To Excursion..or not to Excursion? (School me on diesel engines)
#46
11-05-2013, 06:21 PM
I should have taken my own advice and reread the hole thread.
I missed the post about russian roulette.
#48
11-05-2013, 07:22 PM
#49
11-05-2013, 08:07 PM
You must be psychic, while I'm not 6'7 or 300lbs I am a Ford tech with 20 years under my belt. And I love the 6.0, it paid off my mortgage. We feel the same way about experts.
#50
11-05-2013, 09:25 PM
Usually we hit those right away.
I used to make fun of the "six-leaker" engines, but it was in good fun. As I got to know more about the engine, and made friends at the drag strip with guys who run the 6.0, I got to like the engine.
But I also know what I'm getting into.
Stewart
#51
11-05-2013, 09:49 PM
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in case you cant read, MANY people have repeatedly said to research both engines in their forums and use that to make an informed decision based on his needs.
if you want a racetruck, with an incredibly strong transmission ( on average, stronger than the allison for aftermarket power
) slightly better fuel economy (extra gear) the ability to upgrade power levels much easier and cheaper, imo the best sounding straight piped diesel ever
and loads of power, did i say that? then the 6.0 is good BUT it does require attention.
the 7.3 ON AVERAGE is more reliable but can have serious failures like any engine and previous neglect often doesnt show up until its too late. finding a low mileage 7.3 is RARER and expensive. finding a high mileage, yes the engine can go for a million miles if treated right, but what about the body? suspension? frame? etc. its transmission is generally weaker and may fail around 200,000 or it may go for a long time.
when you think about it, the cost of a bulletproofing, even done by some shops, isnt very much more than a rebuilt transmission, if done yourself its way cheaper!
heres a list of all the common issues with the 6.0 (that i can think of off the top of my head, inform me if i miss anything)
1 ficm, this usually fails due to a weak alternator or batteries, its essentially an amplifier and when it isnt fed proper 12+ Volts it needs to draw more current to make up its necessary wattage. amperage = HEAT. heat = fried electronics. these can fail but with an inexpensive rebuild it will almost never fail again. if caught on time most can re-solder the connections themselves for next to nothing and run!
2 turbo sticking vanes. this is a DIESEL from a MEDIUM DUTY international truck, it is meant to work. things like babying it for fuel economy, short trips, excessive coal rolling, sitting for extended times in some instances can or will form rust or soot around the vanes preventing it from moving.
*if you drive like this you can overboost and ruin your engine*
be sure to drive it hard, get it hot and WORK it every now and then
3 egr valve and cooler, the valve is easy to clean yourself in 10 minutes, 03-04.5 egr coolers are nearly bulletproof. the rest may be problematic. if you neglect your coolant or your oil cooler you will destroy the egr cooler and can cause major engine damage. a bad oil cooler will repeatedly cause egr failures if not replaced as coolant is supplied from the oil cooler, no coolant = cracked cooler. this can happen before the oil cooler fails. it can also fail if your coolant levels are low, and yes it does occasionally die on its own. replace with a bulletproof or delete for ease.
*the egr recirculating soot back into the engine does cause other issues, in 05+ exhaust backpressure inferred models ( engine pcm uses exhaust bps to determine how much boost to make) the soot can cause this sensor to fail resulting in underboost safe mode being enabled. the soot can also plug up air intake #2 sensor.
4 oil cooler. install a coolant filter. end of story (+/- $120)
the cooler is too fine and acts as a filter which can plug and eventually crack (oil in coolant is very bad, so is coolant in oil
) monitor coolant vs oil temps and its easy to prevent. do a coolant flush as part of a regular maintenance schedule. or you can use a silicate free coolant as much of this debris is silicate dropout. the silicates can "flash boil" inside the egr cooler when really hot and plug the oil cooler. another reason to delete egr.
5 high pressure oil system, (stc fitting, pump, and standpipes) 03-04.5 are weaker high pressure oil pumps but have a bulletproof option where newer doesnt.
the stc fitting on the back of some style pumps can come loose causing no oil no start conditions, an updated part fixes this for cheap (minus labour diy isnt very hard just time consuming) i believe this is only on certain years but forget.
