Weight in-bed for Winter Traction
#61
10-13-2009, 06:09 PM
How slow do you guys drive over bridges in the winter? I can't seem to get a straight answer from anyone here. Everyone keeps saying "Slow down when you're about to cross a bridge." but I don't know what's "slow" enough? 60 mph? 50? 40?
It's funny.. seems like most of our bridges around here are always curved. It's almost like they want you to slide into the wall, heh.
It's funny.. seems like most of our bridges around here are always curved. It's almost like they want you to slide into the wall, heh.
But I'm actually being serious.
As you no doubt already know, most bridges freeze faster than the attached roadways, as the air under the bridge is usually colder than Mother Earth, under the roadways.
Curved bridges are definitely worse, as they require greater steering authority (traction) to negotiate than simply running in a straight line, with ZERO "lateral g-forces."
Do ALL of your slowing down before you enter the bridge--ESPECIALLY on a curved bridge. Hitting the brakes while on a curved, icy bridge is an excellent way to:
a) make the evening news, and
b) be home late for dinner--if you're lucky.
It might help you to imagine that the curved bridge is really a curved section, marked out by cones, on a frozen pond.
Can you "shoot the cones" at 60 mph, in a CURVE, on a frozen pond, and not hit any? Are you SURE? Then that's how fast you can do it on an icy bridge. Most people without Scandinavian last names (or French ones, like WRC-champion Sebastian Loeb) would not reliably be able to "drift" a pickup truck, at 60 mph, ON ICE, in a curve, and guarantee being able to stay within the cones. And instead of merely hitting a cone if you miscalculate, bridges usually have a nice drop-off on both sides....
So...less than 60mph, would be my suggestion.
As a general rule, consider dropping at least 10-20mph off of your winter road speed, for the bridge. MORE if it's a curved bridge. EVEN more if there's other vehicles around.
Oh--and be sure you "telegraph" your attention to slow down, for the bridge, to the people tailgating you, by tapping your brakes just enough to light your brake lights, before you actually start slowing down. They may be "texting" or playing with their Ipod, and not even aware that a bridge is coming up, and thus not ready when you actually do start slowing down, in advance of crossing the bridge.
Again, I seriously suggest you go no faster than you want to crash at. The ice is much slipperier than packed snow, which can be sometimes be negotiated at highway speeds, if no one is nearby, on a limited-access highway, and the road is straight.
I find it helpful to do "brake tests," occasionally, as the temps drop, to see how slippery it's getting, by braking carefully (when no vehicles are anywhere near me). Of course, that just tests the roadway--again, you must assume the bridge is frozen.
If you can find a frozen parking lot, to practice on, that may be beneficial to you, but scope one out NOW, so you know where the storm drains/potholes are, so you don't eff up your suspension, by hooking a storm drain while sliding sideways.
If you're lucky enough to find a flooded/then frozen parking lot, definitely spend some time finding out how useless your brakes are on pure ice, and how "tail happy" your truck may get when turning and braking at the same time.
Another general rule: Do your braking in while headed straight ahead.
Many road racers try not to combine braking and turning, as the combination can easily exceed the traction of their front contact patches. It is a worthwhile mental exercise to attempt to visualize this: if you're already using 100% of your available traction to stop, and you introduce additional demands on the available traction, by applying lateral g's (i.e., by turning) there can be only one result: a loss of traction. Most likely understeer (front wheels turned, but sliding straight ahead). NOT where you want to be on a curved, icy bridge.
Oh...and not to sound like a broken record, but most of my years of winter driving have been with studded rears, which do provide increased braking authority over non-studs, not to mention helping to curb oversteer (where the rear tries to pass the front). Not having studs would require even more caution, obviously. In fact, this winter, with my F-250 4x4, will be my first year without studs in 20-plus years.
Hope this helps. And to anyone who finds fault with my attempt to help the OP, perhaps I didn't explain myself properly, but I've been driving on the frozen highways in the Northcountry, near Canada, for 30 years. YMMV.
Big Six
#62
10-13-2009, 08:02 PM
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#63
10-13-2009, 08:17 PM
That's easy--go no faster than the speed at which you're willing to crash.
But I'm actually being serious.
As you no doubt already know, most bridges freeze faster than the attached roadways, as the air under the bridge is usually colder than Mother Earth, under the roadways.
