well then how would you describe it??? I live in the mountains of utah, I drive all over the high deserts of every neighboring state in some of the most remote locations in the US under some of the worst weather conditions anywhere. if you lessen braking to that of the LEAST gripping wheel at speeds below 25 mph tell me how in the world that could possibly be a good thing. what if you are on a steep mountain road and you hit patch of ice, you are at a crawl moving maybe 1 or 2 mph you hit a patch of ice one side of the truck is on ice the other not, DUDE IN THIS CASE YOU COULD BE KILLED!!!!

maybe when it snows I should have epiccowlick come over and do one of his famous videos of me demonstrating EXACTLY what I am talking about. ABS is for rookie drivers to keep them out of trouble. a good driver can modulate the brake pedal and control their stop. alot faster. I have been in hairy situations with a trailer pushing me in icy conditions, I have my eyes on the road and expect to stop by a certain point especially at slow speeds, that is when I have almost hit things.

 

You do have standard brakes, they just happened to be equipped with an ABS
There are some vehicles that allow ABS to be switched off for off-road conditions.

There are several variations of ABS operation, 4 wheel, 2 wheel and rear axle, all wheel and rear wheel only (RWAL)
I don’t have my truck, still on order, but the specs list it as having 4 wheel ABS.

4 wheel ABS works by comparing acceleration and deceleration for individual tires and between all 4.
The system is capable of sensing a tire that is about to lock up and modulate the wheel to minimize or prevent full lockup
Locked front tires have zero directional control input. Locked rear tires leave no “tail” control.

All four wheels locked offer no control

The ABS system is capable of performing actions that as a human, you are physically and mentally unable to perform.

ABS is not designed to make your vehicle stop quicker. It is designed to assist you in stopping in the shortest possible distance in less then ideal conditions, and that includes “panic braking”
ABS works best on smooth dry pavement, and In fact can decrease stopping distance on concrete surfaces.
It also works equally well on less then ideal pavement conditions, but rather then decreasing your stopping distance it allows you to maintain directional control while minimizing the stopping distance.

It “may” increase braking distance in loose sand, gravel and snow because on those surfaces locked wheels will tend to dig in, displacing the material where an ABS equipped system will keep the tire from locking.

On sheet ice ABS may not function properly as the system will not be able to compare the four wheels if all four are sliding.

On the the other hand, if you are sliding on sheet ice with or without ABS you have no control.

You can outdrive an ABS equipped vehicle, let’s face it, the laws of physics will always win. Inertia will tend keep you going.


The system does not work like that.. The system will sense that a wheel is “about” to lock and then modulate that particular wheel’s brake pressure to keep it from locking. The systems work so fast the wheel does not have to actually lock up for the modulating to begin.

In that case you should have the side with ice modulating the affected wheels and doing nothing on the side with dry pavement. Since you are on ice and have no control anyway, the dry side is the stopping and steering force.
UNKESS – you do not have a 4 wheel ABS system.

Both of those statements are incorrect.

Did you know that ABS technology originally came from the aviation industry?

Both of your two prior posts above lead to certain conclusions:

• Quite possibly your ABS system is not working correctly.
• You drive in less then ideal conditions with less then ideal loads with less then ideal skills.
• Bragging about driving on mountainous ice covered roads with a trailer pushing you makes one wonder.
• I would never let any of my family members ride with you.

And I would hope, that when the time comes that I can pull my trailer cross country to see the beauty of it all on that side of the nation, that if the conditions change on me and I find myself parked because the road is icy and unsafe, that some cowboy is not coming down the hill with a trailer pushing him out of control.

 

most of what you wrote I can agree with, but the fact still remains, why is it that when going less than 10mph I have both right side wheels on ice 2 left sides on Perfectly DRY pavement, I hit the brakes and the ENTIRE trucks braking force is reduced to that of the right side tires, if even one of my left side tires had full braking force I would have stopped with plenty of control in that case.

from the car builders standpoint having each wheel be controlled independently I could see could cause a control issue, but at slow speed on ice having braking reduced to that of the least gripping wheel means you might as well not have brakes at all.

so porthole are you saying that in a situation where the truck has 2 right side tires on ice and the left sides on dry pavement. the left sides are still getting full braking force??? I wanna know if that is what you are saying??

I operate a service business I pull a 16x7 cargo trailer, this means I have to negotiate residential neighborhoods which are the least maintained for winter conditions, often times its up hills or terrain, try coming up to stop sign and hitting a patch of ice and having your brakes TOTALLY go away because the stupid ABS sensor kicks in. you probably live in a climate where this never happens, so if you do maybe you should listen to someone who does.

 

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Unless, due to the decreased braking ability on the ice side there is a “perceived” decrease on the left side. 4 wheel ABS operation should be independent of each wheel.

Well I’ll agree on part of that, on ice, using sheet ice or black ice for an example (of which we get plenty of), once you are on ice you are at the mercy of Newton’s Law.

There is no magic wand of equipment for driving on sheet ice. The only thing that works is minimal speed. Even that doesn’t work sometimes. We had a minor wreck on a bridge 2 years ago. Small car went off the road, minor. While securing the scene we had 8 or 9 other vehicles lose control on the bridge, all the drivers were unable to provide any control and were just going for the ride. Several of the cars were stopped and “bumped” into, which sent then spinning down the bridge.

Point is, ABS or not, it is not going to help you in 100% of the situations.

I just don’t see how your brakes can go “completely away” Maybe with your prior Dodge.
You now have a 2011 SD, that will operate different. For several years now Ford’s trailer brake controller is tied into the ABS. And new for this year (at least I think it is 2011MY), the controller also uses the brake pressure transducer in trailer brake application.

