6.7 Diesel or 6.2 Gas?
#16
02-27-2012, 06:21 PM
I really appreciate the answers...here is where I am currently.
Before finding this site I had my mind made up that I was just going to get the F150 with the Ecoboost and just not get a large trailer later when we decide to get one. One day I said to the wife, lets go look at trailers just to get an idea of what we would want to have. She immediately went to a really expensive large trailer. So in my mind I thought...well if this is what we will end up with there is no way to tow this with anything else but a diesel.
I currently only have a 3200 lb. boat to tow...and really my Sequoia does tow that. It does struggle going up hills just towing the boat so I do understand the speed up to get up the hill and have it wound tight comment that's for sure.
Part of me says just get the F150 and if we need it down the road buy a RV to go camping in. That way I won't have to worry about what size of truck to have, and I can tow the boat too. The trouble with an RV is that you will need something to get around in sometimes like when you have to go get more ice etc. during camping...and when you are pulling a boat that leaves no room for anything else.
The Ecoboost can do everything the 6.2 can do from the comparison. I know that having the diesel it would tow most things like it wasn't even there. The other bad thing is I am a gadget guy at heart...and in a way after driving the 6.7...the F150 would feel like a downgrade. Sigh...what a dilemma!
Before finding this site I had my mind made up that I was just going to get the F150 with the Ecoboost and just not get a large trailer later when we decide to get one. One day I said to the wife, lets go look at trailers just to get an idea of what we would want to have. She immediately went to a really expensive large trailer. So in my mind I thought...well if this is what we will end up with there is no way to tow this with anything else but a diesel.
I currently only have a 3200 lb. boat to tow...and really my Sequoia does tow that. It does struggle going up hills just towing the boat so I do understand the speed up to get up the hill and have it wound tight comment that's for sure.
Part of me says just get the F150 and if we need it down the road buy a RV to go camping in. That way I won't have to worry about what size of truck to have, and I can tow the boat too. The trouble with an RV is that you will need something to get around in sometimes like when you have to go get more ice etc. during camping...and when you are pulling a boat that leaves no room for anything else.
The Ecoboost can do everything the 6.2 can do from the comparison. I know that having the diesel it would tow most things like it wasn't even there. The other bad thing is I am a gadget guy at heart...and in a way after driving the 6.7...the F150 would feel like a downgrade. Sigh...what a dilemma!
Can you keep your 2001 Sequoia as a back up vehicle? If it is relativelely decent, why not keep it as primary vehicle for the insurance...and get a new PSD 6.7L as a leasure vehicle? That way, you can perhaps incur minimum expense with great options for you to tow with the best suitable vehicle when different needs arise.
If you had to do with just one vehicle, what type of driving will you be doing most of the time? DD on short distance, long drives (with or without towing), or only occasional drive?
How urgent is your need to get a new tow vehicle? If it's not all that urgent, why not wait? Surely there will be better options, reliability and capability of future vehicles, any from big 3 US truck makers...and maybe even from foreign one...like Toyota in few years. Do you have to buy a new truck right now?
Only you can really make that personal decision....
#17
02-27-2012, 06:51 PM
It's my personal preference. Don't use my opinion as vehicle purchase advice though, I am not qualified to give that kind of advice.
Not a need, but a want. I'm sure a Ranger could probably do the job and satisfy the basic need(want) for motor transportation and you see them running around overloaded, mudflaps scraping the ground and all. We like to have a certain level of overkill though, overkill is confidence inspiring and peace of mind to people knowing that there is a huge margin left over to do the job and more. That is why people are concerned with these fuel system failures is because we paid the price premium and bought these overkill trucks to take not only daily use but occasional overloading, driving off road and operation in adverse conditions. Occasional might be the once a year heavy snowstorm that comes through... you have to drive to Point B... would you rather take your Fiesta or the F-350? To learn that fuel slightly out of specification can destroy components (as opposed to simply malfunctioning until the problem condition is eliminated) is contrary to what buyers are looking for in a 'takes everything you can throw in it' vehicle. It gives a feeling that you now have a truck that looks and talks tough but is picky with fuel and other fluids and high maintenance just like an exotic luxury car.