Curved bridges are definitely worse, as they require greater steering authority (traction) to negotiate than simply running in a straight line, with ZERO "lateral g-forces."
Do ALL of your slowing down before you enter the bridge--ESPECIALLY on a curved bridge. Hitting the brakes while on a curved, icy bridge is an excellent way to:
a) make the evening news, and
b) be home late for dinner--if you're lucky.
It might help you to imagine that the curved bridge is really a curved section, marked out by cones, on a frozen pond.
Can you "shoot the cones" at 60 mph, in a CURVE, on a frozen pond, and not hit any? Are you SURE? Then that's how fast you can do it on an icy bridge. Most people without Scandinavian last names (or French ones, like WRC-champion Sebastian Loeb) would not reliably be able to "drift" a pickup truck, at 60 mph, ON ICE, in a curve, and guarantee being able to stay within the cones. And instead of merely hitting a cone if you miscalculate, bridges usually have a nice drop-off on both sides....
So...less than 60mph, would be my suggestion.
As a general rule, consider dropping at least 10-20mph off of your winter road speed, for the bridge. MORE if it's a curved bridge. EVEN more if there's other vehicles around.
Oh--and be sure you "telegraph" your attention to slow down, for the bridge, to the people tailgating you, by tapping your brakes just enough to light your brake lights, before you actually start slowing down. They may be "texting" or playing with their Ipod, and not even aware that a bridge is coming up, and thus not ready when you actually do start slowing down, in advance of crossing the bridge.
Again, I seriously suggest you go no faster than you want to crash at. The ice is much slipperier than packed snow, which can be sometimes be negotiated at highway speeds, if no one is nearby, on a limited-access highway, and the road is straight.
I find it helpful to do "brake tests," occasionally, as the temps drop, to see how slippery it's getting, by braking carefully (when no vehicles are anywhere near me). Of course, that just tests the roadway--again, you must assume the bridge is frozen.
If you can find a frozen parking lot, to practice on, that may be beneficial to you, but scope one out NOW, so you know where the storm drains/potholes are, so you don't eff up your suspension, by hooking a storm drain while sliding sideways.
If you're lucky enough to find a flooded/then frozen parking lot, definitely spend some time finding out how useless your brakes are on pure ice, and how "tail happy" your truck may get when turning and braking at the same time.
Another general rule: Do your braking in while headed straight ahead.
Many road racers try not to combine braking and turning, as the combination can easily exceed the traction of their front contact patches. It is a worthwhile mental exercise to attempt to visualize this: if you're already using 100% of your available traction to stop, and you introduce additional demands on the available traction, by applying lateral g's (i.e., by turning) there can be only one result: a loss of traction. Most likely understeer (front wheels turned, but sliding straight ahead). NOT where you want to be on a curved, icy bridge.
Oh...and not to sound like a broken record, but most of my years of winter driving have been with studded rears, which do provide increased braking authority over non-studs, not to mention helping to curb oversteer (where the rear tries to pass the front). Not having studs would require even more caution, obviously. In fact, this winter, with my F-250 4x4, will be my first year without studs in 20-plus years.
Hope this helps. And to anyone who finds fault with my attempt to help the OP, perhaps I didn't explain myself properly, but I've been driving on the frozen highways in the Northcountry, near Canada, for 30 years. YMMV.
Big Six
But I'm actually being serious.
As you no doubt already know, most bridges freeze faster than the attached roadways, as the air under the bridge is usually colder than Mother Earth, under the roadways.
Curved bridges are definitely worse, as they require greater steering authority (traction) to negotiate than simply running in a straight line, with ZERO "lateral g-forces."
Do ALL of your slowing down before you enter the bridge--ESPECIALLY on a curved bridge. Hitting the brakes while on a curved, icy bridge is an excellent way to:
a) make the evening news, and
b) be home late for dinner--if you're lucky.
It might help you to imagine that the curved bridge is really a curved section, marked out by cones, on a frozen pond.
Can you "shoot the cones" at 60 mph, in a CURVE, on a frozen pond, and not hit any? Are you SURE? Then that's how fast you can do it on an icy bridge. Most people without Scandinavian last names (or French ones, like WRC-champion Sebastian Loeb) would not reliably be able to "drift" a pickup truck, at 60 mph, ON ICE, in a curve, and guarantee being able to stay within the cones. And instead of merely hitting a cone if you miscalculate, bridges usually have a nice drop-off on both sides....
