Up Yours Ford! Last Straw for me
#31
10-26-2011, 10:31 PM
Wow, Tylus, that is terrible. I have an '02 E150 van, Oxford White, that was built in June 2002 and has basically spent its life outdoors in Michigan (and driven in salty winters). The roof has similar channels in it and in addition has the old "drip edge" style rain gutter all around the roof. Like in the old days.
Anyway, the white paint fell off the insides of the gutters years ago but left gray primer and a clean seam at the edge of the major roof panel which has not rusted seriously, and the ends of the channels are where the water (and acid rain, and salt) sit and etch the paint and make mold or just black grit stuck in the paint. There is a black coating in the rain channels where water sits and at the ends (more the rear) of those stamped channels. Every couple years, I will get on a ladder and wash the channels with some strong detergent and there is no rust formation there. But the paint seems thin and I can see it being etched thru in another couple years.
I fell for the dealer's bundled rustproofing package and they did a terrible job on some panels (which I found out too late) and I am getting rust in the bottoms of the door seams on the driver's door and the 40% side door.
It is about the same age as my wife's '98 Sable was when we sold it; that car was also white and had two doors rusting at the bottom seam (I was able to clean and touch them up so the rust was not super evident.)
When I bought my first new vehicle, a silver '78 F100, I ordered it from a dealer. When it arrived, it had a couple panels one side of the bed and some interior panels that were already resprayed at the factory, and there was some peeling paint on body-color parts of the interior that I had Ford respray.
The sliver paint was not clear coated, really thin, and started falling off in sheets when the truck was 5-6 years old or so. I remember hitting it with a quarter car wash wand on the hood and washing off a swath of silver paint. The roof and hood had major areas where the paint was gone but the primer remained. The rust in that truck was in the single layer heavy steel rear flareside fenders, which Ford had undercoated heavily. And the undercoating separated from the fenders leaving pockets for salt water to live. And they rotted. Sold the truck at about 8 years old, looking pretty shabby. The paint was oxidized badly and had like zero shine.
So if you ever want to talk about serious body rust, I've been there (Have owned over 30 cars, many of them with various stages of body rust which is inevitable in Michigan.)
My sincere wishes for a good settlement, Tylus,
George
Anyway, the white paint fell off the insides of the gutters years ago but left gray primer and a clean seam at the edge of the major roof panel which has not rusted seriously, and the ends of the channels are where the water (and acid rain, and salt) sit and etch the paint and make mold or just black grit stuck in the paint. There is a black coating in the rain channels where water sits and at the ends (more the rear) of those stamped channels. Every couple years, I will get on a ladder and wash the channels with some strong detergent and there is no rust formation there. But the paint seems thin and I can see it being etched thru in another couple years.
I fell for the dealer's bundled rustproofing package and they did a terrible job on some panels (which I found out too late) and I am getting rust in the bottoms of the door seams on the driver's door and the 40% side door.
It is about the same age as my wife's '98 Sable was when we sold it; that car was also white and had two doors rusting at the bottom seam (I was able to clean and touch them up so the rust was not super evident.)
When I bought my first new vehicle, a silver '78 F100, I ordered it from a dealer. When it arrived, it had a couple panels one side of the bed and some interior panels that were already resprayed at the factory, and there was some peeling paint on body-color parts of the interior that I had Ford respray.
The sliver paint was not clear coated, really thin, and started falling off in sheets when the truck was 5-6 years old or so. I remember hitting it with a quarter car wash wand on the hood and washing off a swath of silver paint. The roof and hood had major areas where the paint was gone but the primer remained. The rust in that truck was in the single layer heavy steel rear flareside fenders, which Ford had undercoated heavily. And the undercoating separated from the fenders leaving pockets for salt water to live. And they rotted. Sold the truck at about 8 years old, looking pretty shabby. The paint was oxidized badly and had like zero shine.
So if you ever want to talk about serious body rust, I've been there (Have owned over 30 cars, many of them with various stages of body rust which is inevitable in Michigan.)
