Thanks for sharing

 

The link that @jschira inserted into the post went to: https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net...mp;oe=625EBEF0

Since that path no longer exists, we can't know what @jschira was referring to. I even tried: https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net...43862583_n.jpg

. . . and still find nothing. I searched the internet for 278369777_5059019677516813_571656015643862583_n.jp g and 2583_n.jpg and found nothing.

Since we can't tell from this thread whether or not @jschira was for or against the statement "Myth of the 3000 Mile OCI", I'll expand on this a bit, based on my knowledge and experience:

- For (the myth), therefore for 3,000 mile OCI: An engine can never have too clean engine oil. If the oil pickup in an engine was somehow hooked to an oil tanker full of the precise grade and certification of fresh engine oil with a really long hose, that engine would happily run its whole expected life without any oiling issues. Oh yeah, in this scenario the oil pan drains into another oil tanker through another long hose. This presupposes that the engine didn't have any other design, quality, or other issues that would directly and/or indirectly affect the performance of the engine oil and/or engine-oil lubricated parts. That having been said, we also know it to be true that an engine that never gets an oil change will fail due to lubrication issues. There must be some point in between. Maybe it is 3,000 miles? I don't have any evidence in front of me that confirms with zero doubt that it isn't 3,000 miles. 3,000 is just a number after all, just like 2,999 and 3,001 . . . and 4,875 and 62. And 63,127 for that matter. That having been said, I personally have gotten most of my personal vehicles to well over 200,000 miles with no oiling issues, except one that we bought with around 180,000 miles on it with a lifter rattle at idle that isn't any worse now at nearly 320,000 miles. I have no idea the maintenance it got prior to me. My only exception to this is my 1999 7.3, which goes 5,000 miles between changes.

- Against (the myth), therefore against 3,000 mile OCI: An engine is meant to function without clean engine oil. Call it "over-building" if you like. The assumption here is that the oil will never be clean, even when freshly poured in, thanks to residue from the previous batch of oil. If the oil pickup in an engine was somehow hooked to an oil tanker full of the precise grade and certification of 50% "dirty" engine oil with a really long hose, that engine would happily run its whole expected life without any oiling issues. Oh yeah, in this scenario the oil pan drains into another oil tanker through another long hose. This presupposes that the engine didn't have any other design, quality, or other issues that would directly and/or indirectly affect the performance of the engine oil and/or engine-oil lubricated parts. That having been said, we have to ask the question, "what is "50% dirty" engine oil?" Is this oil 50% dirty from engine design? . . . or operating environment? . . . or mileage? . . . or contamination from blow-by gases? . . . or engine parts wear? . . . or etc. etc.? Now we don't know the true answer for a number of reasons. While we're here, we don't know if this engine is new or old, well beaten or babied, always warmed up or always cold, etc. Do we extend oil changes based on these factors? New engine goes longer between changes than old engine? We also don't know if this is a oil-drinking engine that gets topped off a lot, therefore has fresher oil in it (overall). There must be some point in between. Maybe it is 3,000 miles? That is too round of a number, especially when it applies to a 50 year old Buick big block, a 25 year old Dodge 5.2 Magnum, 12 year old Kia, a 5 year old Honda, and a 25 year old Taurus that's blown two head gaskets in its life then been repaired properly each time. There was an issue over at GM with their 2007-2009 3.6 V-6 engine where the timing chains would stretch due to over-extending oil change intervals, and who cares except for the part where the stretch would be enough to outstrip the cam phasers' ability to compensate, leading to emissions faults. They reprogrammed to shorten the interval as reported by the computer in order to resolve that, and swapped out a boatload of timing chains to fix the ones that failed. Now here we are back to discussing design again. Moving along, I don't have any evidence in front of me that confirms with zero doubt that it is 3,000 miles. 3,000 is just a number after all, just like 2,999 and 3,001 . . . and 4,875 and 62. And 63,127 for that matter. That having been said, I personally have gotten most of my personal vehicles to well over 200,000 miles with no oiling issues, except one that we bought with around 180,000 miles on it with a lifter rattle at idle that isn't any worse now at nearly 320,000 miles. I have no idea the maintenance it got prior to me.

