Advice on injectors and hpop
 

Well I had some fuel gel up on me the other day, so when I was changing the fuel filter I noticed my fuel was really dark and looked like it had oil in it. So I'm guessing I've got an injector o-ring leaking even though they were just done last December by the previous owner. So my question is, the truck has 226000 on it and I know for sure they are the oem injectors. Is it worth putting injectors with 226000 miles back in? If I'm replacing should I just go with another set of stock injectors or should I upgrade to bigger injectors? I'm actually pretty happy with the power I have now but would maybe like it to pull just a little better. I pull 10-12000 pounds pretty regular from April to October and then through the winter I pull my dump trailer with a load of firewood regularly.

I would assume I'd see an increase in performance just from a new set of injectors compared to ones with this many miles on them.

The other thing I'm debating is which hpop to get, I'm between a Bosch from diesel o-rings or one from CNC fabrication. I usually always try to stay as close to or oem as possible but have heard good things about cnc. The price is basically the same.

Current modifications are in my signature, let me know what you all think. Oh and this is for the late 99 not the excursion.

The OEM HPOP seldom goes bad. It can, and does, but seldom.

Like Dan said, you should verify you've got an issue with the HPOP before spending money on a new one. A working stock HPOP can handle slightly bigger injectors, so unless you're planning for big power in the future, no need to change it.

Get Torque Pro, and make runs to check it's performance. If it's low, it could very well be a poorly working IPR giving it bad instructions. There are plenty of threads where folks compare IPR%, ICP, and FIPW for you to see whether your HPO system is up to snuff.

And unless your injectors leak or look like this poor fella's Crusty Injectors, a little cleaning and new o-rings should be fine. Just be sure your fuel system is clean.

If you're thinking of upgrading, there's a lot to think about and you really should plan it out, instead of hopscotching along the way. So for now, keep it stock and running well, get it to 100% while stock, and that way you can really see where you need to go when upgrading. :-X22

The hpop issue I am having is the oil is draining back from the reservoir. When I've checked it, it is about 2-3 inches below the port in top where you check it.

My excursion since posting this I believe we have diagnosed a bad hpop. It won't make over 950 icp and has the IPR maxed out to do that. Going research a little more on this before ordering one. We're using a snap on Modis scanner to monitor and check this stuff.

As for the injectors, I'm not sure which route I am going to go yet. Seems like after 226000 miles the wear parts like nozzles and the plunger etc would be wore and possibly affecting performance by now. But the truck does seem to run pretty good overall so maybe not. Just hate to do all the work to pull and reseal just to do it again in 75000 miles. Kinda like to do stuff once.

You'll just have to replace them somewhere between 275,000 and 350,000 miles. 165 CC/ 80% single shots rock...

New HPOP should also yield better MPG (marginally if you can keep your foot off the skinny pedal)

Adrenaline HPOP is awesome.


Agreed.

I had the opportunity to rid in Mecdac's Ex recently and it hauls ass, there is no doubt about that. Another no doubt situation is the Adrenaline HPOP. Although, I am partial to CNC because I have dealt with Corey (CNC owner) on more than a few occasions and frankly I would send my business to him before Diesel Site. That is only personal preference though, and both HPOP's will get the job done well beyond your expectations.

The Terminator T500 has been popular over the years because it was a great value for a great performing pump. Although, there seem to have been some issues as of late that I have not seen any resolution for. The history of the pump speaks for itself though.

The fellas are right too, the OEM HPOP is capable of a lot, but if you have a fault, you should consider your options carefully.

My personal thoughts....

Not that changing injectors is a hard or super time-consuming job, but with 226K on stock injectors and adequate funds, consider just replacing them if you plan on keeping the vehicle. They're going to need to be replaced soon anyway regardless if you throw new o-rings on them ($10-$12 bucks a hole wasted) right now because you'll not be able to reuse them later for any reason.

Bad injector o rings will also bleed off ICP. See what the ICP is after the new injectors. Or you can test for leaks by putting air pressure to the HPOP hose fitting on the head, listen for leaks. Often called a Cody test on this forum, search for that. Yeah, that ^^ guy.

Will bad injector o-rings cause the hpop reservoir to leak down though? I think the hpop is working fine per my tests with wide open throttle runs and hooking my 9000 pound horse trailer to it and watching icp. It makes 2900ish icp with leaking injector o rings. That tells me it's probably working ok. But I think it's leaking down causing the recent hard starts I'm experiencing. Is that check valve replaceable?

No. This will only reduce operating ICP, give you smoke and a black fuel filter.The check valve is replaceable, but I don't think it can cause a draining reservoir. In the below image, I believe the check valve is labeled the Short Circuit Device, and it's just inside the front of the driver's side head, below the valve cover. But no matter what, the top of the standpipe inside the HPOP reservoir should be the lowest level in the HPOP. If it's draining, then maybe it's the base of the standpipe that's leaking internally, or the reservoir gasket. I don't know if the standpipe can be removed without removing the reservoir itself, but if it's sealed by the HPOP reservoir gasket between the HPOP reservoir and the engine cover, then you'll have to remove the HPOP and the reservoir to fix that.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...51b9be2a63.jpg

So based on that info and diagram, replacing my hpop isn't going to fix the reservoir draining down anyway.