My sincere wishes for a good settlement, Tylus,
George
#32
10-27-2011, 12:31 AM
If I were up North with all the Snow and Salt, I wouldn't be so bent out of shape over this roof issue...well yeah, I would. But I would be more accepting of it. I'm scared of looking in my door seams. Another can of worms that could potentially blow up in my face.
luckily this thing looks like a brand new one from 5+ feet back. Should help the resale
BTW, Ford is avoiding me now, or at least that's the impression that I get. I got transferred from one person to the next and eventually got the "San Diego Regional Manager" voicemail and left a message. Apparently Hawaii doesn't rate their own manager, so we get the Kalifornia one
luckily this thing looks like a brand new one from 5+ feet back. Should help the resale
BTW, Ford is avoiding me now, or at least that's the impression that I get. I got transferred from one person to the next and eventually got the "San Diego Regional Manager" voicemail and left a message. Apparently Hawaii doesn't rate their own manager, so we get the Kalifornia one
#33
10-27-2011, 05:52 PM
The salt air in your area is probably just as bad as the salt they were putting on the roads up here. They are now putting a liquid salt/chemical mixture on the roads for the past few winters. Brakes line are rusting through all over the place. Talk to any mechanic in CT and they will tell you to power wash your under carriage regulary in the winter or the frame etc will rot quickly. See articles below:
Government investigating brake line rust
Government investigating brake line rust
Don't Waste Your Money
Posted: 11/02/2010
Remember how cars from the 1970s would start rusting in just a few years?
In the 90's, they finally improved their rust prevention techniques, so that rusty cars became a thing of the past, until now. Unfortunately, it's making a comeback.
Brakes Fail Without Warning
Beth Farr was driving her daughter home from soccer in her 2003 Buick Rendezvous SUV, when she tells me the brake pedal suddenly went to the floor.
Beth said "we were going down and hill and I was putting on my brakes to slow down, and hit them to the floor and they would not stop. I panicked. I was like 'oh no, oh no!' "
Luckily, Beth says, she was able to coast to a stop on the shoulder of the road, without hitting anything.
So what happened? The repair shop her car was towed to diagnosed a rusty brake line, that snapped without warning when she applied the brakes.
It turns out Beth's case was not an isolated one.
Mechanics See More and More Rust
ASE certified mechanic Jim Schulten is seeing more and more cars with rusted lines.
He demonstrated by bending a rusty brake line, which snapped like a toothpick, instead of bending into a "U" the way a normal brake line would.
Jim said "we're finding rust just eating away the brake lines. Brake lines, even fuel lines in some cases."
And he says replacing a set of brake lines can cost $1,000 or more with parts and labor, which may not make economic sense in an older car worth just $2,000 or $3,000.
Government Launches Investigation
The NHTSA, National Highway Transportation Safety Administration, in July 2010 launched an investigation into more than 6 million GM pickups and full size SUV's, after receiving more than 100 reports of brake lines bursting due to rust.
The NHTSA's investigation centers on 1999- 2003 GM SUV's, which seem to have the most cases of rusting.
GM has not commented, other than telling Motor Trend and Edmunds.com that it is aware of the investigation and is cooperating.
Not Just GM
But other automakers have rust issues too: Ford this year recalled thousands of Windstar minivans because their rear axle can rust and snap in half, a serious safety concern if it happens on the highway.
And mechanics say they are seeing rusting floorboards and sheet metal again in some Chryslers and Nissan's from the 90's and early part of this decade, a problem that automakers had addressed back in the 1980's.
Is it the Steel, or Salt?
The NHTSA wants to know if the problem is cheaper, thinner steel used in todays brake lines and other parts, or stronger road salt in northern states.
Trucking organizations and many mechanics are questioning the liquid salt brine now sprayed onto roads from Maine to Minnesota and as far south as Georgia and Texas, saying it sticks to cars more than granular salt.
State transportation departments deny it's more corrosive, and say it makes highways safer by preventing icy roads before they form.
But mechanics suggest washing the your car's underbody frequently in winter, if roads where you live are salt covered.
And if you drive a 1999 -2003 GM truck or SUV, like Beth, you may want to have a mechanic inspect the brake lines the next time you bring it in for service, because failure can come without warning.
Inspect Used Cars Carefully
Rust checking is especially important when buying a used car: You just don't know if it spent its first few years never being washed, in northern Michigan or somewhere else where salt may have covered it 6 months at a time. That's a potential problem for any car.