04.5+ use standpipes (and "dummy plugs") that the o-ring can fail causing no start. a relatively cheap updated part fixes this and isnt very hard to get to.
6 everyones favourite, the DAILY BLOWN HEADGASKETS
if you ever research the vt365 (6.0 in international language) you will realize that they first off dont use any egr or emissions systems. they also dont tune them and RARELY BLOW HEADGASKETS!!
this engine is designed with 6 bolts surrounding each cylinder instead of the typical 8. under excessive cylinder pressures (people who tune them too hard stock), under egr failure where coolant gets ingested, at times when towing very heavy (again egr increases coolant temperatures reducing engine cooling), when turbo vanes stick and overboost or occasionally bad luck, the gaskets *can* blow out. this isnt as common as "everyone" thinks.
i installed head studs the "risky hackjob way" by pulling one bolt at a time and replacing it with a stud and torque, following the sequence. 40,000+KM trouble free on a race tune with a lead foot.
7 injectors, this one is simple. dont overextend oil changes, use a lubricity additive and ensure you are getting proper fuel pressure.
8 here is a killer!!
the plastic intercooler pipe can crack, i cracked mine with my palm putting it on in -20 and epoxied the crack then a couple thousand km later... KABOOM
ok its not really that bad but it did suck! and let me tell you 28-30 psi makes a LOUD boom! surprised it lasted that long.
I will take this time to point out a very important fact for the 6.0 early on. this engine is DRASTICALLY different than any other diesels at the time it came out. if you neglect batteries, coolant, oil etc in other diesels it never matters. this engine will bite back if neglected. oil is directly used to fire the injectors so neglect can ruin the injectors, oil system, and cause no starts.
this engine requires many parts to work together and it wasnt understood that things like a plugging up oil cooler can cause egr failure. they replace the egr and boom it fails again and again, maybe even destroying the engine. they dont know why and people think the engine is junk when it was really just an oil cooler!
the oil system can be very hard to diagnose if untrained and lead to repeat failures due to misdiagnosis.
this engine is very sensor reliant which makes diagnosis (if skilled) much easier, but confuses most technicians.
so yes there are a handful (maybe a mutants # of fingers) of issues but most arent hard to solve, many can be monitored and the stigma against these engines isnt as bad as many will make it out to be. it has weaknesses and is NOT an ideal engine for many people. you can get unlucky and find a moneypit but hopefully, and with some research it should become the good kind of moneypit!
either way the members here are INVALUABLE! we have senior master ford technicians who help out, diy gurus, mechanics, hotrodders, stock everything'ers, people who give up for nothing and some people just crazy enough to try out anything!
good luck and happy hunting, either way you will love what you get.
that said it does suck to need to be this careful, i often daydream of making the power i do (and will in the future addiction levels) on a simple mechanical injection diesel for pure reliability but its just not feasible for me
if you want a racetruck, with an incredibly strong transmission ( on average, stronger than the allison for aftermarket power
) slightly better fuel economy (extra gear) the ability to upgrade power levels much easier and cheaper, imo the best sounding straight piped diesel ever and loads of power, did i say that? then the 6.0 is good BUT it does require attention. the 7.3 ON AVERAGE is more reliable but can have serious failures like any engine and previous neglect often doesnt show up until its too late. finding a low mileage 7.3 is RARER and expensive. finding a high mileage, yes the engine can go for a million miles if treated right, but what about the body? suspension? frame? etc. its transmission is generally weaker and may fail around 200,000 or it may go for a long time.
when you think about it, the cost of a bulletproofing, even done by some shops, isnt very much more than a rebuilt transmission, if done yourself its way cheaper!
heres a list of all the common issues with the 6.0 (that i can think of off the top of my head, inform me if i miss anything)
1 ficm, this usually fails due to a weak alternator or batteries, its essentially an amplifier and when it isnt fed proper 12+ Volts it needs to draw more current to make up its necessary wattage. amperage = HEAT. heat = fried electronics. these can fail but with an inexpensive rebuild it will almost never fail again. if caught on time most can re-solder the connections themselves for next to nothing and run!
