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-   -   5.4 randomly misfiring (https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1104362-5-4-randomly-misfiring.html)

F150Torqued 04-15-2018 03:09 PM

MODE $06 and Freeze Frame Data
 
OK, I'm back - with some comments on your data.

Let me first say - MODE $06 reports are very helpful - but often not exactly in the manner one would expect. Most do not appreciate that they are a "ONE & DONE" snapshot of some current live readings 'right NOW', and saved condition of OBDII monitoring test that runs all the time (multiple runs may not show a change at all on them). Consider this in context of upstream O2 sensors. Their voltage swings from ~.1v to .9v all the time. So ANY reading between that passes. STILL, it beats the hell out of crawling under the truck and measuring voltage and current in the O2 sensor circuits. Or trying to hold meter leads on the Tank Pressure sensor while the PCM does an EVAP drawdown on the gas tank to see if the Gas Cap is sealing - to mention a couple.

BUT, many expect something like "Replace _component X_ with a new one of part number "X" and perform a PCM relearn procedure". (Ain't gonna happen) We have take it all in a much broader context to derive its benefit. For example - ENGINE RUN TIME THIS DRIVE CYCLE? CATS AT OPERATING TEMP? HAVE ALL (OR WHICH) MONITORS HAVE COMPLETED [ NOTE: FF data PID 41=0 tells us NO monitor tests have completed ] - particularly significant here is Catalyst Monitor or EVAP monitor this drive cycle? (EVAP couldn't run anyway in your case [Note: FF data shows fuel level 90% and EVAP will not run unless it is < 75%] - EVAP state could be determined by Checking EVAPMODE PID, if that were a concern) .

The Mode $06 report confirms the DTC P0304 and flashing CEL you report. Tests Monitor MID$a1 Test IDs $80 and $82 confirm Misfire Monitor general data over both 200 rev and 1000 revs has exceed the catalyst damaging ratio of 7.37%. (Your CEL has Flashed at you!!!). //// Important aspects of that: When it is occurring, and for a period after, the PCM shuts down 4 injectors at a time, alternately, in an effort to regurgitate fresh air through the engine to clear unburned gas out of the catalytic converters. MAKES IT SHAKES LIKE HELL!!! Not a miss. It's trying to save your CATS ///. Also confirmed by "Calculated" Midbed Catalyst temperature being 997.6ļ C (MID:$a1 TID:$84) where factory catalyst damaging temp is 966. (( So try hard to avoid situations causing the flash until you get the miss fixed )).

_Fortunately_ you are lucky enough to have a DTC, and the Mode $06 confirms it is cyl 4. According to the Exponentially Weighted Moving Average, all the other cyls average ZERO over the last 10 drive cycles. So, since you were last over Snoqualmie pass, they haven't been missing TOO much. If you do not have the OBDII Theory of Operation Manual and would like to read up on some of these Monitor Tests, you can download a free copy for your Expy from here: http://www.fordservicecontent.com/fo...t/OBDSM804.pdf

Freeze Frame data is similar to the Mode $06 report - in that knowing lots about the surrounding environment can magnify its benefit. For example: I must assume 35ļ ambient realistic for your situs - at the time of last DTC, but you would know more about that than I. (If NOT, some simple sensor like that that becomes a parameter in PCM's calculation(s) for engine LOAD etc. could be something to monitor further).

I do NOTE in FF data: Again - Catalyst temp is VERY HIGH at the time of the last DTC - (presumably that P0304, which would be expected).

Another thing I NOTE in FF: Barometric pressure (from vehicle) = 15.084 psi. That is = (30.711 hg). [Sea level is 14.7 psi] Is your Expy under water - and I don't mean economically? But that is another thing that requires knowing more about environment than I. WA has elevations from sea level to 14,410, and it could have been a still, cool, humid day ???? IDK. But the PCM includes BARO(), and IAT, in its LOAD calculation which controls other things - such as - Cam Retard (effecting EGR diluting combustion intake with exhaust), Lambda and so forth which could 'aggrivate' misfires of the weakest link (Cyl #4 possibly).

FF data: PID 41=0 tells us that NONE of the PCM Monitor routines have completed during the current drive cycle - meaning the condition causing the DTC occurred pretty early in the drive cycle (Actually FF says 779 seconds). There is MORE information available about state of several things in the Misfire Monitor dashboard I've posted previously if we can get it working. See the following two posts:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post17546823

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post17322257

Other than those things, FF data seems to be fairly clean and normal for the surrounding conditions as I understand them.