So have a pro inspect it, so you get a safe car and so you don't waste your money.
Read more: Government investigating brake line rust
State To Change Snow Removal Tactics
ConnDOT Changing To Salt Almost Exclusively
EAST GRANBY, Conn. -- The state plans to change its longstanding snow removal practice this winter, Eyewitness News has learned.
Channel 3 I-Team reporter Len Besthoff reported the state plans to use salt almost exclusively to melt ice and snow on the roads.
When drivers see snow or ice on the road, many just want it to melt so they can get where they want to go.
"It's scary because it's slippery," said Liz Jachym.
"It is a little nerve-wracking," said Abbegale Drake.
For years, Connecticut has used a mix of salt and sand to treat its roads, but after extensive research, the Department of Transportation has decided to use almost 100 percent rock salt, sodium chloride.
"Very little sand in the equation. It's an all salt, chemical priority policy this year," said Pat Rodgers, a ConnDOT transportation maintenance manager.
Besthoff reported the state is cutting sand from the formula because it's too much trouble and expense to buy it, store it, spread it and then clean it up and dispose it.
"Once we put sand on the roadway, we feel that after 16, 18, 20 cars, the effectiveness of that sand has dissipated," said Mike Lonergan, ConnDOT's engineering administrator.
ConnDOT officials also said crews will add calcium chloride to the mix. Calcium chloride is a different kind of salt that will be stored in tanks on snowplow trucks and spread in liquid form just seconds before the road salt gets put down.
"Calcium chloride applied to salt will go down to zero degrees. A lot of the New England states like to refer to it as salt on steroids."
- Mike Lonergan
ConnDOT Engineering Administrator
"The salt needs moisture, or some type of moisture, to activate quicker," said Dan DiNardi, a snow plow operator. "So, this calcium chloride, it activates the calcium chloride that much faster so that when it hits the road, it keeps the roads bare and clear."
"Calcium chloride applied to salt will go down to zero degrees. A lot of the New England states like to refer to it as salt on steroids," Lonergan said.
Some drivers Eyewitness News spoke with wondered whether a strictly-salt policy will affect their cars. The state emphasized that it will use roughly the same amount of salt as in years past and the new calcium chloride liquid will have a rust inhibitor.
Still, some believe any amount of salt will corrode cars.
"It's still going to, you know, rust your vehicle. It's still going to have some impact on your vehicle," said Will Livermore.
"The salt almost seems to, you can feel it eating away on the car," Jachym said.
In fact, the Oregon Department of Transportation said it does not use salt on the roads because of what it believes salt does to vehicles, steel bridges and the environment.
On the flip side, researchers and auto body experts said today's vehicles are made with much better corrosion-resistant paints that fight off the effects of road salt.
Connecticut is one of the last states in New England to move to almost strictly salt, which is already a common practice in Massachusetts, Vermont, Maine and New Hampshire.
Posted: 11/02/2010
Remember how cars from the 1970s would start rusting in just a few years?
In the 90's, they finally improved their rust prevention techniques, so that rusty cars became a thing of the past, until now. Unfortunately, it's making a comeback.
Brakes Fail Without Warning
Beth Farr was driving her daughter home from soccer in her 2003 Buick Rendezvous SUV, when she tells me the brake pedal suddenly went to the floor.
Beth said "we were going down and hill and I was putting on my brakes to slow down, and hit them to the floor and they would not stop. I panicked. I was like 'oh no, oh no!' "
Luckily, Beth says, she was able to coast to a stop on the shoulder of the road, without hitting anything.
So what happened? The repair shop her car was towed to diagnosed a rusty brake line, that snapped without warning when she applied the brakes.
It turns out Beth's case was not an isolated one.
Mechanics See More and More Rust
ASE certified mechanic Jim Schulten is seeing more and more cars with rusted lines.
He demonstrated by bending a rusty brake line, which snapped like a toothpick, instead of bending into a "U" the way a normal brake line would.
Jim said "we're finding rust just eating away the brake lines. Brake lines, even fuel lines in some cases."
And he says replacing a set of brake lines can cost $1,000 or more with parts and labor, which may not make economic sense in an older car worth just $2,000 or $3,000.