I don't know anything about the internals of an HPOP. The gear drive goes through that big hole in the front of the block into a space in the front cover, so I suppose there could be a path for the reservoir to drain through the HPOP into the engine cover and straight down into the oil pan, but someone else would have to chime in for specifics. Or even whether there's enough clearance for a such a leak to even be possible overnight.

Negative!

The upper square O rings will allow the hpop reservoir to drain if they’re bad. The upper rings usually fail near the gap in the steel ring.

Ok, I think where I'm at is I'm going to start by addressing the injector o-ring issue and then decide what to do on the hpop. I'm pretty sure I'm going to,replace the injectors versus just doing o-rings because I just can't see putting a set of high mileage injectors back in. With that decision where should I get injectors from. I keep reading about 160/80 injectors etc. should I be looking at bigger injectors since I pull regularly? Currently our fifth wheel weighs in about 10000 pounds but will probably upgrade before I get rid of this truck into a unit weighing 12-13k loaded. Looking for insight before I drop the coin. I will at some point probably get a hydra and s&b intake and of coarse I already have the 38r turbo with 4 inch exhaust.

This is only my opinion, so take it for what it is worth.

My truck runs great on OEM AD injectors, so much so that when I replace mine I will seriously consider stock replacements.

If I choose to upgrade, I will only purchase NEW 160/80 injectors, probably from PIS. That is only because of the research I have done and the decisions I have made in my mind.

A lot of fellas go with remanned or even recently rebuild their own. I don't think I trust myself enough to rebuild them, and have seen too many stories about remanned needing to be sent back. I am willing to spend the extra money to get new and let it be. We plan to use the truck for RV'ing full time/a lot of the time in the future and I do not want to second guess my decision while diagnosing an injector failure on the side of the road somewhere.

New injectors will/can fail too, but much less of a chance.

I will not go any bigger than 160/80 because that suits the goals for my truck as a tow pig. The 160/80 and KC38R should get me near 400 HP and equivalent torque, which is plenty enough to get what I need done. This is one of the reasons why I laugh at the newer diesel owners that claim you need 500+ HP to tow a 5th wheel, but then when you bring up the fact that trucks have been towing 5th wheels and farm trailers for decades, they just say well it is more efficient. Perhaps, but I know that my bank account would not be nearly as efficient with a newer diesel. I have about $13K into my truck and it pulls the trailer up the Rocky Mountains just fine.

The decisions ahead of you are not easy because there are many choices. But, you need to be sure because injectors are a large investment and can be very time consuming.

to the OP....If I could wind the clock back to my injector purchase, I'd likely go 160/80 over the 160/30 I have. Not that I'm unhappy with the 30% nozzle, just that there are more gains in EGT reduction to be had with the 80% nozzle.

400Hp should be around 800ft/lb torque....plenty of both!

I guess it could, but it would have to pass through the HPOP to do so. It's a very similar comparison to a blown head gasket filling a cylinder with water. Even with cracked rings, my 300 I-6 didn't drain after a week just sitting there. I'm not trying to belittle your point, but for the life of me I can't imagine it draining enough to matter overnight.

We're getting a little deep into the weeds here, but the HPOP is a positive displacement pump, I think it's seven pistons. In order to generate pressures as high as 3500psi, I can't see how oil can easily leak through it when it's not moving, so while some may seep through when parked, and some can seep through a failed injector o-ring while parked, I doubt very much it would be noticeable overnight. And if those leaks were large enough to noticeably drain the reservoir overnight, then I doubt they would generate enough ICP to start the engine, much less reach 2900psi during operation. If you parked a brand new 7.3, then came back to it a year later, absolutely I would expect the HPOP to be low or even empty.

If I go to the bigger injectors will I need custom tuning immediately to be able to get the truck to run right? Sous, I will probably go with new injectors versus rebuilds anyhow. Do you have a link to the injectors you are suggesting? The only place I've considered remans from is rosewood diesel and that's just based off the good things I've read here about them.

Yes, if you change from OEM AD (split shot) to 160/anything you will need custom tuning. The 160/anything are single shot injectors which must have custom/different tuning than the OEM AD injectors.

http://www.performanceinjectionsystems.com/

The above link is to the PIS injectors. They do not have 160/80 listed on their site, but you can have them make anything you need with a phone call. I lean toward PIS only because of the reviews I have read on here in the past. I have traded PM's with some of the old hat members here that have a lot of knowledge on the injector choices and PIS has been among the best talked about. I know Unlimited Diesel has a lifetime warranty on their injectors and seem to have very few problems, but something in my head tells me PIS is the vendor for me.

I would invite you to look at the bigger names in injectors like PIS, Swamps, Alliant OEM, Unlimited, etc... and make an educated decision based on what your heart and mind tells you. The perfect solution for me may not be for you.

Take your time and digest all of the information. Then, when you have finally made a decision, sleep on it and see if you feel the same way the next day. This is a large investment (for me anyway) that includes not only the injectors, but associated parts and pieces too. You may find you need new cups, UVCH, sensors, pigtails, etc. These things add up quickly.

