When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
This one I showed before and is in my unlisted videos on YouTube. November of 2015, towards the end of that format, a moderate day with a small pulley. No cable or other equipment changes, just temp and pulley. Quick enough ramp up to kick out, higher v due to cooler temp, but not the GPCM going nuts.
You are quite welcome, but looking back I now realize that I didn't get around to making my point. What was looming large in my mind never managed to make it to my typing fingers. I made the introduction, but never made the point.
And the point is that F605 (Ford Engineering #3C3U-10C359-AA) gray body with green cover soft start regulator that Ford introduced into the 6g alternators in 2003 for the 6.0 is not found in any L-N alternator you 6.0 guys are using. Yet, the F605 regulator is what all the OEM stock 6.0 alternators I've investigated were originally fitted with.
Look again at the prefix to that engineering number for the F605 regulator. 3 for 2003. C3 for Medium Truck (includes F250-550). U for Electrical and Fuel Handling Design Division. The dating and vehicle platform clues indicated by the stock voltage regulator's engineering number suggest to me that Ford, for the 2003 model year, in the Super Duty platform, had a reason for changing regulator excitation schemes for the 6.0 trucks with the updated glow plugs and GPCM, even while using the otherwise interchangeable 6G T Mount alternator chassis, with the otherwise identical control wiring harness shell shape and pin outs... I for Indicator, D for Dummy/No Connection, A for Voltage Sense.
The difference is solely in the voltage regulator, a culprit you have suspected all along... albeit more in terms of max voltage limitation, rather than what is explained below:
And that difference, in that voltage regulator, revolves around the excitation scheme with respect to the I and A circuits. In the F605, with the loss of A (voltage sense) the regulator goes into Vsec mode (secondary regulation) and turns on the indicator light. With the loss of I circuit (indicator light), the F605 regulator continues to function, and the light does not illuminate.
On the other hand, the F600 regulator used in the 1999-2003 7.3L 6G 110A alternators (that I had, and that I keep confusing this 6.0L forum with because nobody on the 7.3L forum is talking about the L-N so I have to head one flight upstairs for any discussion), identified by Ford Engineering #F8WU-10C359-AB, named when the previous century's Ford engineering numerology was in use, where F8 is 1998, and where W was the Mercury Cougar platform at the time, with U remaining the Electrical and Fuel Handling Design Division... a regulator that is also offered in an upgraded version called the F600HD, which sports a "heavy duty" power device, and is most likely what Prestolite blueprints for their R007520270S voltage regulator that ships with the "202" version of L-N alternator that we are talking about here... (way too long of a sentence)...
Anyway, THAT regulator, the F600, and the heavier duty F600HD and Prestolite R007520270S, shuts down flat with the loss of A or I. There is no soft start on the F600 equivalents either, like there is on the F605 that ships with the OEM alternators for the 6.0L.
Soft Start is where the regulator turns on earlier, by using frequency detection, even though the alternator's rpm isn't high enough yet to produce much current. The soft start frequency detection built into the F605's regulator permits the regulator to provide a "pre-excitation duty cycle", because it wakes up at lower rpm.
The point is... in the stock alternators for the 6.0L engine, Ford specifically specified a different voltage regulator than that which was specified for the otherwise similar 6G alternator and wiring of the previous engine in the same vehicle platform.
The question is... Are the differences in Vsec secondary regulation and soft start turn on pre excitation, even at lower RPMs, and RPMS below the threshold of the alternator's ability to produce meaningful current... are these voltage regulation design differences partly responsible for the oscillation that some 6.0L report during the glow plug cycle period?
And does the fact that the 7.3L shipped with an OEM voltage regulator that functionally matches what Prestolite fits into the L-N AViT1602002 alternators explain why none of the 7.3L guys and gals are reporting voltage oscillations during their glow plug cycle?
Leece Neville doesn't offer the soft start F605 regulator in the AVi160T series. They only offer an F600HD equivalent, and an entirely different PCM controlled voltage regulator for 2008 up. The 2003-2007 owners are forced to select the L-N alternator with the same voltage regulator as what was OEM stock for 1999-2003.
Earlier I said that if I were to try a different regulator, I would try an F600HD... but I selfishly never finished typing what I was thinking in my head on behalf of 6.0L folks... getting distracted once again about what I would do with my truck. So, if I were YOU, and I had a 6.0L, and was inclined to experiment with a different voltage regulator, I would be tempted to try, at my own risk, and outside of the warranty period, an F605 grey/green Soft Start I-D-A regulator and see what happens. Apart from the differences already discussed, the F600 and F605 regulators are otherwise interchangeable. And the F605 is what shipped in a 6.0L alternator in the first place.
