Coolant in Fuel Filter H2O Drain
Thread Starter
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5th Wheeling
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 42
Likes: 2
Coolant in Fuel Filter H2O Drain
2003 7.3, ~260k miles.
Backstory
Have had truck for almost 1.5 years now.
Only driven maybe every 3 days or so on average.
Have put about 12k miles on it.
As far as I know its on the original injectors.
Initially, didnt have any trouble starting. Soon after purchase though, started having trouble starting if it sat. Longer it sat, the harder it was to start. Would belch lots of white smoke and run rough then clear up in about a 1-3 minutes. Ran fine once it was started and steady.
Was losing a little bit of coolant internally. Had to top off about a few ounces every 3-4 days or so.
Never had fuel in coolant.
Oil was always uncontaminated.
Today
Truck had been sitting for about 2-3 weeks or so. Just finished replacing/relocating GPR and was ready to fire up.
Hit the key. Started and ran fine. Shut it off.
Hit the key. Started up and ran like crap for about 2 minutes. Died.
Hit it again. Started, ran like crap for about 1 minute. Died.
Got a water in fuel light for first time ever. Opened the fuel bowl drain valve and a bunch of bright red ELC(coolant) ran out. Pure. Not mixed with fuel. Ran coolant out until only fuel.
Started it again, ran for a few seconds and died.
Wouldnt start after that. Tried cranking it maybe a 3 or 4 times and it would spin for about a second or 2 and then nothing.
I opened the radiator cap to relieve the system pressure.
Questions
Backstory
Have had truck for almost 1.5 years now.
Only driven maybe every 3 days or so on average.
Have put about 12k miles on it.
As far as I know its on the original injectors.
Initially, didnt have any trouble starting. Soon after purchase though, started having trouble starting if it sat. Longer it sat, the harder it was to start. Would belch lots of white smoke and run rough then clear up in about a 1-3 minutes. Ran fine once it was started and steady.
Was losing a little bit of coolant internally. Had to top off about a few ounces every 3-4 days or so.
Never had fuel in coolant.
Oil was always uncontaminated.
Today
Truck had been sitting for about 2-3 weeks or so. Just finished replacing/relocating GPR and was ready to fire up.
Hit the key. Started and ran fine. Shut it off.
Hit the key. Started up and ran like crap for about 2 minutes. Died.
Hit it again. Started, ran like crap for about 1 minute. Died.
Got a water in fuel light for first time ever. Opened the fuel bowl drain valve and a bunch of bright red ELC(coolant) ran out. Pure. Not mixed with fuel. Ran coolant out until only fuel.
Started it again, ran for a few seconds and died.
Wouldnt start after that. Tried cranking it maybe a 3 or 4 times and it would spin for about a second or 2 and then nothing.
I opened the radiator cap to relieve the system pressure.
Questions
- Is this truck hydrolocked?
- What are the chances I bent a rod or something of that nature?
- Can I verify hydrolock by turning the crank by hand?
- Can I hand crank the engine backwards a few revolutions to clear the combustion chambers and then start it?
- Does it sound like I have cracked head, bad injectors, injector cups, o-rings or any combination of the above?
- With almost 260k miles on what I assume to be the original injectors, should I just go ahead and replace all the injectors and o-rings anyway even if its just the cups?
- What should my next move be in the morning? Besides bowels & coffee.
Lead Driver
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,129
Likes: 1,919
From: Ponca City, OK
Usually it's fuel showing up in the coolant not the other way around. In that scenario 1 or more injector cups are at fault. I'm having trouble working out how coolant would make it to the fuel bowl in a factory fuel system. The only way it could get there is from the tank, and the only way for it to get to the tank is for someone to put it there. Maybe someone here has seen this issue before and can help with the how. For now I would suggest pulling the valve covers and glow plugs. Then hand crank a few revs then maybe try bumping the starter. Is it possible the starter just got hot from the cranking or did the engine stop dead like hitting a wall?
Thread Starter
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5th Wheeling
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 42
Likes: 2
I think that what is thought to be happening is that once the truck is shut off the fuel system is no longer under pressure but the cooling system is, so any compromised barrier between the two allows the coolant to migrate into the fuel system especially when the engine cools off(EDIT). So >
Running
Fuel=60 psi
Cooling=15 psi
Fuel might be being kept out of the cooling system in this condition by being used too quickly through injection to have enough dwell time to make it through, say, the damaged injector cups.