I wanted to be back in a Diesel engined Ford truck. I learned to drive in my 2004 6.0L with 425,000km which finally died, with everything that could go wrong on the VT365 (notably turbo and HEUI system injectors) and I ended up picking up a few older OBS F-series along the way for cheap to add to my collection. My affordable daily driver truck was a $20k RCLB Tundra, which worked well with low maintenance and low cost maintenance parts (oil changes), but this is what I really wanted to be driving. That was the smarter financial decision and better value, while the F-350 purchase was influenced more by personal desire than pure cost-feature or TCO projections.
Within recent years, some of the old reasons for wanting the diesel engine option have become invalid... diesel fuel is now around the same price as regular gasoline, not significantly cheaper as it used to be (was a byproduct of the refining process, whereas now it is the item being refined to ULSD 0.0015% specifications), and it used to be simpler than a gasoline engine but now it might have surpassed the gassers in complexity. The old thinking was: More energy per fuel unit, lower cost for fuel unit, better fuel economy. That made the diesel engine premium a no-brainer. Sometimes the math doesn't make much sense anymore: Many corporation fleets are going back to gasoline engines. I have had insightful discussions with company vehicle fleet managers and those were just some of the factors that were considered in switching some of the fleet back to gasoline and only keeping a smaller (than before) number of Diesel engined trucks for the truly heavy work.
Nevertheless, the torque delivery at low RPMs is what makes it attractive to me. I like driving vehicles close to lugging speed. Gas engines do not take nicely to lugging at all, while diesel engines do better. I want to climb that hill in 6th gear and not have to downshift to 4th to make it over.
It also has to do with customer demand and popularity in a given area. Here in Alberta, diesel powered trucks are still extremely popular. Perhaps it's because our fuel prices are cheaper than the rest of the country, or maybe it's the higher disposable income floating around from our local industry (it's a circle). I haven't studied that in detail, just from casual observation. Either way, dealers order larger quantities of the popular models. The 6.7L is a popular seller and it shows on the road as well. My fleet special truck is relatively lame in comparison with the trucks out on the road there, often Lariat, Harley, or King Ranch trim packages (Denali, Laramie Longhorn for the GM and RAM offerings). That kind of "bling" is not my style at all though.
You consider what is popular with the market when purchasing a vehicle: either ordering lot stock from the automaker from a dealer standpoint or purchasing a single unit as an end-user buyer, from a dealer. Like that green F-350 DRW that was brought up in another thread here... if people don't like it, you're not getting what you deserve to be paid for it, should you attempt to sell something unpopular. I'll let you know how unpopular my 2WD Regular cab Tundra was when I was selling it... for many the 4x2 was a deal breaker. If that wasn't a deal breaker it was the regular cab style.
I'm currently driving a 2012 6.2L F-350 rental and while I could definitely live with it (everything else is exactly the same as my truck, crew cab long bed white exterior grey interior), I find that I am flooring the accelerator pedal to merge onto highways. Perhaps that is how it likes to run, close to 4000 RPM but I sure don't like that, and it's definitely not getting any better fuel economy running like that. The rest of the powertrain and truck are similar - exact same 6R140 transmission, different programming, and 3.73:1 gears instead of 3.55:1. Sure, merging onto highways is only a small percentage of all driving tasks so is it really that important? Maybe it isn't.
I never drove a gas engined Super Duty when I was truck shopping so actually this is the first time, and I've had it for a week now so I can consider it an extended test drive.
Higher payload though, because of lighter curb weight. 3822lbs on the gas truck vs. 3411lbs on the diesel.