At this moment, I'm thinking I would keep a 'squinted' eye on ambient temp, BARO(), and MAF (which looks roughly ok in FF for 2.2k RPM). Next consider the post in my earlier response - keep in mind the 5.4L is VERY picky about ignition. Do "HOSPITAL CLEAN" plug change (NO greasy finger prints on plug ceramic), clean carbon out of plug wells beyond plug threads, NEW BOOTS a must, clean / stretch springs and COP contacts, little dab of dielectric grease on NEW boots, making sure ALL COP connectors are clean and snap in place GOOD.

Hope this helps. Good luck. :-wink

Exp2008 04-15-2018 05:54 PM

Torque Pro PIDs with F150Torqued dashboard
 
1 Attachment(s)
F150Torqued - thank you for the kind welcome and good memories.

I plan to make your Great Rug Tool today. If I may say so, sir - your attitude towards tools reminds me of Robert Pirsig's point of view in Zen and the Art of MM. Could I ask you to send me me a good link to the TDC rotation instructions for our engine? My knowledge of my engine is still very limited.

Re: Torque Pro dashboard:

I started with your Torque Misfire Monitor v1-03.csv, edited the file manually, moved it to .torque/extendedpids and tried to 'Add predefined set' in the app
The app import filter did not like my text very much, it ignored some of the new lines or misread them. I ended up entering the values manually - please see attached .csv and the screenshot. The screenshot is taken today with the engine idling next to the garage.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...eb5d43d1b4.jpg

Dashboard

Exp2008 04-15-2018 06:14 PM

MODE $06 and Freeze Frame Data
 
Thank you again for your time and the detailed analysis of my yesterday's Test Results. In order to reproduce the P0304, I grab my boat, go down to the nearest Puget Sound park (two miles from home), make a U-turn and have an miniature Snoqualmie pass testing ground which turns the CEL on every time. Yesterday was a real downer. The atmospheric pressure was probably Seattle-record low, my wife slept through the whole day - hence your good point about my vehicle running under water.

ODB2 101 is in order, I do realize more studying is required before I can fully understand the information you have so kindly provided.

Sincerely,

Arsen

F150Torqued 04-15-2018 09:50 PM

I notice your Ford 5.4v3 Misfire Monitor.csv file has no C/R separating each line. IDK, but I think that would screw Torque UP on importing. You may have manipulated the file with Excel - who likes to do funny, funky, clever things. I realize a "CSV" file is often treated as an Excel file, and technically it is. But Torque wants a 'flat text file' with an extension 'csv'. Also - I try to avoid the period in the middle of the file name if that's the name you downloaded to your phone. Maybe this will help.

Exp2008 04-15-2018 11:25 PM

The file Ford 5.4v3 Misfire Monitor.csv I attached to my post is as-is copy of ./torque/extendedpids/monitor.csv on the Android tablet running Torque Pro (I did rename the file before attaching though). However, I think you are correct suspecting the CRs. Even though I would not touch a flat file with Excel, I did the editing in TextEdit (macOS) - it may have messed up CRs and LFs in your original text.

All the initial problems notwithstanding, your dashboard is up and running on my tablet now. After I clean the well(s) per your recommendations, I'll keep on watching (and reading the OBD manual you have sent me). Could you give me a hint on how you rotate to the TopDeadCenter when you do the cleaning? Do you use a compression/vacuum gauge, or is it enough to watch a screwdriver go up and down?

Thank you.

F150Torqued 04-16-2018 07:56 AM


Originally Posted by Exp2008 (Post 17928715)
The file ... I attached to my post is as-is copy of ./torque/extendedpids/monitor.csv on the Android tablet running Torque Pro. ...

Come to think of it, I noticed that and now recall finding it strange when I backed up my entire .Torque/extendedpids file. Anyway - glad you got the dashboard working.

I had all eight plugs out during well(s) cleaning and it rotated easily with a socket/ratchet on crank pulley - though only a couple clicks at a time. But that whole issue is of less importance using the "rag/wire/drill" red-neck tool with lacquer thinner or B12-Chemtool instead of a brass wire bottle brush. May be a little slower but we for sure want to avoid this: http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/13...lp-piease.html A long shank screwdriver will reach piston and it's 'easy' to tell when piston is UP (whether exhaust or compression stroke - don't care for our purpose).

You got a buncha' guys pulling for you here though. :-X25

Exp2008 04-17-2018 01:15 AM

Between work, kids, disgusting weather (and lack of space in my garage) I may not be able to get the cleaning job done until the weekend.
I do have your rag-wire-drill tool ready with some carb cleaners and a long screwdriver next to it on the workbench.

While I admire your modesty about quick self-made solutions, imho this is a quality tool because it gets the job done with minimum hassle and low risk of unpleasant accidents. If you scroll my favorite book down to page 55, couple of pages will illustrate the point much better than I possibly could. The narrator talks about selecting the best shims for motorcycle handlebars.

