New Home
Verdad Gallardo
10 Best Ford Truck Engines We Miss the Most!
Joe Kucinski
Post Fiend
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,127
Likes: 6
Please reference the following thread Post#196: Swamps Diesel Hot FICM Tests - Page 5 - TheDieselGarage.com
Note that Swamps may have changed since then but this was current at the time.
Note that Swamps may have changed since then but this was current at the time.
Am not sure, but think they upped it for a while, then pulled it from the market --- I have to wade through 40 pages of threads to find the documentation!
Here is a post that is... sensible:
Boosting the 48V DC converter output to 57V - 58V long term seems risky at best not only from exceeding the capacitor rated voltage but also from the standpoint of the power FETS drain-source voltage used in the DC converter and in the injector driver circuits on the CPU board. Exceeding drain-source break down voltage of 55V, with 58V volts would stress these parts also. The FETS are Infineon OptiMOS power FETS # IPB80N06S2L-05 and SPD30N06S2L-13 respectively.
It is interesting to note how few people recognize the difference between sourcing components (vs. what the catalog says and delivers).
Auto grade components are totally a world onto themselves ---- and much of the details are only known to a handful of purchasing managers and key account managers at the OEMs.
Most of the "off the shelf" parts that have identical specs are actually quite different than the specifically auto grade components.
There is incredible naivety in people believing the spec sheets they read.
Every manufacturer I know in the business have multiple sets of specs -- there is the published spec sheet, for the propaganda department.
Then there are the hidden "real" specs for customers who know the difference and is willing to pay the premium for it.
On the outside, the products would look identical, and often, even have the same markings. But on the inside, tons of trade secrets.
Look at one example for which there is public information:
Capacitors - passive components, should be easy to make?
Old technology... right?
Well, not quite.
A few makers (mostly Japanese) had cornered the market on certain electrolyte capacitors.
They had their trade secret formula stolen, and cloned.
News & Analysis
FAULTS & FAILURES
Leaking Capacitors Muck up Motherboards
Finger-pointing and fury as manufacturers try to dodge blame
It has all the elements of a good thriller: a stolen secret formula, bungled corporate espionage, untraceable goods, and lone wolves saving the little guy from the misdeeds of multinational corporations. In this case, a mistake in the stolen formulation of the electrolyte in a capacitor has wrecked hundreds of PCs and may wreck still more in what is an industrywide problem.
Leaking Capacitors Muck up Motherboards
Finger-pointing and fury as manufacturers try to dodge blame
It has all the elements of a good thriller: a stolen secret formula, bungled corporate espionage, untraceable goods, and lone wolves saving the little guy from the misdeeds of multinational corporations. In this case, a mistake in the stolen formulation of the electrolyte in a capacitor has wrecked hundreds of PCs and may wreck still more in what is an industrywide problem.
Capacitor plague - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Only problem. The theft was incomplete, and left out critical ingredients.
The clone capacitors all failed --- costing major firms a fortune to replace stuff in the field.
You can bet that there is a similar set of trade secrets behind most components, and also in their assembly, design, etc.
The OEMs that know what they are doing are not about to give away the knowhow.
If it was so easy to clone the FICM, why are there not hundreds of brand new chinese clone units up for sale on eBay?
Post Fiend
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,127
Likes: 6
Swamps quietly discontinued the 57V FICM documented
Confirmed that Swamps offered it here:
I’ve tested several FICMs, repaired solder joints, and never did achieve the results I wanted. So I called Swamps and ordered a HOT FICM. Installed it, and began testing on the truck. Here’s what I found.
Idling – 13.2 volts in – 57.0 volts out (~48 volts is stock)
Idling – 13.2 volts in – 57.0 volts out (~48 volts is stock)
Note the post ended with this:
Should one decide the difference isn’t for you, place the Hot FICM in the Forum classifieds, I bet it won’t last a week!
That might be amended to read "your truck wouldn't last 2 weeks also!
TheDieselGarage.com - View Single Post - Swamps Diesel Hot FICM Tests
Here is a post that referenced the 58V Swamps FICM:
I talked to Johnathan at swamp's this morning. He cleared up my question's about water/coolant disclaimer. When I asked him about what is the diffrence about the 48v vs the 58v, he stated about the 58v making the injectors respond faster as already mentioned in this thread. He also recommened the 48v if I was towing heavy ( 10k and up). When I go to place my order next monday I'm gonna ask him why don't they recommend the 58v for towing 10k.
A subsequent post show Swamps quietly discontinued the 58V FICM:
When I called this morning, I talked to a regular sales employee. I asked him about towing heavy and he wasn't too clear on the answer, but he mentioned that it has something to do with heat issues of the ficm. So when I told him I was ready to place an order, he told me that at the moment they weren't taking anymore orders until further notice. He wants me to call back tomarrow and talk to Johnathan to find out if I can order a 48v. He said something about being back logged.