Below is a technical bulletin from Transpo, the Shanghai based company that manufactures all parts for WAI Global, the largest alternator component distributer in the world, who claims to be a US company out of Florida, but that is only the sales/distribution office. The real corporate headquarters is also in the Pudong free trade zone province of Shanghai.
So Does the WAI version alternator have the correct regulator to prevent these voltage fluctuations?
So Does the WAI version alternator have the correct regulator to prevent these voltage fluctuations?
Which WAI version? The knock off LN often found on eBay? The "high amp" replica LN, advertised to produce 350a, sold at Nations? An authentic rebuilt genuine Prestolite LN, using parts supplied by WAI?
It's hard to know how to answer this question, and I imagine that it is equally hard to know how to ask it more specifically, because generally speaking, WAI is not a brand of completed alternators available to consumers like Remy or Bosch or BBB Industries, etc. Rather, WAI is perhaps the largest manufacturer of alternator parts in the world, whose main business is supplying companies who manufacture and re-manufacture alternators.
Mine runs 13.9-14.2 all the time with zero issues since I installed it. The difference you guys are seeing may be because of not having installed the full battery cable upgrade that beefs up the charging system to allow the bigger alternator to function as intended.
OBD port via TorquePro or SCT X4. I want to check the voltage at the batteries and alternator and see if there is a difference I’m not seeing in the cab.
I bought the FICMRepair cable kit that has bigger cables from the alternator to passenger battery then a positive cable between the two batteries and two big grounds to the frame and engine.
I'm familiar with the setup, that's not a complete cable upgrade. There are people who have bought both the alternator and cabling from FICMRepair who have the issue. But you have other cabling going on there too.
The OBD port typically under reports voltage compared the alt or batts for many monitors so it will be interesting to see what you have.
Which WAI version? The knock off LN often found on eBay? The "high amp" replica LN, advertised to produce 350a, sold at Nations? An authentic rebuilt genuine Prestolite LN, using parts supplied by WAI?
It's hard to know how to answer this question, and I imagine that it is equally hard to know how to ask it more specifically, because generally speaking, WAI is not a brand of completed alternators available to consumers like Remy or Bosch or BBB Industries, etc. Rather, WAI is perhaps the largest manufacturer of alternator parts in the world, whose main business is supplying companies who manufacture and re-manufacture alternators.
The most accurate answer is I don't know, and have no way of knowing.
The reason why, even after considering the most accurate answer, I still suggest the short answer, is as follows:
WAI Global, is just that. Global. This is a Chinese conglomerate that has the entire rotating electrical industry by the (substitute twin spheres that rotate here).
WAI owns Transpo, the leading mfr of regulators. WAI also owns Lester, the catalog company that has been around since the 1930's that cataloged the build recipe of all rotating electrical products across all automotive manufacturers and suppliers.
Essentially, every alternator designed is issued a Lester number, that, in consultation with input from industry engineers and experts, describes the alternator's recipe, including the characteristics of the voltage regulator.
The LN AVI160T2002-2 alternator under discussion in this thread was assigned a Lester number of 7341N. Now, keep in mind, the AVI160T2002-2 is also listed as REPLACING other Lester numbers, including but not limited to Lester numbers 8306, 8445, 8476, 8478, 8479, among others, where the preceding list represents only 6.0L applications. Each of these Lester numbers has a corresponding Ford Engineering number, as well as a Ford Service Part number, along with a Motorcraft Part number. This detail is important, and we'll pick it up again later on.
In the meantime, let's focus solely on the Lester number for the 7341N. This is what WAI (who now owns the Lester Catalog service) calls their knock off of Prestolite's (also a Chinese company by the way) Leece Neville 230 amp alternator, the AVI160T2002-2. Let's pause a minute here to be reminded that there are several versions of this alternator (ie, the 2002-1 and the 2002-3), but we are only talking about the 2002-2, because that is specifically what Leece Neville states, in an asterisked footnote, that owners of 6.0L trucks and vans should use in their application.
"Note: All vehicles using 6.0L Ford diesel engines use AVI160T2002-2"
So since that is Lester recipe 7341N, let's look at what the voltage regulator is supposed to be. No surprise there, as it is the Prestolite R007520270S. That's the proper regulator for the 2002-2. And that regulator crosses to the Transpo (also owned by WAI) F600HD. But it also crosses to the F600. The difference between the F600 and the F600HD is that the latter is considered a "heavy duty power device", according to Transpo.