In the end, this is not a matter of pride, or of who is right or wrong with deciding to change oil at one interval or another across the board of all cars ever created. This is a matter of how much the oil has degraded at the point of being changed, along with how much the engine can tolerate this. A GM 3.6 probably shouldn't be made to tolerate extended oil changes too often, but a Ford 4.6 can probably slide a little. There is not one single answer to this question. Personally, my theory of changing oil every 3,000 miles has worked well for me. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't have gotten the exact same result from 2,000 mile intervals or 4,000 mile intervals. I have no way of telling . . .

. . . UNLESS I test oil at every oil change, map the results, align the results next to the weather, loading, and driving style during that oil change, then adjust my intervals based on these variables, including these factors during the current oil interval. "Oh yeah, I floored it for several seconds towing a small trailer today, I need to knock off 7.9 miles of oil change interval for that."

I can't see any of us doing that.

The engineers have done this to some great degree in how they set up the oil change monitors on all of our newer cars, but I'm betting this audience here doesn't much trust that, and that's why we're talking shorter intervals.

Heck, many folks here, that talk about what oil change interval is best, often trade their vehicle at some arbitrary interval of miles or years or whatever, before ever finding out the long-term results of their oil change interval preferences.

In the end, the "Myth of the 3000 Mile OCI" boils down to removing the engineers from the equation, and then bench-racing how much money each of us thinks they are saving based on our oil change intervals, including but not limited to oil quality, oil cost, filter cost, engine repair cost, shop cost, etc. etc. The only ones that actually know this number accurately are, ironically, the ones that let their oil change intervals go far too long and then have a clear-cut engine-oiling failure.

My $0.02

 

IIRC the OP presented information how the now-traditional or conventional 3000 OCI came into being, that it was never meant to be an absolute require to eliminate or even greatly reduce engine failure due oil breaking down from "extended" running time. He generally favors being more responsible towards the environment, that with OCI's sometimes 2x to 3x does not contribute to premature engine failures is less harmful to the planet. (I AM NOT speaking for him, simply adding what I believe his point was at the time this was first posted. Apologies JSchira if I'm not accurate in that contention.)

I did perform a Blackstone Lab's oil analysis on my Ford reman'd 5.4 after 6,325 miles using Motorcraft Synthetic Blend 5W/20, here's their report:

Blackstone said: J W: Everything looks good in this first sample from your E350. Metals are quite low in relation to averages,especially considering this oil was in place for 6,325 miles, while averages represent only about 4,800 miles .Nothing here looks like a problem, from the wear profile which equates to impressively low wear, to the lackof harmful contamination. Low potassium and sodium rule out coolant and the flashpoint was sufficiently high to show no measurable fuel. The TBN came in at 3.1, so the oil still had enough active additive in reserve to run longer if you ever wanted. Great!

While that report is encouraging I never intend to go that far again, typically I'm changing at about 4,000 miles knowing I'm good for beyond that if absolutely necessary. I will say I've NEVER heard of anyone's engine failing with "too frequent" oil changes. There's a fine line between too often and not often enough---I would think 5,000 would be a safe interval if using proven brands or formulations for gasoline engines.

 

Actually, environmental concerns are just a side benefit. The thrust of my thesis is fixed mileage OCIs are completely arbitrary and many are based on products introduced into the market while Eisenhower was in office. Modern oils and oil change algorithms have completely obsoleted prior "Rules of Thumb" taught to you by your granddad.

 

Ah I see.