Stopped
Fuel=0 psi
Cooling=15 psi
In this condition the coolant now has an unimpeded path to the fuel system. The longer it spends in this condition the more coolant the 15 psi system places into the fuel system. Which is why I can make run errands and still be able to start the truck with no problem and no startup smoke. However, if it sits overnight its hard starting/smoking and the longer it sits the worse it gets.
As far as making it to the fuel bowl, like I said, the longer it sits the worst it gets and this last time it sat for a very long time. That may have been enough time for the coolant to make it all the way to the fuel bowl up from the fuel feed lines in the fuel rail, having slipped past the injector cups(assuming that is where the damage is). That may seem like a lot of space for the coolant to fill and a long way for it to travel but Im wondering if when the fuel drains back into the tank from the fuel bowl it creates a suction effect that pulls a volume of coolant up to the bowl. By the way, Im not sure that the fuel system even drains back on these engines. Im just spitballing here.
I was hoping to not have to pull the VCs. Thats why I asked about reverse hand-cranking to try and clear the coolant out through the exhaust valves. To get the truck started. At that point I would drive it like normal and just crack the coolant reservoir cap to relieve the system pressure each time I stop the truck then monitor the starting condition. That would tell me for sure that its the injector cups and then I would likely just bite the bullet and do the cups, injectors, etc all at the same time so I dont have to get getting under the VCs.
Last edited by nola000; Feb 12, 2022 at 07:20 AM. Reason: Wording mistake
Tuned
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 436
Likes: 51
From: Southwest WA
I had 2010 Jetta TDI hydroloc and would not want to try to run a Diesel if there is any chance of water entering combustion chamber.
It was caused by emission control system design flaw and resulted in broken piston & bent connecting rod.
IE. Condensation collecting in inter-cooler.
It was out of warranty, but VW still paid 3/4 of the repair.
$$
Just saying...
It was caused by emission control system design flaw and resulted in broken piston & bent connecting rod.
IE. Condensation collecting in inter-cooler.
It was out of warranty, but VW still paid 3/4 of the repair.
$$
Just saying...
Hotshot
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 10,750
Likes: 1,065
From: Douglassville, PA
I can't figure out how coolant could get into the fuel bowl either. Does it refuse to turn over? I don't know but I would not expect it to hydrolock, I would expect any coolant to just blow through. It would hydrolock if coolant built up in the cylinder. I don't think spinning it backwards would make any difference if it is hydrolocked. You would have to pull the glow plugs and push the liquid out.
Lead Driver
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,129
Likes: 1,919
From: Ponca City, OK
Ive seen many people make that claim online but Ive also seen many cases like mine.
I think that what is thought to be happening is that once the truck is shut off the fuel system is no longer under pressure but the cooling system is, so any compromised barrier between the two allows the coolant to migrate into the fuel system especially while the engine is still warm as the compromised barrier is still expanded open. The damaged area may close off and shrink once the engine is cool. So >
Running
Fuel=60 psi
Cooling=15 psi
Fuel might be being kept out of the cooling system in this condition by being used too quickly through injection to have enough dwell time to make it through, say, the damaged injector cups.
Stopped
Fuel=0 psi
Cooling=15 psi
In this condition the coolant now has an unimpeded path to the fuel system. The longer it spends in this condition the more coolant the 15 psi system places into the fuel system. Which is why I can make run errands and still be able to start the truck with no problem and no startup smoke. However, if it sits overnight its hard starting/smoking and the longer it sits the worse it gets.
As far as making it to the fuel bowl, like I said, the longer it sits the worst it gets and this last time it sat for a very long time. That may have been enough time for the coolant to make it all the way to the fuel bowl up from the fuel feed lines in the fuel rail, having slipped past the injector cups(assuming that is where the damage is). That may seem like a lot of space for the coolant to fill and a long way for it to travel but Im wondering if when the fuel drains back into the tank from the fuel bowl it creates a suction effect that pulls a volume of coolant up to the bowl. By the way, Im not sure that the fuel system even drains back on these engines. Im just spitballing here.
I was hoping to not have to pull the VCs. Thats why I asked about reverse hand-cranking to try and clear the coolant out through the exhaust valves. To get the truck started. At that point I would drive it like normal and just crack the coolant reservoir cap to relieve the system pressure each time I stop the truck then monitor the starting condition. That would tell me for sure that its the injector cups and then I would likely just bite the bullet and do the cups, injectors, etc all at the same time so I dont have to get getting under the VCs.
I think that what is thought to be happening is that once the truck is shut off the fuel system is no longer under pressure but the cooling system is, so any compromised barrier between the two allows the coolant to migrate into the fuel system especially while the engine is still warm as the compromised barrier is still expanded open. The damaged area may close off and shrink once the engine is cool. So >
Running
Fuel=60 psi
Cooling=15 psi
Fuel might be being kept out of the cooling system in this condition by being used too quickly through injection to have enough dwell time to make it through, say, the damaged injector cups.