2 turbo sticking vanes. this is a DIESEL from a MEDIUM DUTY international truck, it is meant to work. things like babying it for fuel economy, short trips, excessive coal rolling, sitting for extended times in some instances can or will form rust or soot around the vanes preventing it from moving.
*if you drive like this you can overboost and ruin your engine*
be sure to drive it hard, get it hot and WORK it every now and then
3 egr valve and cooler, the valve is easy to clean yourself in 10 minutes, 03-04.5 egr coolers are nearly bulletproof. the rest may be problematic. if you neglect your coolant or your oil cooler you will destroy the egr cooler and can cause major engine damage. a bad oil cooler will repeatedly cause egr failures if not replaced as coolant is supplied from the oil cooler, no coolant = cracked cooler. this can happen before the oil cooler fails. it can also fail if your coolant levels are low, and yes it does occasionally die on its own. replace with a bulletproof or delete for ease.
*the egr recirculating soot back into the engine does cause other issues, in 05+ exhaust backpressure inferred models ( engine pcm uses exhaust bps to determine how much boost to make) the soot can cause this sensor to fail resulting in underboost safe mode being enabled. the soot can also plug up air intake #2 sensor.
4 oil cooler. install a coolant filter. end of story (+/- $120)
the cooler is too fine and acts as a filter which can plug and eventually crack (oil in coolant is very bad, so is coolant in oil
) monitor coolant vs oil temps and its easy to prevent. do a coolant flush as part of a regular maintenance schedule. or you can use a silicate free coolant as much of this debris is silicate dropout. the silicates can "flash boil" inside the egr cooler when really hot and plug the oil cooler. another reason to delete egr.5 high pressure oil system, (stc fitting, pump, and standpipes) 03-04.5 are weaker high pressure oil pumps but have a bulletproof option where newer doesnt.
the stc fitting on the back of some style pumps can come loose causing no oil no start conditions, an updated part fixes this for cheap (minus labour diy isnt very hard just time consuming) i believe this is only on certain years but forget.
04.5+ use standpipes (and "dummy plugs") that the o-ring can fail causing no start. a relatively cheap updated part fixes this and isnt very hard to get to.
6 everyones favourite, the DAILY BLOWN HEADGASKETS
if you ever research the vt365 (6.0 in international language) you will realize that they first off dont use any egr or emissions systems. they also dont tune them and RARELY BLOW HEADGASKETS!!
this engine is designed with 6 bolts surrounding each cylinder instead of the typical 8. under excessive cylinder pressures (people who tune them too hard stock), under egr failure where coolant gets ingested, at times when towing very heavy (again egr increases coolant temperatures reducing engine cooling), when turbo vanes stick and overboost or occasionally bad luck, the gaskets *can* blow out. this isnt as common as "everyone" thinks.
i installed head studs the "risky hackjob way" by pulling one bolt at a time and replacing it with a stud and torque, following the sequence. 40,000+KM trouble free on a race tune with a lead foot.
7 injectors, this one is simple. dont overextend oil changes, use a lubricity additive and ensure you are getting proper fuel pressure.
8 here is a killer!!
the plastic intercooler pipe can crack, i cracked mine with my palm putting it on in -20 and epoxied the crack then a couple thousand km later... KABOOM
ok its not really that bad but it did suck! and let me tell you 28-30 psi makes a LOUD boom! surprised it lasted that long.
I will take this time to point out a very important fact for the 6.0 early on. this engine is DRASTICALLY different than any other diesels at the time it came out. if you neglect batteries, coolant, oil etc in other diesels it never matters. this engine will bite back if neglected. oil is directly used to fire the injectors so neglect can ruin the injectors, oil system, and cause no starts.
this engine requires many parts to work together and it wasnt understood that things like a plugging up oil cooler can cause egr failure. they replace the egr and boom it fails again and again, maybe even destroying the engine. they dont know why and people think the engine is junk when it was really just an oil cooler!
the oil system can be very hard to diagnose if untrained and lead to repeat failures due to misdiagnosis.