Did they remove the HOT FICM's from their website? I just looked and couldnt find them?
TheDieselGarage.com - View Single Post - Swamps Diesel Hot FICM Tests
Wonder how many 6.0s did this "hot FICM" part destroy in its brief time on the market.
Using paying customers to do Research and Development is what this is.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,127
Likes: 6
As an aside. Safety and Mission critical electronics and software for autos is right up there in the hierarchy of difficult to master technologies in electronics.
In many ways, more difficult to do than Aerospace grade stuff, because the budgets are far more limited, the lifespans longer, the maintenance less rigorous, and there are far more units out there in the field --- making for a statistically insignificant issue to become big by the sheer numbers.
I have enormous respect for the expertise and knowhow that goes into making this stuff well --- which is clearly not hobbyist knowledge.
In many ways, more difficult to do than Aerospace grade stuff, because the budgets are far more limited, the lifespans longer, the maintenance less rigorous, and there are far more units out there in the field --- making for a statistically insignificant issue to become big by the sheer numbers.
I have enormous respect for the expertise and knowhow that goes into making this stuff well --- which is clearly not hobbyist knowledge.
Mountain Pass
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 225
Likes: 4
From: ILL relocated to Ozarks
gearloose1,
Despite the many inaccurate technical claims you have made through out this post, it is unfortunate there maybe an element of which is accurate. Personally I tend to want to error on the conservative side. But then again, lets look at the original unmodified FICM design (remember earlier you posted a picture of it). YEP… that’s right, the ORIGINAL design went up in smoke or at least presumably that is what the poster of the original photo would lead one to believe. So like all the other truck enthusiasts with all their unsafe modifications they have purchased or made (some which violate air pollution laws), why not make a modification in the hopes that it is no worse then the original design (that will sooner or later go up in smoke) but maybe it just might be an improvement? You criticize everyone and any company that goes down “The Road Less Traveled”, who attempts to improve on their vehicle and yet in your own claims you have nothing of substance to contribute or even back up the claims with substantive technical facts. Take into consideration that a replacement original/unmodified FICM from a dealer with all the known problems will cost you any where from $500 - $1000 just for the replacement unit only to still have all the original design problems. The manufactures of the power FETS and capacitors used in the original design recommend that the nominal operating voltage should be less then 80% of the respective components rated voltage. Note that 48V is not 80% of the capacitors 50V rating and it is not 80% of the FETS 55V rating. So if we follow the component manufacture recommendations the original designed includes components which are lacking to begin with! This does not even take into consideration the transients (can be 120V and higher) on the 12V due to alternator load dumps, electric motors used for i.e. starter, snow plow, winches, transfer case, wiper, heater blower or even high power lighting systems, etc. This is not to mentioning the four 1000ufd 35V caps which can also be exposed to the previous mentioned transients. Ford has quit a lengthy spec published on just such transients and how the electronic modules must meet that spec ( Ford on EMC ). I would ask whether the manufacture of the FICM ever saw that spec considering the low voltage parts in their original design. It seems that some enthusiasts want to only improve on the original design by using higher voltage components, this is a good thing, to improve on the original low voltage components.
Your posting on the technical issues demonstrate you are not an EE, have not looked into any issues involved, you appear not to contribute on the technical side of this topic but instead seem to take pleasure in mis-stating snippets from what everyone else has said and/or posted. Unless you have fully reversed engineered the efforts of Swamps on upgrading the FICM, who are you to put down thier product?
So really what is your angle or vested interest in this posting? Do you just want to get attention, start an argument or maybe is it a little bit narcissistic?
Yes,if you can't tell, I am sitting on the fence on this issue.