Keep us posted on what you decide and remember, we love to see pictures of other people working.

It will start and run, but the throttle is going to be SUPER touchy...Tugly can share on that.

A single failed O ring probably wouldn’t be noticeable, but I had the same problem. Reservoir would drain after a couple of days sitting, ICP would build enough to start with cold oil, but wouldn’t restart when warm, no oil in the fuel filter. I did the Cody test and immediately heard the gurgling under both VCs. 6 injectors had failed upper tings and 2 showed erosion which lined up with the gap in the steel rings.

I can’t explain how the oil leaked past the HPOP. It doesn’t make sense to me either.

Ok I had another hard/almost no start this morning. Just looking for an opinion. Could that be due to the orings being bad on the injectors? You can watch the icp sit at zero and as your cranking it finally starts to go up and build slowly. Then all of a sudden it takes off and builds the 500 plus and fires off. Runs normal and you have no more issues after that. If you stop somewhere and come out while it's still warm it fires off in about 2 seconds just like normal. I'm just wanting to rule out the hpop still. My plan is to do the injectors and then see what happens but I'm just curious on everyone else's opinion.

If your looking to upgrade or going for stock check out www.Americandieselinjection.com the guy has the best price and customer service you can ask for. I got a set of hybrids from them and I'm very happy

Freeland, MI huh? Well, I'm sure it's cold out there, but here's check you can do to see if the low level is the issue. Before you start it tomorrow morning, note the HPOP level and then fill it to proper level. Give it a minute for the oil to fill everywhere - which is probably the time it takes to button it up and warm your fingers - and then try starting it.

But something else. Have you checked your fuel filter yet? Bad injector o-rings leaking oil into the fuel side will generally show up as a blackened fuel filter after some time.

Yea I have oil up at the fuel filter, it was black when I changed it last Monday when my fuel gelled up. I did fill the reservoir last week when I found it was low and tried starting with no change at that time. When we do the injectors I'll be putting another new fuel filter and an oil change at that time again also.

when it's really cold out and I start my truck from sitting overnight it will run for 30 seconds and die and I have no low pressure oil on the gauge and I have to try it a few times before it will start and after it runs for about 40 to 60 seconds my oil pressure gauge will go up but if it's warm out it fires right up without a problem

Well I decided to go with a local shop call Diesel injection specialists I bought brand new Alliant injectors, stock everything. Only thing they told me that I wasn't aware of is he said number 8 injector is different than the other 7. Something about chatter or something is why that ones different. Any input on this. These guys have come highly recommended locally and I did buy some stuff from them for my 6.0 and was happy

You have to do what feels right in your heart and what works for your situation. Let us know how the install goes!

I will let you know, unfortunately probably no pics the guy who's helping me probably wouldn't tolerate the time for pics. He's kind of old school I guess is the best way to describe it. As far as my choice of injectors I'm satisfied with it. Looking around on line briefly 225.00 each for new ones seems pretty fair. I'm supporting a local shop, able to pick them up, he charged me no core charge just asked me to bring them back asap. I debated going over sized but I've never had an issue with any of my 7.3's pulling the way I want and I figure a new set of injectors alone I should see an improvement over the current ones with 226k on them. Hopefully I don't regret that decision. I'll keep,you guys up dated. Hopefully this corrects the disappearing oil. Thanks for everyone's help.

The AE won't be needed however if you fix your dead headed fuel supply, by adding a regulated return. This puts an end to the #8 injector being at he end of the fuel road, so with improved flow the AE is no longer needed to compensate. Again, it all comes back to your future thoughts on upgrades. The regulated return doesn't really give you much by itself, but as a foundation it lets your injectors do more if you ask more from them, i.e., get a chip, bigger turbo, exhaust, etc.

What I don't understand here is...what makes #8 any more 'at the end of the fuel road' than #1? Both sit at opposite ends of their respective head from the fuel feed and, actually, #1 has twice the run that #8 does (If I understand correctly).


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...93945b2aa8.png

See the firing order? 6-8 are sequential firing. #6 steals the fuel, and leaves #8 low while it replenishes. Fuel for #8 has to go past #6 and some of it is consumed by #6 firing.

At least that is what I understand ;)

Ok but if I do regulated return later the AE injector really won't change anything but for now it will compensate for the situation. Correct? Right now my funds are getting depleted especially with a chance I may need an hpop yet. On a good note I was able to fix my wife's excursion by replacing the ipr, which I had. So that saved me some $ to help compensate the expenses here.

How could you NOT KNOW THAT!

Something like this is what you guys are r fearing to for the regulated https://swampsdiesel.com/products/dr...ed-return-kit/

The AE injector wasn't OE at first, it only became an issue for those who complained about the noise or such. It was a TSB for awhile, if the customer complained. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot were replaced simply because it was a free service the dealer could perform at Ford's expense during routine service calls.

At some point it did become an OE installation, but I don't know when. I also don't know, as you mentioned, if it impacts performance if you were to get a chip later.