this engine is very sensor reliant which makes diagnosis (if skilled) much easier, but confuses most technicians.
so yes there are a handful (maybe a mutants # of fingers
) of issues but most arent hard to solve, many can be monitored and the stigma against these engines isnt as bad as many will make it out to be. it has weaknesses and is NOT an ideal engine for many people. you can get unlucky and find a moneypit but hopefully, and with some research it should become the good kind of moneypit!either way the members here are INVALUABLE! we have senior master ford technicians who help out, diy gurus, mechanics, hotrodders, stock everything'ers, people who give up for nothing and some people just crazy enough to try out anything!
good luck and happy hunting, either way you will love what you get.that said it does suck to need to be this careful, i often daydream of making the power i do (and will in the future addiction levels) on a simple mechanical injection diesel for pure reliability but its just not feasible for me
#52
11-05-2013, 10:03 PM
I'm going to be a knit and say the 6.0 wasn't some vast leap forward ("DRASTICALLY different") in engine tech. The HEUI (hydraulically actuated electronic unit injection) based engine had been around in the IHC built 1st gen 7.3l PSD's since 94.5'.
The turbo is where they did some fairly interesting work, but I digress.
What the 6.0 was - was Ford's first shot at building it's own engine. 05' was an interesting year to be a Ford truck owner fer shure.
The turbo is where they did some fairly interesting work, but I digress.
What the 6.0 was - was Ford's first shot at building it's own engine. 05' was an interesting year to be a Ford truck owner fer shure.
#53
11-05-2013, 10:11 PM
Ford did not build the 6.0L PSD. International (Navistar) was still building the Power Stroke diesel for Ford.
Ford didn't design and build their own diesel engine until the 6.7 came out.
Stewart
Ford didn't design and build their own diesel engine until the 6.7 came out.
Stewart
#58
11-06-2013, 10:19 AM
If only there were someone who has and swore by a 7.3 but just recently purchased a 6.0 and could give you personal experience with both engines....
I'll try to give you the good and bad:
7.3 is a tank. It's an established, well known, beloved engine. There are plenty out there with 300k+ miles on them going strong.
It's not without it's issues, however, just like any and every other engine out there.
It's loud. "Shut it off in the drive-thru" loud.
It's a tank. A big, slow, RELIABLE tank.
6.0
If you buy a 6.0, you're playing russian roulette. This truck WILL break down on you. Period. Unless you buy it and then bullet proof it and then replace every sensor and every pigtail, you're going to have a problem somewhere down the road. Hopefully it's at a place convenient and it's not so big of a problem where the truck won't run or start. There's a lot of nitnoid, nickel and dime fixing that goes with the 6.0.
I've had mine since April and I've willingly replaced a lot of things in it because I wanted the piece of mind and power. I've also HAD to replace two sensors and two pigtails (which are separate from the sensors I've replaced) due to the truck running like a bag of poop. Sure this could happen to any vehicle with over 100k on the clock.
The good thing is that most of the problems are known. The internet mechanics here are plentiful and ridiculously helpful. Typically you can go on here and say "my truck's doing x,y,z" and you'll have an accurate answer within 10 minutes. If you hang out over on the 6.0 subforum, you'll see a pattern. Same questions with the same answers over and over again. I spend time over there even when my truck's running great (which, btw is 95% of the time) just so I can be educated on what to look for if the 'ol girl starts running rough.
If you put tunes on your 6.0 and don't go nuts with lift kits or tires, you can see upwards of 23-25 mpg on the highway (depending on your ability to stay off the skinny pedal once said tunes are applied), and 120 extra horses to help your "giddy up".
True story: I have two friends that both have 7.3s that have driven my SRL tuned 6.0 and got out saying "dayum".
Also true story: last week one of those friends was in my truck as we went on a 20 mile trip. The VGT pigtail disintegrated and couldn't turn the turbo on. That was a painful 20 mile trip. He remarked "yeah, that's why I have a 7.3" I wanted to punch him the face, but I suppose the truth hurts.
I'll try to give you the good and bad:
7.3 is a tank. It's an established, well known, beloved engine. There are plenty out there with 300k+ miles on them going strong.