Stopped
Fuel=0 psi
Cooling=15 psi
In this condition the coolant now has an unimpeded path to the fuel system. The longer it spends in this condition the more coolant the 15 psi system places into the fuel system. Which is why I can make run errands and still be able to start the truck with no problem and no startup smoke. However, if it sits overnight its hard starting/smoking and the longer it sits the worse it gets.
As far as making it to the fuel bowl, like I said, the longer it sits the worst it gets and this last time it sat for a very long time. That may have been enough time for the coolant to make it all the way to the fuel bowl up from the fuel feed lines in the fuel rail, having slipped past the injector cups(assuming that is where the damage is). That may seem like a lot of space for the coolant to fill and a long way for it to travel but Im wondering if when the fuel drains back into the tank from the fuel bowl it creates a suction effect that pulls a volume of coolant up to the bowl. By the way, Im not sure that the fuel system even drains back on these engines. Im just spitballing here.
I was hoping to not have to pull the VCs. Thats why I asked about reverse hand-cranking to try and clear the coolant out through the exhaust valves. To get the truck started. At that point I would drive it like normal and just crack the coolant reservoir cap to relieve the system pressure each time I stop the truck then monitor the starting condition. That would tell me for sure that its the injector cups and then I would likely just bite the bullet and do the cups, injectors, etc all at the same time so I dont have to get getting under the VCs.
Thread Starter
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5th Wheeling
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 42
Likes: 2
I considered that scenario, but thought it a long shot when I considered the trip required to make it into the bowl. Through whatever breech, up the rail, past the "check valve", up into the fuel line, and finally up into bowl. All uphill and displacing the lighter diesel fuel the whole trip. I'll never say anything is impossible though. You could try pressurizing the coolant and going on the hunt with a stethoscope.
Im just hoping its not a cracked head. Im assuming there are places in the cylinder head where a fuel chamber and coolant chamber are adjacent.
I dont think my symptoms indicate a head gasket issue but Im not certain.
Ive decided to go ahead and
- open the VCs
- Remove injectors
- Pressurize the cooling system
- Inspect the cups
- Replace all the cups with the billet stainless ones from RiffRaff
- Clean the injector tips
- Gauge the solenoids
- Put it back together and cross my fingers
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Lead Driver
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,129
Likes: 1,919
From: Ponca City, OK
Yeah, that seems like a LOT of coolant. But the fact remains that there is coolant in the fuel bowl and its been happening pretty much the entire time Ive owned the truck.
Im just hoping its not a cracked head. Im assuming there are places in the cylinder head where a fuel chamber and coolant chamber are adjacent.
I dont think my symptoms indicate a head gasket issue but Im not certain.
Ive decided to go ahead and
Im just hoping its not a cracked head. Im assuming there are places in the cylinder head where a fuel chamber and coolant chamber are adjacent.
I dont think my symptoms indicate a head gasket issue but Im not certain.
Ive decided to go ahead and
- open the VCs
- Remove injectors
- Pressurize the cooling system
- Inspect the cups
- Replace all the cups with the billet stainless ones from RiffRaff
- Clean the injector tips
- Gauge the solenoids
- Put it back together and cross my fingers
I don't see a head gasket really being a possibility either since the fuel never passes between the heads and block.
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Thread Starter
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5th Wheeling
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 42
Likes: 2
Yeah, Im going to bite the bullet, since I already have everything apart, and order some rebuilt injectors. Not sure from who yet. I figure at ~260k on the clock with possibly the original injectors Im going to be opening the VCs soon again at some point anyway. Thought about DIY but I have other issues I need to take care of on the truck and just need something thats a sure thing. I dont want to be doing this again anytime soon.
Do these injectors look original? Ive been scouring pictures online of injectors of a known date of production/installation ("Ive owned this truck since new and Ive never changed the injectors and heres some pics that clearly show the SN") with a newer serial number than mine but its a difficult task made more difficult by mine being a 2003.
I wish there was a injector serial number database somewhere or someone would compile one. Seems like it would make sense for an injector rebuilder to do this considering their volume and it could also possibly drive business because people would more likely and confidently pull the trigger if they could verify that they are on their original injectors(since most probably are if they are having injector issues).
Does this look too clean? Ive seen before where people claim that if your engine looks too clean that coolant may have gotten into the engine oil.
What do the good people here see with these injectors?