Yeah it was an arbitrary number. Reading through old manuals and stuff it seems like manufacturers were all over the place. At the same time, depending on what decade we're talking about, engineers were brewing up some distrust with some of the "innovations" that got pushed out the door, causing the rest of us to dream up ideas we thought were better. I have one car from the early 1960s that specifies a 2,500 mile oil change interval. It comes out dark but not terrible at 3,000. I have one from the mid 1970s that specifies a 4,000 mile interval, and it comes out pitch black at 3,000. I have one from the early 1980s that specifies 3,000 or 2,500 for severe and comes out looking brand new at 3,000 , even with the factory-specified teeny tiny filter on it.

Also, the design, metallurgy, seals, filtering, and fuel has gotten a lot better over the years. A 1970s engine will put a lot more garbage into its oil than a 1990s engine or a 2010s engine. If we could somehow get a factory fresh period correct 1965 Ford 300 and a factory fresh period correct 1995 Ford 300, then drive them equivalently in their respective time periods, used oil out of them would be a lot worse on the 1965 than the 1995.

I agree with that. Fortunately for us, we can turn in used engine oil to be recycled and they use it for other stuff. I think a majority of that is heating but I'm not sure.

​
That's good news!​​​​​​ I've never done one on my personal vehicles, but have been tempted on occasion.

Most E-350s can only dream of seeing oil changes that often, while getting beaten pretty consistently, and still they last at least a couple hundred thousand miles.

Me either. And I don't imagine anyone will ever try it at today's prices.

I agree. I just keep my cars forever so I figure oil changes a little more often still don't cost near as much as major engine work. So far I've never had any internal engine issues except for things I've inherited from the vehicles' past lives, all of which haven't gotten worse after lots of use.

 

Definitely agree. I've seen folks fret about being over 3,000 miles on anything, no matter what it was, who owned it, or how it got used. Just that, by itself, shows that 3,000 miles is arbitrary. One car at 3,000 miles of thrashing through short trips in city traffic jams in dreadful weather will have much more "used up" oil than another car just like it that did 3,000 miles at highway speeds on only the nicest of days. The notion that both need an oil change at 3,000 miles shows how arbitrary the number is.

Having said that, I do believe all use of an engine creates wear, and the more often the oil is changed diminishes this to some degree. How much of a degree none of us know. What little testing that has been published by legitimate sources is usually skewed towards or away from whatever claim is being made at the moment. That leaves us all guessing based on what we see around us, and often having different opinions.

I will say I learned one thing about extended oil changes from GM: When their 3.6 high-feature engine had all of those emissions issues in 2007/2008 and the recall was to replace timing chains and shorten the oil change reminder intervals, that surprised me. For those that didn't follow this issue: Factory engineered extended oil change intervals caused a lot of these to run too long on degraded oil. This created a slight bit more wear than the engineers imagined would happen, and over time caused the timing chains to "stretch". This wasn't stretching like making the metal longer, but rather stretching due to tiny bits of increased wear between the timing chains' pins and links. A lot of this wear was taken up by the tensioners, and the cam phasers could adjust for the difference in position. Beyond a certain point, the cam phasers couldn't make up for enough of it. The cam position difference between commanded and actual became too great, then the check engine light would come on and the vehicle wouldn't pass emissions. The ones that had the problem usually did so in the first 60,000 miles or so. That leaves me imagining how much wear was increased to eat timing chains that much in so few miles. GM replaced a zillion chain sets on those, usually a two-day process in a dealership lift bay with an experienced mechanic. I bet more than a few bean counters at GM went to counseling over that fiasco. They shortened the oil change interval a bit and voila' no more problem on the same engines. That engine, whether I'm a Ford fan or not, has been a pretty solid engine since then.

Anyways, I figure if my current practice only costs a little extra, and I don't ever have issues related to oiling, even at 250,000+ miles, that's worth it to me. If I got rid of vehicles with less than 100,000 miles on them then I'd follow the oil change reminder robot and never think twice. I've seen a lot of folks bat this issue around then trade their car at lower miles . . . which means they were essentially spending extra money so a stranger could have no idea they got a slightly less worn engine at the used car lot.

 

^^^^What OCI did GM initially recommend for that engine?