It's not without it's issues, however, just like any and every other engine out there.
It's loud. "Shut it off in the drive-thru" loud.
It's a tank. A big, slow, RELIABLE tank.
6.0
If you buy a 6.0, you're playing russian roulette. This truck WILL break down on you. Period. Unless you buy it and then bullet proof it and then replace every sensor and every pigtail, you're going to have a problem somewhere down the road. Hopefully it's at a place convenient and it's not so big of a problem where the truck won't run or start. There's a lot of nitnoid, nickel and dime fixing that goes with the 6.0.
I've had mine since April and I've willingly replaced a lot of things in it because I wanted the piece of mind and power. I've also HAD to replace two sensors and two pigtails (which are separate from the sensors I've replaced) due to the truck running like a bag of poop. Sure this could happen to any vehicle with over 100k on the clock.
The good thing is that most of the problems are known. The internet mechanics here are plentiful and ridiculously helpful. Typically you can go on here and say "my truck's doing x,y,z" and you'll have an accurate answer within 10 minutes. If you hang out over on the 6.0 subforum, you'll see a pattern. Same questions with the same answers over and over again. I spend time over there even when my truck's running great (which, btw is 95% of the time) just so I can be educated on what to look for if the 'ol girl starts running rough.
If you put tunes on your 6.0 and don't go nuts with lift kits or tires, you can see upwards of 23-25 mpg on the highway (depending on your ability to stay off the skinny pedal once said tunes are applied), and 120 extra horses to help your "giddy up".
True story: I have two friends that both have 7.3s that have driven my SRL tuned 6.0 and got out saying "dayum".
Also true story: last week one of those friends was in my truck as we went on a 20 mile trip. The VGT pigtail disintegrated and couldn't turn the turbo on. That was a painful 20 mile trip. He remarked "yeah, that's why I have a 7.3" I wanted to punch him the face, but I suppose the truth hurts.
She got the look, her best friend sitting in the second row saw it, got wide eyed, and immediately changed the subject saving her best friend from walking in the cold winter rain.
Back on topic....
I'm the person that both Stewart and HokieHiVPI have been referring to.
I currently own a 2001 7.3 Excursion purchased new August 27th, 2001. I also own a 2005 6.0 Excursion purchased October 11th. 2013.
After driving my 7.3 Excursion for 12 years and 391K, I can tell what many of the other before me have said:
It's the "energizer battery" of diesel engines. It's a built, proven, reliable engine that just keeps going and going. The only times my 7.3 left me on the side of the road was for:
-Lost the tensioner pulley coming back from fishing summer 2012
-The lower radiator hose split leaking all of my expensive ELC out fall 2013
-Blew a powersteering hose (no powersteering = no brakes) Spring 2012
Whatever other little nuisances, the truck warned me about and I had time to plan and fix. Even then, most of them weren't a big deal.
As far as maintenance, the 7.3 doesn't require alot of attention.
-Change the oil every 5K
-Flush the trans every 30K
-Change the fuel filters every 15K
Performing these three tasks religiously left with a truck that started with 50 miles and has had no catastrophic engine failures even at 391K.
Driving a 7.3 can be and is fun, but it's a slug until you tune or program it. It'll tow whatever you want it to and go wherever you want it to without issue or hesitation.
Like many others, I was ignorant of the 6.0, chose to stay that way as a diehard 7.3 fan. I also bashed the 6.0 in it's early days with all the issues; That was all true untill I started reading and educating myself about the 6.0. After reading about it and finally owning one, I find that the 6.0 (though needy at times) is a far superior engine than a 7.3.
Simply becuase:
-You get the towing technology that Ford developed that you don't have in the 7.3/4R100 combo.
-The 6.0 has an air management system that allows for precise power no matter what you're doing. This allows for better power and fuel economy.
-The EVRT or VGT (however you want to put it) allows the engine to spool and respond better when either towing or just driving around.
-The Torqshift 5R110 is a bulletproof transmission that was built and designed to work and not break a sweat. When mated with the 6.0 you have a well built towing or even daily driver that won't let you down.