Since I do not have a meaningful progress report on my problem yet, I hope you and other guys find the discourse amusing. The rest of the book has a lot to say about Quality.

F150Torqued 04-17-2018 09:36 PM

You must have ran across my red-neck CAI. Wait till you do a timing job on you 5.4 and I got a couple of good tools (that you've got laying around) for that too!

Liked the book reference. When I make my Catch Can out of a beer can, maybe we can author our own book. :-X24

PhilH. 08-31-2018 03:01 PM

First, I am excited to have found this site. I have been chasing an open loop misfire for over a year with hesitation at heavy acceleration.
2005 F-150 5.4L
I replaced plugs (none broke), COPS, injectors, fuel filter. I seemingly can't get the Torque Pro for iPhone, but I do have FixD. The only reading that is obviously screwy is long term fuel trim bank 1 - it runs around +20% while bank two stays in single digits.
It runs ok cold for a minute or two then misfires always #8 sometimes #4, on rare occasion I get a lean code. Once I get almost midrange on temp, it clears up and runs smooth with only hesitation/misfire if I hit the pedal (not quite punch).

I am considering using a Top Engine cleaner, but I am betting you'd recommend your method first - it does seem most posts here were dealing with misfires after warm (closed loop) so I am a little hesitant as I hate removing them for just the fun of it. ;)

-Phil

dvs765 12-10-2018 09:47 PM

2006 F250 3V Triton Engine Random Misfires
 
Well, It's a long story as most of us have had. This is actually my wife's truck, but it is my PROBLEM. Let's start by stating everything that has been done. Replaced Driver side Valve pan cover (PCV Valve located here), Intake manifold (plastic), All 8 injectors via dealer motorcraft part from VIN, All 8 spark plugs via dealer motorcraft part from VIN ( All 8 broke off used NAPA # 77-4021 tool to remove with no big issues), MAF sensor, both VCT solenoids, crank position sensor, and all 8 COP's (Coils). The only thing that isn't motorcraft is the COP's which are MSD. I am ready to SCREAM. I am a DIY'er but this is over the top. I have rebuilt several engines in my life, all 1970-1995 engines, and consider myself decent at troubleshooting and reading forums by learning from someone else's experience. EVERY item that has been replaced or procedure that has been done has improved the truck's running situation. I have experienced the lack of power, missing out at different RPM's, dying at an idle, noise at an idle, no vacuum (from the notorious hose on the rear of the manifold), and now I am having random misfires. I have not tried the "F150 Torqued" position on the cleaning the spark plug holes out yet, but will be in the next week, I hope. I live in Central / Southern Indiana and the temperature is dropping (low's in the teens and highs around freezing). The truck will not fit through my garage door with the lift and tires on it. Now about the truck: It is a 2006 F-250 with the 3V 5.4 engine. It just now has 71,104 miles on it (12 years old). It has 35" tires and 6" of lift and IMHO it has always been a "dog". I am very familiar with big tires and engine power, but like I said this is my wife's truck. I own a 2009 6.4 diesel with a spartan tuner with mostly stock sized tires,no lift, and no issues. So I am hopeful that "F150 Torqued" is absolutely right about my spark plug change and cleaning out the head holes. I will reply if that makes a difference, and I will reply even if it doesn't.

Krista Jarvis 05-10-2019 03:34 AM

Hoping for some proper guidance
 
I just recently purchased a 2006 f150 5.4l with 209,000km on it. When I first got her she ran perfect no noises no problems. I did an intense amount of research on these engines before buying this one. Shortly after I got her I seen the front of my valve cover on the passenger side started leaking, decided to take on the task of changing them. Last weekend I tore her apart to replace the gaskets other than a few stubborn bolts everything went well. I also inspected the inside while I had the covers off and everything looked even better than expected. Timing chains looked brand new, nothing had scratches or scoring, no sludge, looked brand new inside. While I had her apart I decided to check my plugs they did not look great so decided to do the change while I have everything out of my way. I went ahead and purchased the champion double platinum spark plugs for the whole engine I checked all the gaps and made sure they were all between 40-45 and did the change without any known problems. At the same time I also did an oil change and a rad flush as both were also due. When changing the plugs I used dielectric grease on the ends of the coils and put everything back together. Once I started her up she didnít sound bad but I did notice a very slight misfire I checked my connections and decided to take her on a test drive. I filled her up with premium gas before hitting the road to take her on a small 20-30min run. Once I got her running the problems really started, the mis became worse and she threw a code about 10 mins in when I checked it sure enough cylinder 8 misfire. I wasnít super concerned figured I may have killed a coil as that one had given me the most troubles coming out and going back in. Next day I purchased a new coil and replaced the coil on cylinder 8. I start her back up and same thing. Rough start, rough idle, still misfiring. At this point I decide that I may have a bad spark on my hands so I decided to do some testing. I took one of my old plugs as they hadnít actually died yet and put it back into cylinder 8. Sure enough my misfire stopped in this cylinder but a new one started immediately on cylinder 1. After reading this whole thread I feel there is many things that could be causing this the only thing that throws me off is the way the misfire jumped from 8 to 1 as soon as I put the old plug into 8. My question is which problem is most likely causing this problem and what is my best route for troubleshooting?
Thank you in advance