To me oil changes are far less than replacing or deeply servicing or replace an engine. Having replaced a 5.4 for dreadfully low OP at hot idle at just 140K miles $35 every 3-4K miles is indeed less costly!

 

Myth?
I do not let mine go much over 3000 miles on an oil change
Especially the expensive cammer motors
It you have a 52 Packard, then okay 7500
Simply recycle your used engine oil (it gets turned back into new cheap engine oil in most instances)

 

Consider the case of mid-grade gasoline. Around me, I can buy 87, 89 and 93 octane. While I am sure that there are some, no OEM that I am aware of requires 89 octane. Either your car runs fine on 87, or it needs 91. So why does 89 sell?

Some people just don't think the "cheap" stuff (87 octane) is good enough. But they understand that 93 octane is probably better than they need, and it is also more expensive. So they "feed" their car well with 89 octane and sleep peacefully at night.

An analogy can be drawn to OCIs. Most OEMs are recommending OCIs in the 7500-10,000 mile range. Some consumers believe that this OCI is too long and that they could be harming their engines.

But some of these same consumers understand that the 3000 mile OCI is an anachronism.

So they treat their car "better" with a 5000 mile OCI and sleep peacefully at night.

It is simply picking a number out of the air. There simply is no basis to believe that an engine will last longer with a 5000 mile OCI than it will with a 7500 miles OCI or even a 10,000 OCI. Following that logic, a 3000 mile OCI should let your engine last longer than a 5000 mile OCI. But following that logic further, a 1000 mile OCI should let your engine last longer than a 3000 mile OCI. Taking the logic to an extreme, a 10 mile OCI should let your engine last longer than a 1000 mile OCI.

The only reliable way of knowing just how long the oil can last is to test. And that is what the OEMs have been doing for decades. Terabytes of data in under countless conditions from which systems like the IOLMs were developed.

But the echos of granddad's voice still ring in many peoples' ears.

 

The manual just says that the interval might vary greatly based on driving habits yada yada, and that when the [change oil] light comes on then you need to change oil within 600 miles. It also says that no matter what the oil life monitor system says, the oil needs to be changed at least yearly. There was a recall that re-flashed the PCM with a shorted interval, and also changed the shift logic that delayed downshifts. I had occasion to drive one before and after this recall, and also had the pleasure of taking it to have this and other recall work done. It was night and day difference with shift logic. The dealer wouldn't tell me what was changed exactly, just that the re-flash needed to be done as part of the recall that "optimizes the oil change interval" and "optimizes transmission responsiveness". I think they were required to speak in code, or possibly they didn't know or care about the specifics of these recalls.

I agree on this entirely. There are some engines that are more tolerant to extended oil change intervals, but in my book there's no good reason to push it. So far I've had great results this way.

 

Don't forget the part where most or all of the oil change shops out there pushed the 3,000 mile OCI for decades, including on the little sticker in the corner of the windshield.

 

Use the severe service schedule on all of your vehicles
That is used for Police and Taxi
Mountainous regions and extreme hot or cold temps
So, all you soccer moms and skiers

 

As this thread refuses to die or offer an acceptable consensus I'd suggest anyone in doubt how effective their own OCI might be once a year submit a sample to Blackstone Labs for their analysis. I've done this several times since installing a Ford reman'd 5.4 2V its has greatly relieved my peace of mind that combining a known "better" brand of oil (Motorcraft) I can safely go up to 6,300 miles without severe degradation of the oil.

Blackstone sends a summation of their analysis in plain speak, not relying on raw numbers alone to show the test results. They offer opinions on your reported OCI which is very helpful if you're not a chemist. They also analyzed my ATF (Motorcraft Mercon V) suggesting I shorten that change interval from 50K to 30-35K for longest transmission life.

Initially I was concerned my long idle times during winter months would be an issue and yet so far that's not proved to be the case at all relative to the engine oil. Frankly I trust Blackstone to best advise me of the best OCI for my engine and will continue sending a sample once a year.

 

About how much does that cost?