I should be getting my own truck back soon, like within a day or two, so does anyone want me to take pictures of any specific items to compare? I've got photos of the engine bay, B pillar stickers, and some undercarriage. I made a video of the vacuum boost brake pedal operation and will be doing the same with my hydroboost equipped truck for comparison purposes.
Not a need, but a want. I'm sure a Ranger could probably do the job and satisfy the basic need(want) for motor transportation and you see them running around overloaded, mudflaps scraping the ground and all. We like to have a certain level of overkill though, overkill is confidence inspiring and peace of mind to people knowing that there is a huge margin left over to do the job and more. That is why people are concerned with these fuel system failures is because we paid the price premium and bought these overkill trucks to take not only daily use but occasional overloading, driving off road and operation in adverse conditions. Occasional might be the once a year heavy snowstorm that comes through... you have to drive to Point B... would you rather take your Fiesta or the F-350? To learn that fuel slightly out of specification can destroy components (as opposed to simply malfunctioning until the problem condition is eliminated) is contrary to what buyers are looking for in a 'takes everything you can throw in it' vehicle. It gives a feeling that you now have a truck that looks and talks tough but is picky with fuel and other fluids and high maintenance just like an exotic luxury car.
I wanted to be back in a Diesel engined Ford truck. I learned to drive in my 2004 6.0L with 425,000km which finally died, with everything that could go wrong on the VT365 (notably turbo and HEUI system injectors) and I ended up picking up a few older OBS F-series along the way for cheap to add to my collection. My affordable daily driver truck was a $20k RCLB Tundra, which worked well with low maintenance and low cost maintenance parts (oil changes), but this is what I really wanted to be driving. That was the smarter financial decision and better value, while the F-350 purchase was influenced more by personal desire than pure cost-feature or TCO projections.
Within recent years, some of the old reasons for wanting the diesel engine option have become invalid... diesel fuel is now around the same price as regular gasoline, not significantly cheaper as it used to be (was a byproduct of the refining process, whereas now it is the item being refined to ULSD 0.0015% specifications), and it used to be simpler than a gasoline engine but now it might have surpassed the gassers in complexity. The old thinking was: More energy per fuel unit, lower cost for fuel unit, better fuel economy. That made the diesel engine premium a no-brainer. Sometimes the math doesn't make much sense anymore: Many corporation fleets are going back to gasoline engines. I have had insightful discussions with company vehicle fleet managers and those were just some of the factors that were considered in switching some of the fleet back to gasoline and only keeping a smaller (than before) number of Diesel engined trucks for the truly heavy work.
Nevertheless, the torque delivery at low RPMs is what makes it attractive to me. I like driving vehicles close to lugging speed. Gas engines do not take nicely to lugging at all, while diesel engines do better. I want to climb that hill in 6th gear and not have to downshift to 4th to make it over.
It also has to do with customer demand and popularity in a given area. Here in Alberta, diesel powered trucks are still extremely popular. Perhaps it's because our fuel prices are cheaper than the rest of the country, or maybe it's the higher disposable income floating around from our local industry (it's a circle). I haven't studied that in detail, just from casual observation. Either way, dealers order larger quantities of the popular models. The 6.7L is a popular seller and it shows on the road as well. My fleet special truck is relatively lame in comparison with the trucks out on the road there, often Lariat, Harley, or King Ranch trim packages (Denali, Laramie Longhorn for the GM and RAM offerings). That kind of "bling" is not my style at all though.
You consider what is popular with the market when purchasing a vehicle: either ordering lot stock from the automaker from a dealer standpoint or purchasing a single unit as an end-user buyer, from a dealer. Like that green F-350 DRW that was brought up in another thread here... if people don't like it, you're not getting what you deserve to be paid for it, should you attempt to sell something unpopular. I'll let you know how unpopular my 2WD Regular cab Tundra was when I was selling it... for many the 4x2 was a deal breaker. If that wasn't a deal breaker it was the regular cab style.