Maintenance wise on a 6.0, there are a few things to consider. Per HokieHiVPI you are indeed playing Russian Roulette and you pay to play. However, this shouldn't worry you...becuase per HokieHiVPI and Kornfanjoe you have FTE and the issues as well as the solutions to these issues are known.
When it comes to the 6.0 and maintenance, you have to remember one rule:
"Make sure your fluids, filters, and fuel are clean." -That's it
The 6.0 is built to tight tolerances, so you'll have to make sure you keep up on maintenance and only use motorcraft filters and parts on the truck. I found chinese fuel filters on my '05 which perfectly explained the sluggish performance. As soon as I replaced them with motorcraft filters, it was like I had a brand new truck.
Just one example of why maintenance is important on the 6.0....
Without FTE I wouldn't have known what to look for and my buying as well as owning experience would've been different....
When I bought my 2005 Excursion, I drove from Houston to Amarillo (9-10 hour drive) to go pick it up as it was in Texas and I didn't want to have to go out of state. I came both prepared to drive home with it, but at the same time walk away if necessary. I showed up with:
-My AE
-A pressure gauge to test the headgaskets/cooling system
-And of course my Scangauge 2
I hooked up the AE and they asked what it was and more importantly, what I was doing. When I explained what the AE did and demonstrated firm knowledge on the 6.0 the look on their face was priceless....
Other than corroded terminals and weak batteries, the truck was puking coolant on the test drive. After monitoring the ECT and EOT deltas and hooking up a gauge to the degas bottle, I found that the truck had a clogged oil cooler and leaking EGR cooler which they gave me $1500 off for.
I initially wanted to just have the EGR deleted and the oil cooler replaced, but just wanted peace of mind and to drive the truck. I also didn't want an issue to sneak up on me and catch me at a bad time....so to that end, I had Powerstroke Enginuities go through the engine and update everything:
-Studs
-EGR Delete
-New upgraded OEM oil cooler
-Dummy Plugs and Stand Pipes
-Blue Fuel Spring
-Coolant Flush with VC-9
-New Rotella ELC
-Sinister Coolant Filter
-New OEM Ford Head Gaskets
-New O-rings for all injectors
-New Rocker box gaskets
-New intake manifold gasket set
-New Serpentine Belt
-Flo-Pro 4 inch turbo back exhaust
-New Degas bottle (cracked as they were giving me the truck back)
-Cleaned turbo and intake manifold while they had the engine apart.
This all cost me $4K, but my 6.0 runs and drives awesome! (not that it didn't before
)Do you have to go as far as I did when buying a 6.0?
No you don't....
I went this far becuase I had a bad oil cooler and EGR cooler. Had the truck been perfectly healthy, I would've installed a coolant filter, changed the fluids and filters, and just driven the truck stock.
As far as headgaskets, studs and their necessity even tuned, here's a good thread:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...ing-studs.html
You can buy yourself a healthy 6.0, build a good foundation and just slowly build as things come up. Even if you find one that needs a new oil and EGR cooler and have some coin to spend, you can come out ahead like HokieHiVPI did.
As far as driving a 6.0.....it's AWESOME!
The 6.0 is the viagra of diesel engines, you have a huge grin on your face and feel awesome when behind the wheel. You may have to go see a doctor after 4 hours of driving though You can't go wrong with the power and performance of a 6.0. Bone stock mine delivered 18.3 mpg coming back from Amarillo and had a good amount of power to it. The 6.0 does everything the 7.3 does, just with more power and effieciency. It may need some love every now and again, but the 6.0 is nothing to be afraid of
The bottom line is that no matter if you get a 7.3 or 6.0, you're getting an awesome truck that will serve you well. My personal preference, however, is towards the 6.0 espcially one with the 2005 engine. It's newer and has a few bells and whistles that the older trucks don't have. The 6.0 is also a more advanced engine that has good potential and power provided you take good care of it.
Myself, Living Large, HokieHiVPI, and several others have purchased a 6.0 and don't regret it! So go forth and purchase a 6.0 Excursion without fear