So...less than 60mph, would be my suggestion.
As a general rule, consider dropping at least 10-20mph off of your winter road speed, for the bridge. MORE if it's a curved bridge. EVEN more if there's other vehicles around.
Oh--and be sure you "telegraph" your attention to slow down, for the bridge, to the people tailgating you, by tapping your brakes just enough to light your brake lights, before you actually start slowing down. They may be "texting" or playing with their Ipod, and not even aware that a bridge is coming up, and thus not ready when you actually do start slowing down, in advance of crossing the bridge.
Again, I seriously suggest you go no faster than you want to crash at. The ice is much slipperier than packed snow, which can be sometimes be negotiated at highway speeds, if no one is nearby, on a limited-access highway, and the road is straight.
I find it helpful to do "brake tests," occasionally, as the temps drop, to see how slippery it's getting, by braking carefully (when no vehicles are anywhere near me). Of course, that just tests the roadway--again, you must assume the bridge is frozen.
If you can find a frozen parking lot, to practice on, that may be beneficial to you, but scope one out NOW, so you know where the storm drains/potholes are, so you don't eff up your suspension, by hooking a storm drain while sliding sideways.
If you're lucky enough to find a flooded/then frozen parking lot, definitely spend some time finding out how useless your brakes are on pure ice, and how "tail happy" your truck may get when turning and braking at the same time.
Another general rule: Do your braking in while headed straight ahead.
Many road racers try not to combine braking and turning, as the combination can easily exceed the traction of their front contact patches. It is a worthwhile mental exercise to attempt to visualize this: if you're already using 100% of your available traction to stop, and you introduce additional demands on the available traction, by applying lateral g's (i.e., by turning) there can be only one result: a loss of traction. Most likely understeer (front wheels turned, but sliding straight ahead). NOT where you want to be on a curved, icy bridge.
Oh...and not to sound like a broken record, but most of my years of winter driving have been with studded rears, which do provide increased braking authority over non-studs, not to mention helping to curb oversteer (where the rear tries to pass the front). Not having studs would require even more caution, obviously. In fact, this winter, with my F-250 4x4, will be my first year without studs in 20-plus years.
Hope this helps. And to anyone who finds fault with my attempt to help the OP, perhaps I didn't explain myself properly, but I've been driving on the frozen highways in the Northcountry, near Canada, for 30 years. YMMV.
Big Six
Seriously though that's a huge help. I really appreciate it. The more I learn about Ice and how to handle it I become even more nervous. I'm starting to wish I had a winter beater. lol
Hey, that's a really good way of putting it. Unfortnately for me I can't float over the bridges, my truck slows down too much.. But, I will try to float it as best as I can and not drive any faster than I'm willing to crach!
#64
10-13-2009, 08:20 PM
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#66
10-13-2009, 08:32 PM
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#68
10-13-2009, 08:54 PM
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#69
10-13-2009, 09:03 PM
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I don't get it....why does everyone want traction?
Winter is a fun time behind the wheel......well, ..until you're looking at a folded hood
But seriously.....Big Six, that is very sound advice all around.
I have been driving for over 25 years now, occasionally for a living.
Put a lot of "ice time" in and I have seen crazy things happen on ice...
I have seen cars/trucks driving down a straight highway, when all of a suddenly the wheels just up and let go of the road. I have seen cars/trucks & rigs crashing helplessly into each other, closing the highway for more than a day....
Not everyone makes it out!!!
There are obviously things that can be done to improve traction like winter/ice rated tires, studded tires or just extra weight in box, but I think that at the end of the day, we all want to be sitting in our favorite chair relaxing in our own way.
Slow it down and make it home alive!
Back to the op's Q.....I just use the weight of my box and/or 2 bags of sand that I put in when I take tools out in addition to winter tires.
The tires are now law in Quebec from December 15 until March 15
A smart move in my opinion.
Winter is a fun time behind the wheel......well, ..until you're looking at a folded hood
But seriously.....Big Six, that is very sound advice all around.
I have been driving for over 25 years now, occasionally for a living.
Put a lot of "ice time" in and I have seen crazy things happen on ice...