I'm currently driving a 2012 6.2L F-350 rental and while I could definitely live with it (everything else is exactly the same as my truck, crew cab long bed white exterior grey interior), I find that I am flooring the accelerator pedal to merge onto highways. Perhaps that is how it likes to run, close to 4000 RPM but I sure don't like that, and it's definitely not getting any better fuel economy running like that. The rest of the powertrain and truck are similar - exact same 6R140 transmission, different programming, and 3.73:1 gears instead of 3.55:1. Sure, merging onto highways is only a small percentage of all driving tasks so is it really that important? Maybe it isn't.
I never drove a gas engined Super Duty when I was truck shopping so actually this is the first time, and I've had it for a week now so I can consider it an extended test drive.
Higher payload though, because of lighter curb weight. 3822lbs on the gas truck vs. 3411lbs on the diesel.
I should be getting my own truck back soon, like within a day or two, so does anyone want me to take pictures of any specific items to compare? I've got photos of the engine bay, B pillar stickers, and some undercarriage. I made a video of the vacuum boost brake pedal operation and will be doing the same with my hydroboost equipped truck for comparison purposes.
#18
02-27-2012, 06:54 PM
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I simply wanted a diesel. The 6.2 gas has a great exhaust note and is plenty powerful for anything I may do. Diesels are a more efficient means of internal combustion than gas. I do not tow and every once in a while I will haul something heavy but logically speaking I would have been more than satisfied with an F-150. The displacement, torque, the power of the 6.7 is just raw and exciting. The transmission handles all this power with a sophistication that will amaze you. My last truck was a 2007 6.2l six speed transmission Escalade suv. Very nice vehicle and my F250 is superior to the Escalade in every way.
I do miss the throaty low rumble of the 6.2.
I do miss the throaty low rumble of the 6.2.
#19
02-27-2012, 08:56 PM
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The gasser super duty trucks will tow anything the diesel ones will. It's just the preference of the driver, not really a black and white ink on paper kind of decision. This is why gas vs. diesel threads go on for weeks......
I drove gas engines for years, I tow medium to large trailers all the time. If I put 50k miles on my truck in one year, 40k of those miles will be with a trailer. So for me the diesel is extremely nice. When you drive with a good load/trailer the engine does not rev high, make louder sounds, and the transmission is not searching for gears every 30 seconds. Generally, the diesel will not act any differently when it has a big load pulling against it.
With a gas engine there is much more evidence apparent to you that the engine is being asked to work hard. I find this annoying, tiresome, and even stressful. I drive around 1,000 miles per week and prefer not to listen to a screaming engine.
So in my personal experience it boils down to perception. The gas motor lets you know when it's working. The diesel remains the same, loaded or not. It's more enjoyable and more powerful.
For what it's worth, I don't pay any attention to the bad fuel fuel pump threads anymore. I don't even read them.
Hope this helps.
I drove gas engines for years, I tow medium to large trailers all the time. If I put 50k miles on my truck in one year, 40k of those miles will be with a trailer. So for me the diesel is extremely nice. When you drive with a good load/trailer the engine does not rev high, make louder sounds, and the transmission is not searching for gears every 30 seconds. Generally, the diesel will not act any differently when it has a big load pulling against it.
With a gas engine there is much more evidence apparent to you that the engine is being asked to work hard. I find this annoying, tiresome, and even stressful. I drive around 1,000 miles per week and prefer not to listen to a screaming engine.
So in my personal experience it boils down to perception. The gas motor lets you know when it's working. The diesel remains the same, loaded or not. It's more enjoyable and more powerful.
For what it's worth, I don't pay any attention to the bad fuel fuel pump threads anymore. I don't even read them.
Hope this helps.
That's the best logic I've read yet when comparing gas to diesel.
#20
02-27-2012, 09:11 PM
In the interest of being fair and honest, I want to stress one important thing. Don't let anyone tell you that a gas engine won't tow as much as the diesel. They are both more powerful than we really need, even when considering a18k pound trailer.
It's the behavior, manners, tendency of the motors that is different.