Government Launches Investigation
The NHTSA, National Highway Transportation Safety Administration, in July 2010 launched an investigation into more than 6 million GM pickups and full size SUV's, after receiving more than 100 reports of brake lines bursting due to rust.
The NHTSA's investigation centers on 1999- 2003 GM SUV's, which seem to have the most cases of rusting.
GM has not commented, other than telling Motor Trend and Edmunds.com that it is aware of the investigation and is cooperating.
Not Just GM
But other automakers have rust issues too: Ford this year recalled thousands of Windstar minivans because their rear axle can rust and snap in half, a serious safety concern if it happens on the highway.
And mechanics say they are seeing rusting floorboards and sheet metal again in some Chryslers and Nissan's from the 90's and early part of this decade, a problem that automakers had addressed back in the 1980's.
Is it the Steel, or Salt?
The NHTSA wants to know if the problem is cheaper, thinner steel used in todays brake lines and other parts, or stronger road salt in northern states.
Trucking organizations and many mechanics are questioning the liquid salt brine now sprayed onto roads from Maine to Minnesota and as far south as Georgia and Texas, saying it sticks to cars more than granular salt.
State transportation departments deny it's more corrosive, and say it makes highways safer by preventing icy roads before they form.
But mechanics suggest washing the your car's underbody frequently in winter, if roads where you live are salt covered.
And if you drive a 1999 -2003 GM truck or SUV, like Beth, you may want to have a mechanic inspect the brake lines the next time you bring it in for service, because failure can come without warning.
Inspect Used Cars Carefully
Rust checking is especially important when buying a used car: You just don't know if it spent its first few years never being washed, in northern Michigan or somewhere else where salt may have covered it 6 months at a time. That's a potential problem for any car.
So have a pro inspect it, so you get a safe car and so you don't waste your money.
Read more: Government investigating brake line rust
State To Change Snow Removal Tactics
ConnDOT Changing To Salt Almost Exclusively
EAST GRANBY, Conn. -- The state plans to change its longstanding snow removal practice this winter, Eyewitness News has learned.
Channel 3 I-Team reporter Len Besthoff reported the state plans to use salt almost exclusively to melt ice and snow on the roads.
When drivers see snow or ice on the road, many just want it to melt so they can get where they want to go.
"It's scary because it's slippery," said Liz Jachym.
"It is a little nerve-wracking," said Abbegale Drake.
For years, Connecticut has used a mix of salt and sand to treat its roads, but after extensive research, the Department of Transportation has decided to use almost 100 percent rock salt, sodium chloride.
"Very little sand in the equation. It's an all salt, chemical priority policy this year," said Pat Rodgers, a ConnDOT transportation maintenance manager.
Besthoff reported the state is cutting sand from the formula because it's too much trouble and expense to buy it, store it, spread it and then clean it up and dispose it.
"Once we put sand on the roadway, we feel that after 16, 18, 20 cars, the effectiveness of that sand has dissipated," said Mike Lonergan, ConnDOT's engineering administrator.
ConnDOT officials also said crews will add calcium chloride to the mix. Calcium chloride is a different kind of salt that will be stored in tanks on snowplow trucks and spread in liquid form just seconds before the road salt gets put down.
"Calcium chloride applied to salt will go down to zero degrees. A lot of the New England states like to refer to it as salt on steroids."
- Mike Lonergan
ConnDOT Engineering Administrator
"The salt needs moisture, or some type of moisture, to activate quicker," said Dan DiNardi, a snow plow operator. "So, this calcium chloride, it activates the calcium chloride that much faster so that when it hits the road, it keeps the roads bare and clear."
"Calcium chloride applied to salt will go down to zero degrees. A lot of the New England states like to refer to it as salt on steroids," Lonergan said.
Some drivers Eyewitness News spoke with wondered whether a strictly-salt policy will affect their cars. The state emphasized that it will use roughly the same amount of salt as in years past and the new calcium chloride liquid will have a rust inhibitor.
Still, some believe any amount of salt will corrode cars.
"It's still going to, you know, rust your vehicle. It's still going to have some impact on your vehicle," said Will Livermore.
"The salt almost seems to, you can feel it eating away on the car," Jachym said.
In fact, the Oregon Department of Transportation said it does not use salt on the roads because of what it believes salt does to vehicles, steel bridges and the environment.