I have seen cars/trucks driving down a straight highway, when all of a suddenly the wheels just up and let go of the road. I have seen cars/trucks & rigs crashing helplessly into each other, closing the highway for more than a day....
Not everyone makes it out!!!
There are obviously things that can be done to improve traction like winter/ice rated tires, studded tires or just extra weight in box, but I think that at the end of the day, we all want to be sitting in our favorite chair relaxing in our own way.
Slow it down and make it home alive!
Back to the op's Q.....I just use the weight of my box and/or 2 bags of sand that I put in when I take tools out in addition to winter tires.
The tires are now law in Quebec from December 15 until March 15
A smart move in my opinion.
#70
10-13-2009, 09:13 PM
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yes, that is the exact trick I use all winter (which is when it would be nice to have a stickshift again, but oh well,) automatic or a stick shift, either way let your foot off the gas, and don't reliey on your antilock brakes to make you stop straight on the ice ever! The rear brakes in my opinion should be semi tight too. Not enough to lock up the rear tires. I will at slower speeds ingauge my truck in neutral to stop the small amount of momentum pushing me on the ice. If it is very slick it helps a little. There are many, many tricks I have learned for driving on ice. The MAJOR do's and don'ts of driving on pure and black ice. Wanna know how? Messing around on the ice in junk cars and trucks. When I would loose control I learned time after time how to regain it. That kinda thing. Just me I guess. Might make sence or not. Helps you not to panic when it happens for real!
#71
10-14-2009, 06:02 AM
i live in michigan it snows lol i also learnd how to drive with a rwd car with no rear breaks and a high idle. that was a fun year lol
i never had issues with traction (even with the 87 F-150) i am always more wouried a bought stopping or getting rear ended. i am not afraid to slow down and turn on my hazards of some one gets to close. i just drive 5-10mph under the posted limit and if the guy behind me gets upset i move over and laugh when i pass him later when he is in a ditch.
just do not drive like a tard and you should be fine i see more trucks end up in ditches then any thing elts
i never had issues with traction (even with the 87 F-150) i am always more wouried a bought stopping or getting rear ended. i am not afraid to slow down and turn on my hazards of some one gets to close. i just drive 5-10mph under the posted limit and if the guy behind me gets upset i move over and laugh when i pass him later when he is in a ditch.
just do not drive like a tard and you should be fine i see more trucks end up in ditches then any thing elts
#72
10-14-2009, 08:38 AM
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/Ricache
#73
10-14-2009, 08:50 AM
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That's easy--go no faster than the speed at which you're willing to crash.
But I'm actually being serious.
A bunch is deleted for space.....
I find it helpful to do "brake tests," occasionally, as the temps drop, to see how slippery it's getting, by braking carefully (when no vehicles are anywhere near me). Of course, that just tests the roadway--again, you must assume the bridge is frozen.
Hope this helps. And to anyone who finds fault with my attempt to help the OP, perhaps I didn't explain myself properly, but I've been driving on the frozen highways in the Northcountry, near Canada, for 30 years. YMMV.
Big Six
But I'm actually being serious.
A bunch is deleted for space.....
I find it helpful to do "brake tests," occasionally, as the temps drop, to see how slippery it's getting, by braking carefully (when no vehicles are anywhere near me). Of course, that just tests the roadway--again, you must assume the bridge is frozen.
Hope this helps. And to anyone who finds fault with my attempt to help the OP, perhaps I didn't explain myself properly, but I've been driving on the frozen highways in the Northcountry, near Canada, for 30 years. YMMV.
Big Six
He did take me several times to a vacant parking lot that was ice/snow packed. We lived in Omaha when this schooling took place. I had plenty of practice back then. Ask the Alaska truckers - you can be an expert on ice/snow until the next accident takes place.....and no one can master mother nature.
I have been very fortunate with snow and ice issues due to what my father taught me. I will call him this evening and thank him.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
/Ricache
#74
10-14-2009, 10:00 AM
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10-14-2009, 10:10 AM
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Sorry Ghost - thought you were another concerned citizen warning me about a speed trap...or I'd definitely have waved.
BTW - what is the universal "I'm with FTE" sign? I know bikers do the "low thumbs up".
/Ricache.
...or I'd definitely have waved. BTW - what is the universal "I'm with FTE" sign? I know bikers do the "low thumbs up".
/Ricache.