I always feel that the argument gets clouded with other things that mess it up.
It's the behavior, manners, tendency of the motors that is different.
I always feel that the argument gets clouded with other things that mess it up.
#21
02-28-2012, 09:49 AM
A different perspective...I have the 6.2. I do not need the extra torque for my towing needs. The diesel would be great fun but overkill for me. The upfront cost of the diesel was a consideration, as was DEF fluid, cold starts living on the Canadian prairies, and more expensive at the pumps. The complexity and cost of today's diesel emissions means I personally wouldn't keep it past warranty expiration. The 6.2 has more HP and only a little less torque that a diesel from 10 years ago. Again these are my needs, I have nothing against the Powerstroke and will buy one if my needs change.
#22
02-28-2012, 10:08 AM
Thank you everyone for the answers...I am not looking for someone to tell me which truck to buy, just want to hear why you all chose what you did.
I guess the biggest problem for me is I like to plan for the future and not getting a super duty would limit me from the size of trailer I would be able to get...whenever that happens. It might not happen for 5 years or more...and currently my towing needs do not exceed towing the boat.
I can certainly keep the Sequoia, actually my daughter would want it if I bought something since she has a horse and horse trailer. Even looking at the F150's they are in the mid 45K range (at least the one I would purchase...gadget guy remember?) The super duty with the 6.2L towing is 11,900 with 3.51 gears (which is not much more than the F150 for 5th wheel). With 4.3 the towing jumps to 14,900. The 6.7 diesel is 15,700 for the F350 (SRW) with 3.31 or 3.55 gearing.
I wonder what 2013 has in store for these trucks?
I guess the biggest problem for me is I like to plan for the future and not getting a super duty would limit me from the size of trailer I would be able to get...whenever that happens. It might not happen for 5 years or more...and currently my towing needs do not exceed towing the boat.
I can certainly keep the Sequoia, actually my daughter would want it if I bought something since she has a horse and horse trailer. Even looking at the F150's they are in the mid 45K range (at least the one I would purchase...gadget guy remember?) The super duty with the 6.2L towing is 11,900 with 3.51 gears (which is not much more than the F150 for 5th wheel). With 4.3 the towing jumps to 14,900. The 6.7 diesel is 15,700 for the F350 (SRW) with 3.31 or 3.55 gearing.
I wonder what 2013 has in store for these trucks?
#23
02-28-2012, 10:24 AM
From the day I drove off the lot 12,000kms ago I have gotten 17 L/100KM or 16.6 imp MPG or 13.8 us MPG mixed city highway winter driving. I haven't pulled much but the 3 hr trip from the lake in the fall was 22L/100Km - 12.8 imp MPG - 10.7 us MPG on flat roads.
#24
02-28-2012, 11:16 AM
#25
02-28-2012, 11:53 AM
Senior User
I guess the biggest problem for me is I like to plan for the future and not getting a super duty would limit me from the size of trailer I would be able to get...whenever that happens. It might not happen for 5 years or more...and currently my towing needs do not exceed towing the boat.
Drive the vehicle you have now, or buy an F150 and sell it, IF and when, 5 years from now, you decide to buy a 5th wheel and want a Superduty diesel. Any money you might save by "planning ahead" is easily lost in the depreciation of the vehicle over that time period. Obviously the best way to minimize that depreciation is to just keep the Sequoia and drive it until your situation changes. On top of that, 5 years from now, when who knows what the Superduties will look like and have for power, you're going to be staring at the 2017s and wishing you had one of those.
On the other hand, if you just want a Superduty with a 6.7 diesel, which it's pretty obvious you do, badly
, then by all means, go get yourself one. Just realize that it is a want, and not a need, but who's to say there's anything wrong with that, certainly not me!
#26
02-28-2012, 01:30 PM
Well I am not going to help with what I have to say now.
My theory: you only get 1 shot at life. If I did not have to drive a truck I would be cruising around in an M5 with the manual transmission.