On the flip side, researchers and auto body experts said today's vehicles are made with much better corrosion-resistant paints that fight off the effects of road salt.
Connecticut is one of the last states in New England to move to almost strictly salt, which is already a common practice in Massachusetts, Vermont, Maine and New Hampshire.
#35
10-27-2011, 06:43 PM
Still nothing from Ford customer service. They are "communicating" with me using the Service Writer at Cutter Ford. I've left multiple messages and keep getting passed from one person to the next. But nobody in charge worked yesterday or today somehow.
Going down to Dealership today so they can take pictures of the roof and submit to Fords Warranty division.
Going down to Dealership today so they can take pictures of the roof and submit to Fords Warranty division.
#36
10-27-2011, 10:49 PM
#37
10-27-2011, 11:12 PM
Well ain't that funny. He is not alone with paint problems. You Ford guy's want to pick on somebody that complains about having a problem, just wait until you have one and see how Ford treats You. They will not even return my calls about my 2010 Lincoln Nav that came with small flakes on the entire bottom half of my new car. I think the body shop referred to rail dust from shipping the cars on trains. Is it my fault that they use rail open cars to ship unprotected autos? They also never fixed my problem with my new 2011 F250 with no brakes.. I have bought over 6 ( six ) new Fords in the past four years and have bought my LAST ONE. A very unhappy truck owner from North Carolina, Morganton, dealer also no help.....Tim G.
#38
10-27-2011, 11:13 PM
Navigator and F250
Well ain't that funny. He is not alone with paint problems. You Ford guy's want to pick on somebody that complains about having a problem, just wait until you have one and see how Ford treats You. They will not even return my calls about my 2010 Lincoln Nav that came with small flakes on the entire bottom half of my new car. I think the body shop referred to rail dust from shipping the cars on trains. Is it my fault that they use rail open cars to ship unprotected autos? They also never fixed my problem with my new 2011 F250 with no brakes.. I have bought over 6 ( six ) new Fords in the past four years and have bought my LAST ONE. A very unhappy truck owner from North Carolina, Morganton, dealer also no help.....Tim G.
#40
10-28-2011, 12:24 AM
More crappy news on the paint front
If it weren't so frustrating, this could almost be funny.
I cleaned the roof off really good today for the pictures. Found the entire drivers and passenger side drip rails (ones above the doors to channel water away) have cracked paint. Picture a shattered window, but the glass still there. Just a bunch of spiderweb style cracks and rust starting to form in all the seperations.
gets better
at the Dealership I had photos taken by 2 different Service Writers. While we were standing on the rear bumper to get photo's, I happened to look in the seam between rear hatch and roof...wanna guess what I found? 3 nickel to quarter size spots of rust where the paint was completely missing
and more
Service Writer was using her manicured fingernails as a reference to show size of the rust. She noticed something in the paint and picked at it with her nail. Couple of pretty decent sized flakes of paint lifted right off. There is still paint there...so why did that happen? Flakes were about the 3/8" wide and 1/2" long. I'm guessing it could be overspray from 2009...but that area should have never been painted
got home and parked the damn thing out on the street. hope a drunk driver will take it out or something. Maybe it will get stolen. Dealership said to give them until Tuesday before calling to see if Ford Warranty will cover the paint problems. The people at 1-800-Ford doesn't care won't return my phone calls.
I cleaned the roof off really good today for the pictures. Found the entire drivers and passenger side drip rails (ones above the doors to channel water away) have cracked paint. Picture a shattered window, but the glass still there. Just a bunch of spiderweb style cracks and rust starting to form in all the seperations.
gets better
at the Dealership I had photos taken by 2 different Service Writers. While we were standing on the rear bumper to get photo's, I happened to look in the seam between rear hatch and roof...wanna guess what I found? 3 nickel to quarter size spots of rust where the paint was completely missing
and more
Service Writer was using her manicured fingernails as a reference to show size of the rust. She noticed something in the paint and picked at it with her nail. Couple of pretty decent sized flakes of paint lifted right off. There is still paint there...so why did that happen? Flakes were about the 3/8" wide and 1/2" long. I'm guessing it could be overspray from 2009...but that area should have never been painted
got home and parked the damn thing out on the street. hope a drunk driver will take it out or something. Maybe it will get stolen. Dealership said to give them until Tuesday before calling to see if Ford Warranty will cover the paint problems. The people at 1-800-Ford doesn't care won't return my phone calls.