Despite the many inaccurate technical claims you have made through out this post, it is unfortunate there maybe an element of which is accurate. Personally I tend to want to error on the conservative side. But then again, lets look at the original unmodified FICM design (remember earlier you posted a picture of it). YEP… that’s right, the ORIGINAL design went up in smoke or at least presumably that is what the poster of the original photo would lead one to believe. So like all the other truck enthusiasts with all their unsafe modifications they have purchased or made (some which violate air pollution laws), why not make a modification in the hopes that it is no worse then the original design (that will sooner or later go up in smoke) but maybe it just might be an improvement? You criticize everyone and any company that goes down “The Road Less Traveled”, who attempts to improve on their vehicle and yet in your own claims you have nothing of substance to contribute or even back up the claims with substantive technical facts. Take into consideration that a replacement original/unmodified FICM from a dealer with all the known problems will cost you any where from $500 - $1000 just for the replacement unit only to still have all the original design problems. The manufactures of the power FETS and capacitors used in the original design recommend that the nominal operating voltage should be less then 80% of the respective components rated voltage. Note that 48V is not 80% of the capacitors 50V rating and it is not 80% of the FETS 55V rating. So if we follow the component manufacture recommendations the original designed includes components which are lacking to begin with! This does not even take into consideration the transients (can be 120V and higher) on the 12V due to alternator load dumps, electric motors used for i.e. starter, snow plow, winches, transfer case, wiper, heater blower or even high power lighting systems, etc. This is not to mentioning the four 1000ufd 35V caps which can also be exposed to the previous mentioned transients. Ford has quit a lengthy spec published on just such transients and how the electronic modules must meet that spec ( Ford on EMC ). I would ask whether the manufacture of the FICM ever saw that spec considering the low voltage parts in their original design. It seems that some enthusiasts want to only improve on the original design by using higher voltage components, this is a good thing, to improve on the original low voltage components.
Your posting on the technical issues demonstrate you are not an EE, have not looked into any issues involved, you appear not to contribute on the technical side of this topic but instead seem to take pleasure in mis-stating snippets from what everyone else has said and/or posted. Unless you have fully reversed engineered the efforts of Swamps on upgrading the FICM, who are you to put down thier product?
So really what is your angle or vested interest in this posting? Do you just want to get attention, start an argument or maybe is it a little bit narcissistic?
Yes,if you can't tell, I am sitting on the fence on this issue.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,127
Likes: 6
gearloose1,
Despite the many inaccurate technical claims you have made through out this post, it is unfortunate there maybe an element of which is accurate.
You criticize everyone and any company that goes down “The Road Less Traveled”, who attempts to improve on their vehicle and yet in your own claims you have nothing of substance to contribute or even back up the claims with substantive technical facts.
Your posting on the technical issues demonstrate you are not an EE, have not looked into any issues involved, you appear not to contribute on the technical side of this topic but instead seem to take pleasure in mis-stating snippets from what everyone else has said and/or posted. Unless you have fully reversed engineered the efforts of Swamps on upgrading the FICM, who are you to put down thier product?
So really what is your angle or vested interest in this posting? Do you just want to get attention, start an argument or maybe is it a little bit narcissistic?
Despite the many inaccurate technical claims you have made through out this post, it is unfortunate there maybe an element of which is accurate.
You criticize everyone and any company that goes down “The Road Less Traveled”, who attempts to improve on their vehicle and yet in your own claims you have nothing of substance to contribute or even back up the claims with substantive technical facts.
Your posting on the technical issues demonstrate you are not an EE, have not looked into any issues involved, you appear not to contribute on the technical side of this topic but instead seem to take pleasure in mis-stating snippets from what everyone else has said and/or posted. Unless you have fully reversed engineered the efforts of Swamps on upgrading the FICM, who are you to put down thier product?
So really what is your angle or vested interest in this posting? Do you just want to get attention, start an argument or maybe is it a little bit narcissistic?
The above says everything that need to be said about you.
I further note:
In a previous thread, I had to go out of the way to ensure that no one used the advice you gave --- which would have caused severe damage to electronics had your advice been followed.
This poster has repeatedly posted false and misleading information.
My specific recommendation is "dielectric thermal compound".
The poster refers to a range of thermal compounds that are specifically conductive.
The poster have previously advised using Oxy-Gard on Ford Truck Connectors and contacts, which WILL SHORT CIRCUIT ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS IF USED.
THERE IS NOW A WARNING MESSAGE ABOUT NEVER USING OXY-GARD AS SUGGESTED BY THIS POSTER ON MY "ELECTRICAL BUG FIX" LINK BELOW.
BEWARE
My specific recommendation is "dielectric thermal compound".
The poster refers to a range of thermal compounds that are specifically conductive.
The poster have previously advised using Oxy-Gard on Ford Truck Connectors and contacts, which WILL SHORT CIRCUIT ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS IF USED.
THERE IS NOW A WARNING MESSAGE ABOUT NEVER USING OXY-GARD AS SUGGESTED BY THIS POSTER ON MY "ELECTRICAL BUG FIX" LINK BELOW.
BEWARE
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/9...ml#post8574775
Post Fiend
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,127
Likes: 6
Let me see what I said about that...
Point of information. I am not a EE by academic credentials.
If your goal is a more reliable and better performing FICM, the best bet may be to go with a proven FICM with factory components that have been burned in good for 3 or more months.
All things equal, if it works past 3 months, and if there is not a mechanical failure (solder being the biggest issue), it is liable to work for 5 years or longer until it reach the MTBF point and beyond.