Folks like us that have an obsession with vehicles don't drive vehicles that are justifiable. There are plenty of folks out there that are perfectly fine with driving a 1984 civic but they may have a $10,000 stereo system in their living room. We all have our "things".
My theory: you only get 1 shot at life. If I did not have to drive a truck I would be cruising around in an M5 with the manual transmission.
Folks like us that have an obsession with vehicles don't drive vehicles that are justifiable. There are plenty of folks out there that are perfectly fine with driving a 1984 civic but they may have a $10,000 stereo system in their living room. We all have our "things".
#27
02-28-2012, 03:25 PM
The new emissions technology is not mature enough if you demand 98%+ up-time. Couple that with the questionable quality of the USLD fuel, and also potential design problems with the HPFP and fuel system, and a diesel is not in the cards for me right now.
The 6.2 is rate to tow 15,000 lbs with a 4.30 rear end in the DRW configuration.
If you get the CNG/LPG option, you have the option of putting on an ancillary propane tank, and have a tri-fuel capable vehicle at a very affordable price (gasoline/E85/propane), so that you can get the best price with an uncertain energy future (price and supply-wise).
Price wise on a per gallon basis, diesel makes no sense if you tow under 15,000 lbs.
If you have to tow above 15,000 lbs, you have no other choice, get the diesel.
As for overall fuel mileage, it doesn't matter. You will still get raped at the pump no matter what you get. Right now you can get propane for 2.50ish a gallon, depending on where you are. Still cheaper than gas, and propane conversion is only $6k, cheaper than the diesel option.
The 6.2 is rate to tow 15,000 lbs with a 4.30 rear end in the DRW configuration.
If you get the CNG/LPG option, you have the option of putting on an ancillary propane tank, and have a tri-fuel capable vehicle at a very affordable price (gasoline/E85/propane), so that you can get the best price with an uncertain energy future (price and supply-wise).
Price wise on a per gallon basis, diesel makes no sense if you tow under 15,000 lbs.
If you have to tow above 15,000 lbs, you have no other choice, get the diesel.
As for overall fuel mileage, it doesn't matter. You will still get raped at the pump no matter what you get. Right now you can get propane for 2.50ish a gallon, depending on where you are. Still cheaper than gas, and propane conversion is only $6k, cheaper than the diesel option.
#28
02-28-2012, 07:35 PM
More Turbo
#29
02-28-2012, 08:54 PM
Rental truck returned. I kept the same logs with the rental as I do with my own truck (for time and billing purposes) ... Some numbers from my log book for fuel economy, calculated by PCM. I use the truck-provided numbers not for calibration, but for indication and relative comparison only. I reset at the beginning of every trip:
The following numbers are in Litres per 100 kilometres (lower number is better fuel economy) excerpted from the recent entries in my logbook
6.2L:
17, 26, 30, 24, 20, 25, 20, 19
All-time low: 16L/100km (over a week of use)
Calculated fuel economy from fuel-up, E10 gas:17.15
6.7L:
16, 14, 14, 17, 12, 14, 14, 12
All-time low: 11L/100km (over 6 months of ownership)
Calculated fuel economy from recent fuel-ups, B5 diesel: 15.83, 15.05, 16.17
I drove to all the same places, same roads as I usually do.
The following numbers are in Litres per 100 kilometres (lower number is better fuel economy) excerpted from the recent entries in my logbook
6.2L:
17, 26, 30, 24, 20, 25, 20, 19
All-time low: 16L/100km (over a week of use)
Calculated fuel economy from fuel-up, E10 gas:17.15
6.7L:
16, 14, 14, 17, 12, 14, 14, 12
All-time low: 11L/100km (over 6 months of ownership)
Calculated fuel economy from recent fuel-ups, B5 diesel: 15.83, 15.05, 16.17
I drove to all the same places, same roads as I usually do.
#30
02-28-2012, 09:39 PM