Of interest, is that the Ford voltage regulator engineering number F8WU-10C359-AB is listed, unchanged, without even a revision letter modification in the suffix, for both the F600 and the F600HD. And, while we are at it, the Ford engineering numbers for the applicable alternators that are fitted with either regulator are the same, including all revision numbers in that family. This is important, and will tie in with the previous statement of importance in a couple of paragraphs to follow.
Your ultimate question relates to whether or not the soft start F605 regulator is in the WAI knock off version of the LN 230a. It shouldn't be, but this is where the two important observations made earlier come together and get interesting...
To obtain ANY information about the characteristics of what voltage regulator either came with our original alternators, or comes with our chosen replacement alternators, we are at the mercy of the information available to us as published by suppliers in the aftermarket, because Ford doesn't publish their detailed engineering specs for us to openly peruse.
And the most dominant rotating electrical parts supplier, worldwide, is WAI Global, who owns the principal rotating electrical industry reference bible, the Lester Catalog. WAI also happens to be the most prolific publisher of information, that, due to the broad market of rebuilders they are trying to reach, ends up becoming available to any ardent searcher online.
So when this resource of information is ever in conflict, it can certainly skew any assumptions about what's inside the case of any given alternator. And in this post I have already shown where too different regulators, with different components on board (one heavy duty, one not) are listed as having the same Ford engineering number. Usually, if Ford engineers a change, either in product, or even in supplier, a revision letter is assigned to denote the change.
It could be that both the F600 and the F600HD meet the specifications of F8WU-10C359-AB, and Ford never developed a so called "heavy duty" revision of that specification, whereas Prestolite did. Hence there is no other Ford number available to assign the difference. That is speculation that is acceptable to me.
However, it gets far trickier when it comes to the 2003 and up Ford engineering numbers for the entire alternators, and the Lester recipe numbers assigned to those alternators. Here I have seen some published sources identify the F605 green cover regulator as being used, and other published sources suggesting that the F600 regulator is used. I do not know how to reconcile the difference.
In planning this post, I was going to go into greater detail, alternator by alternator, for the half dozen 6.0L Lester numbers I listed earlier above, but this post grew too long in the tooth as it is, and at the end of the day, I ultimately don't think it matters what Ford did, and here is why:
Leece Neville designed and built the AVI160T2002-2 series alternator originally, and spec'd the Prestolite regulator R007520270S. This recipe was assigned (by WAI, through their ownership of Lester) a catalog number of 7341. WAI's knock off of that alternator will more than likely follow Leece Neville's original build sheet, which means that it will contain the equivalent of the R007520270S, which Transp (also owned by WAI) calls an F600HD, which has no separate Ford engineering number different from the less heavy duty F600, and has no correlation at all with the soft start regulator F605.
Again, this is all conjecture. I have no true way of knowing, without a plane ticket to China and a factory tour to see what they are doing over there. Accepting donations, btw, cause the curiosity of why some of you 6.0L guys are reporting issues with this alternator is killing me too. Rejecting heat is a big factor in alternator survival, and there is no other T mount, internal fan, internal regulator alternator on the planet that has a 160mm stator, which means bigger fans, bigger paddles on the fan, bigger case, bigger vents in the case... and the output graph of this LN is staggeringly steep, producing 100 amps at idle. It really is a shame to condemn this alternator, and I continue to think about a solution to this reported problem that I don't have.
Thanks for the background Y2KW57. Always good information in your posts.
Originally Posted by SmackDaddy
OBD port via TorquePro or SCT X4. I want to check the voltage at the batteries and alternator and see if there is a difference I’m not seeing in the cab.
I bought the FICMRepair cable kit that has bigger cables from the alternator to passenger battery then a positive cable between the two batteries and two big grounds to the frame and engine.
I have sufficient wiring between the alternator and batteries to handle the full output from the alternator. Considering the fluctuations happen at idle though I don't know exactly what role the cabling would play.
I have found a method to avoid the fluctuations for me and my AGM batteries. With the headlights on I wait for not only the glow plugs to finish but the injectors to stop clacking and give it a 10 second count after that. in the 5 starts I have done this it seems to cause enough draw/drain on the batteries to avoid the fluctuations and it's not a lot of extra time out of my day.
01-29-2018, 09:05 PM