Upgrading components is very tricky, as you are reliant on a supply chain for components that generally do not handle automobile grade components --- they are sold directly to OEMs in large lots.
Very little (if any) end up in the "distribution" business of components.
So the mods with bigger capacitors, active components, etc. have to be done with off the shelf industrial / commercial or, gasp, consumer grade components.
These components may look identical, have the identical specs but are not necessarily subject to the rigorous quality control and testing of the automobile grade stuff.
Furthermore, being sold through distribution, there is a major issue of whether the parts are bona fide real, counterfeit, remarked, salvaged, or whatever.
Now, having said all this, if you can find truly good quality components in small quantities, the next issue becomes what to do with it.
A tried and true strategy is to simply use beefier components but at a lower rating --- to get more reliability.
But that is not what Swamps is doing --- they are uprating components, then dialing up voltage / current / power with little or no consideration to the other parts of the system.
That not only does not add reliability, but pushes the subsystem into unknown territory where something else, somewhere is gong to break --- with unknown and possibly catastrophic consequences.
In order to prevent this, the entire system would have to be virtually redesignd with the new "uprated" specs in mind, and testing and validation redone from scratch.
I see zero evidence that Swamps diesel have the technical capacity or the finances to essentially design and bring to market a new FICM from scratch.
If they are really so good, let them share their testing and validation data with their potential customers.
My bet: whatever testing and validation they did could not have exceeded a handful of units and very few hours --- unlikely over a few hundred in the unit with the most hours --- before they sold it "at retail".
Good luck.... if you want to be their alpha test site.
Think real hard about this thing called cascading failures...
If your goal is a more reliable and better performing FICM, the best bet may be to go with a proven FICM with factory components that have been burned in good for 3 or more months.
All things equal, if it works past 3 months, and if there is not a mechanical failure (solder being the biggest issue), it is liable to work for 5 years or longer until it reach the MTBF point and beyond.
Upgrading components is very tricky, as you are reliant on a supply chain for components that generally do not handle automobile grade components --- they are sold directly to OEMs in large lots.
Very little (if any) end up in the "distribution" business of components.
So the mods with bigger capacitors, active components, etc. have to be done with off the shelf industrial / commercial or, gasp, consumer grade components.
These components may look identical, have the identical specs but are not necessarily subject to the rigorous quality control and testing of the automobile grade stuff.
Furthermore, being sold through distribution, there is a major issue of whether the parts are bona fide real, counterfeit, remarked, salvaged, or whatever.
Now, having said all this, if you can find truly good quality components in small quantities, the next issue becomes what to do with it.
A tried and true strategy is to simply use beefier components but at a lower rating --- to get more reliability.
But that is not what Swamps is doing --- they are uprating components, then dialing up voltage / current / power with little or no consideration to the other parts of the system.
That not only does not add reliability, but pushes the subsystem into unknown territory where something else, somewhere is gong to break --- with unknown and possibly catastrophic consequences.
In order to prevent this, the entire system would have to be virtually redesignd with the new "uprated" specs in mind, and testing and validation redone from scratch.
I see zero evidence that Swamps diesel have the technical capacity or the finances to essentially design and bring to market a new FICM from scratch.
If they are really so good, let them share their testing and validation data with their potential customers.
My bet: whatever testing and validation they did could not have exceeded a handful of units and very few hours --- unlikely over a few hundred in the unit with the most hours --- before they sold it "at retail".
Good luck.... if you want to be their alpha test site.
Think real hard about this thing called cascading failures...
On active components, substituting "higher voltage" components is not a simple exercise.
Basic things like checking for their idle current (which usually is not materially higher, but gotta check) and also verification that operating it at a lower voltage still puts them within the acceptable operating range.
Then the thermal design have to be rechecked to ensure that the new part do not materially alter the TDP --- this is especially the case in a module that is already stressed beyond reasonable limits.
Right now, the ongoing research I have going is asking the following questions:
A) why are the solder joints failing? Is it just a few critically stressed ones, or everywhere.
B) what is the contributing role of heat / shock / vibration to early failure?
Should the FICM not be just relocated? Cooled?
Once these issues are addressed, then additional mods I would consider are:
- Assuming a top rated supplier of real automobile grade components can be found, very selective mods of the design once the actual weak points are identified.
The design will have to be modified as an entire subsystem, right from the power input wiring to the injectors.
You don't get rid of weak points --- you just move it to a different place in the system.
At this moment, I believe that hardware mods beyond the reliability ones are not a good deployment of money ---- more performance gains can be had elsewhere.
Reliability gain mods, absolutely.
This may be had by resoldering the critical joints with silver (space grade) solder.