Also noticed that #2, #4, #6(Ive only pulled the driver side so far) have this long vertical score on both sides(180 degrees) of the injector body. On one of them the vertical scratches are not clocked to the same position as the other two. What is this and why is it not on the #8(Long Lead)? From cracked injector cups?
Also a curious scratch mark on #2.
Do these injectors look original? Ive been scouring pictures online of injectors of a known date of production/installation ("Ive owned this truck since new and Ive never changed the injectors and heres some pics that clearly show the SN") with a newer serial number than mine but its a difficult task made more difficult by mine being a 2003.
I wish there was a injector serial number database somewhere or someone would compile one. Seems like it would make sense for an injector rebuilder to do this considering their volume and it could also possibly drive business because people would more likely and confidently pull the trigger if they could verify that they are on their original injectors(since most probably are if they are having injector issues).
Does this look too clean? Ive seen before where people claim that if your engine looks too clean that coolant may have gotten into the engine oil.
What do the good people here see with these injectors?
Also noticed that #2, #4, #6(Ive only pulled the driver side so far) have this long vertical score on both sides(180 degrees) of the injector body. On one of them the vertical scratches are not clocked to the same position as the other two. What is this and why is it not on the #8(Long Lead)? From cracked injector cups?
Also a curious scratch mark on #2.
Thread Starter
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5th Wheeling
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 42
Likes: 2
Ive read horror stories online of the troubles of removing cups that have failed in this way as the extraction often results in completion of the fracture and the bottom of the cup remaining in the cylinder head. The RiffRaff removal tool I was planning on renting isnt designed to handle this type of removal. I was looking to avoid the other style of removal tool that uses a tap for fear of dropping swarf into the combustion chambers. What size tap would I need to grab the bottom flat of the cup? This might be the only way short of removing the heads.
Let this be a lesson that anytime you open your VCs you should be checking torque on the hold down bolts for the injectors.
It's a Van Gogh
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 7,813
Likes: 1,335
From: Elk Grove, CA
O joy! Injector cup time! 
Keep telling yourself it's all fun and laughs, it will be over faster that way.
Lots of threads on the subject, be sure to pay most attention to the newer ones as the tools have changed over time. My recollection is the Riff Raff tool is the best available but I've never done the job. Might be worth starting a new thread with injector cups in the title to get more focused responses. Reference this thread for background and pics.
Speaking of pics I'm thinking those injectors are remans. Both from the scratches and the non-oem o rings. Which opens up the question of how good they are. Any idea how many miles on them? If it was starting and running smoothly before that's a good sign to leave them alone. If they are suspect I'd get them rebuilt by reputable folks like Bitterroot or Rosewood.
Keep telling yourself it's all fun and laughs, it will be over faster that way.
Lots of threads on the subject, be sure to pay most attention to the newer ones as the tools have changed over time. My recollection is the Riff Raff tool is the best available but I've never done the job. Might be worth starting a new thread with injector cups in the title to get more focused responses. Reference this thread for background and pics.
Speaking of pics I'm thinking those injectors are remans. Both from the scratches and the non-oem o rings. Which opens up the question of how good they are. Any idea how many miles on them? If it was starting and running smoothly before that's a good sign to leave them alone. If they are suspect I'd get them rebuilt by reputable folks like Bitterroot or Rosewood.
Thread Starter
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5th Wheeling
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 42
Likes: 2
Got the injector cups and removal/installation tool in from RiffRaff.
WOW. Nice kit.
Took a measurement of the wall thickness as best I could with my bore gauge but its difficult with the taper. Looks like the thickness of the RiffRaff stainless cups in the same common problem area of the brass cups varies from ~1.5mm to ~2.75mm. I dont have an OEM brass cup available yet to mic-out but Ill update this section of the post when I pull one. Im guessing the brass cups will be almost half that.
I dont know, man. They could probably boast about this one. [img]data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7[/img]
Like a piece of jewelry.
Sorry Im geeking out. I like quality things.
In case its hard to make out - 1.36mm(0.054")
7.80mm(0.307")
WOW. Nice kit.
Took a measurement of the wall thickness as best I could with my bore gauge but its difficult with the taper. Looks like the thickness of the RiffRaff stainless cups in the same common problem area of the brass cups varies from ~1.5mm to ~2.75mm. I dont have an OEM brass cup available yet to mic-out but Ill update this section of the post when I pull one. Im guessing the brass cups will be almost half that.
I dont know, man. They could probably boast about this one. [img]data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7[/img]
Like a piece of jewelry.
Sorry Im geeking out. I like quality things.
In case its hard to make out - 1.36mm(0.054")
7.80mm(0.307")