#43
10-28-2011, 08:13 PM
Well ain't that funny. He is not alone with paint problems. You Ford guy's want to pick on somebody that complains about having a problem, just wait until you have one and see how Ford treats You. They will not even return my calls about my 2010 Lincoln Nav that came with small flakes on the entire bottom half of my new car. I think the body shop referred to rail dust from shipping the cars on trains. Is it my fault that they use rail open cars to ship unprotected autos? They also never fixed my problem with my new 2011 F250 with no brakes.. I have bought over 6 ( six ) new Fords in the past four years and have bought my LAST ONE. A very unhappy truck owner from North Carolina, Morganton, dealer also no help.....Tim G.
The OP not only owns a Ford with paint problems, he's owned several. I, like others here currently own more than one Ford and have owned several in the past and have never had a paint problem.
What's nuttier? Believing that every Ford has paint problems or buying a Ford, experiencing paint problems and repeating several times despite getting no satisfaction from Ford Motor Company?
If we presume that a certain percentage of Fords have paint problems, what are the chances of the OP buying several bad ones? It sounds like every Ford the OP has purchased had paint defects. Maybe it's crazy to presume that the OP or his environment has nothing to do with paint problems.
The fact that he's only noticed his latest problem after significant damage has occurred tells me he's probably never cleaned, detailed or waxed the roof of his truck. Please explain how rust damage can get so bad before an owner notices anything wrong. I hope he takes better care of that nuclea submarine. My tax dollars part for part of it.
I'm also amused by how disgruntled customers "go through channels" in vain attempts to get satisfaction. Dealer Service Manager, Ford Regional Manager, 1-800-FORD DONT CARE calls, etc.
Try this:
Get the name of the Vice President of Customer Service or Vice President of Parts & Service. Make sure it's somebody important at Ford World Headquarters. Get a copy of Ford's Annual Report - important executives tend to be named in annual reports.
Next, Google the person and find the name of his or her spouse. These people are well known enough to be covered in the media. The spouse's name comes up sooner or later. (Do this to make sure the executive you're looking for is not somebody else who just happens to have the same last name.)
Then, find out where the exclusive residential neighborhoods close to the executive's office are located (the ones around Dearborn for example). Contact the County Assessor's Office and find out how to search public property tax records. You are looking for the executive's home address. the spouse's name will help make sure you get the right one.
If you are in real estate, or have a broker friend chances are a phone call to a title insurance company will get you the address.
Write a letter to Mr. Bug Shot Executive and Fed Ex it to his home address. Send it Friday for Saturday delivery. You will be surprised how quickly you'll hear from the executive whose secretary wouldn't put your call through. Usually, the first words out of there mouths are, "How in the hell did you get my home address?"
#44
10-29-2011, 09:47 AM
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wow, Tylus. That sounds like a big run of bad luck. I hope Ford takes good care of you and your truck soon.
I'm sure you're already doing it but i highly recommend righting down the name, number, and date of each Ford rep you talk to to keep an official record of what is happening. It may come in handy.
FWIW, my dad bought a brand new '86 F150 pickup in Seabrook(Texas gulf coast) in 1986. The paint never gave problems in all the years that we used it down there. The saltwater air attacked the suspension and frame rails way before it got to the paint.
I was curious if you can narrow down what location all those vehicles were built at? Is it a factory location that is having quality issues? Or was it just bad bad luck and coincedence?
I'm sure you're already doing it but i highly recommend righting down the name, number, and date of each Ford rep you talk to to keep an official record of what is happening. It may come in handy.
FWIW, my dad bought a brand new '86 F150 pickup in Seabrook(Texas gulf coast) in 1986. The paint never gave problems in all the years that we used it down there. The saltwater air attacked the suspension and frame rails way before it got to the paint.
I was curious if you can narrow down what location all those vehicles were built at? Is it a factory location that is having quality issues? Or was it just bad bad luck and coincedence?
#45
10-29-2011, 10:26 AM