F150Torqued 05-10-2019 10:36 AM


Originally Posted by Krista Jarvis (Post 18645219)
...

My question is which problem is most likely causing this problem and what is my best route for troubleshooting?
Thank you in advance

As you said, there are several sources for misfires. It's hard to say with ANY degree of certainty. However some thoughts that might help.

I would ditch the 'Champions'. These engines do not like most of the NON Motorcraft spark plugs. Replace them ALL with Motorcraft SP-546 (the latest updated plug for this gen engine) making sure all boots/springs are new and making good contact.

COPS seldom fail - though their primary connector neck can be cracked by excessive force on the connector trying to get it to 'snap'. Replaced any 'cracked' ones. THAT 'snap' is important! If clip is broken - REPLACE it. The rubber 'o' ring in the clip will push connector back up and cause "P035x". NOTE: the 350 series DTC is NOT a 'misfire', but rather an electrical issue in the primary or secondary circuit of the coil - PRECLUDING its firing. Primary is generally the clip, secondary can be lack of good connection in the COP spring <-> Plug (the secondary circuit grounds to engine literally via the spark at plug tip). BUT a coil internals is NOTHING but two different lengths and sizes wire coiled around an iron core - practically nothing to fail.

Misfires designated as "P030x" (the 300 series) are detected by the high speed processor in the PCM. It "EXPECTS" the crankshaft rotational speed to exhibit a brief jump in rotational speed at the instant spark is commanded to a given cylinder ---- "IF and ONLY IF" the primary and secondary circuit test was GOOD. If there was NO P035x and If that rotational acceleration is not present ---- BINGO, there wasn't an explosion and there SHOULD have been -- OR the explosion was TOO weak (below some factory lower limit). THAT is a 'misfire'.

Considering these factors can narrow direction of misfire diagnostic efforts.

These engines by design operate on the very edge of ignition parameters for maximum economy / emissions and everything has to work just about perfectly. I would recommend a 'hospital clean' (No greasy finger prints on ceramic) plug change with SP-546 - after taking a read of my experiences with misfires here: https://www.f150forum.com/f4/5-4l-3v...6/#post3930018 . Make sure the carbon build-up is removed from the extended plug well -beyond the threads. It is the source of both damaging new plugs on installation AND changind the plug's temp range. I do this EVERY plug change.

My 'ole 2004 5.4l has 243k on it and will frequently run 50 - 70 drive cycles without a single misfire per the above discussed Torque Pro dashboard shown on Post #61, this thread.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes

F150Torqued 05-10-2019 10:40 AM

WHAT WAS THE RESULT?
 

Originally Posted by dvs765 (Post 18354028)
...
...
...
So I am hopeful that "F150 Torqued" is absolutely right about my spark plug change and cleaning out the head holes. I will reply if that makes a difference, and I will reply even if it doesn't.

Hey dvs765 where did you go? I notice your post count is still at 'ONE'.

Did you ever do your spark plug change and HOW DID IT TURN OUT?

Krista Jarvis 05-11-2019 08:13 PM

Continuing issues
 
So I have done a full spark plug work up on my 06 f150 5.4l 4x4 I followed your procedure exactly cleaning all carbon and putting in the exact motorcraft plugs. After it was done I turned her on took it for a short test drive (maybe 10mins) with no Codes including the P030x I was getting before. I did notice when at a stop idling it has a bit of a shake to it nothing like before but it is there. She is running better. After I brought it home I let it idle for about 5-10mins to find a new code. This time I have gotten a p0174 system running lean (bank 2). Now Iím a little stumped to what the connection could be and why it took so long to show. Any idea on what to try for this code or why my engine has a good shake only when idling or at a stop?

Krista Jarvis 05-11-2019 08:19 PM

I should also add. The code isnít as persistent as the misfire I cleared it twice as I was messing around with my intake figured it may be lose and some how tripped a sensor. Both times the code doesnít show up immediately but instead after longer periods of time while idling.


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