Nope, Live in New Jersey, have my fair share of weather. Real special last year, an unprecedented 8 feet of snow– in only 4 snowfalls!

I drive a 43’ long, 70,000 pound ladder truck in my job. Year round, in every extreme weather condition possible, from blazing heat to sub zero temps, tropical storms with torrential downpours to hurricane force winds with heavy snowfall. So I do have a little bit of experience of “weather driving”.
No mountains though, we only have “hills” in New Jersey

And BTW, the ladder truck is equipped with ABS and I wouldn’t want to be with out it!

 

My buddies and I have personally track tested ABS equipped cars against similar non-ABS cars in winter and every single time the ABS cars went further during the braking test. Some of these cars had an option to switch off the ABS so it wasn't totally different cars with different tires and whatnot all the time.

The test was with a wide range of different vehicles as well from 08-09 subi STI's, mitsubishi evolutions, corvettes, caddy escalade, ford F350, honda civics, mazdas, and many more.

Granted an unskilled driver just smashing the brakes would fail and probably crash but us car guys that have all kinds of seat time in all weather were able to repeatably stop shorter without ABS.

Unfortunately out of all the cars and trucks we have found that the ford trucks ABS system sucked the worse. lol

 

I bet it wasn't even close either, any idea on how to shut off the abs on our trucks??

 

Unplug it and pull the light out of the dash.

 

I may be stupid for jumping into this conversation. I remember the first ABS cars hitting the roads and driving them (I drove a company car and I put 52k on it that year). The original claims for ABS weren't all based on stopping distance. I remember that the manufacturers spoke specifically about steering control.

I was required to go to performance driving school every year (obviously so they could catch a break on their insurance costs). What I learned was that the ABS in some situations did no better than cars without (Newton's laws still apply) but did have an advantage in panic brake situations where you needed to steer the car out of danger. Living in Buffalo at the time, I did get to test this a number of times over the years, mainly deer jumping out both on snow covered roads as well as dry roads. ABS IMHO does help in those situations. But it does give you an uneasy feeling with that Flintstone mobile feel coming through the brake pedal.

I also remember having one vehicle that had a faulty system and it did some strange things...

 

Once you guys figure out that ABS was not designed to decrease your stopping distance ........................... oh never mind

To each his own. Like King Ranch decor - some like it some don't.

 

Some people simply will not adjust their understanding of how things work, or are supposed to work. Let's just not allow the ABS "issue" to become like the engine brake "issue". Hopefully it won't... ABS has been around for quite some time. I think most people understand how it actually works and what it is intended to do.

 

Exactly.......Does no one read the manual.
"Using ABS
When hard braking is required, apply continuous force on the brake
pedal; do not pump the brake pedal since this will reduce the
effectiveness of the ABS and will increase your vehicle’s stopping
distance. The ABS will be activated immediately, allowing you to retain
steering control during hard braking and on slippery surfaces. However,
the ABS does not decrease stopping distance."

It has never been about stopping distance. It has always been about maintaining directional control. An out of control vehicles stopping distance, safe to say, would be greater. Unless it hits something first. The problem comes in when people drive an ABS vehicle and drive it like one that does not have it, that will significantly increase your stopping distance. I am sure for any system you can find a time that you could do better without it, however, in the vast majority of times this is a good thing to have.

I am surprised they haven't started on the Traction Control System yet. Isn't this the first Super Duty to be equipped with it?

 

When a system increases stopping distance causing what should be avoidable accidents personally I don't like it.

Yes it helps inexperienced drivers from locking up the front wheels and not being able to steer but at a cost. That cost is 80+ feet of stopping distance which is all the difference between plowing over that kid on the bike in the road and not. I'd rather not.

 

80+ feet? Not likely.

From the NHTSA web site:

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/problems/e...kes/page1.html

 

Is this number something you heard off or from some factual test. If it is please give us the link or at least the source reference for this figure, seems a bit exaggerated. I am more than willing to accept data that can be backed up. If you quote a number you should be able to give a reference where you got it.

For what it's worth I am not an engineer or mechanic, but as an airline pilot for over 19 years I am fully aware of how anti-lock/skid systems operate and their capabilities. I am sure there are some slight differences in the systems but I can't imagine much. I have also lived in Buffalo all my life so I am familiar with slick conditions.

From what a quick search provided, although some is from as far back as 2005, the systems continue to improve.

P.S. For those who do not like ABS you better start reading your manual on the Traction Control System (TCS) since it can reduce your power and control each of your brakes individually without your control as it deems necessary. I bet some people digging thru the manual right now.

Wikipedia: "ABS offers improved vehicle control and decreases stopping distances on dry and especially slippery surfaces for many drivers, but on loose surfaces like gravel and snow-on-pavement it can slightly increase braking distance, while still improving vehicle control<sup id="cite_ref-monash.edu.au_0-0" class="reference">."</sup>

Edmunds.com : "Finally, we strongly recommend that buyers choose a car equipped with antilock brakes (ABS), which, with few exceptions, help decrease braking distances on any road surface and in any weather." "Of course, in order to get the most out of ABS in emergency braking situations, you have to know how to use it. "

National Highway Traffic safety Administration: "Do cars with ABS stop more quickly than cars without?
Perhaps, but that�s not the main purpose of ABS. It is a system designed to help you maintain control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations, not necessarily make the car stop more quickly. ABS may shorten stopping distances on wet or slippery roads and most systems may shorten stopping distances on dry roads. On very soft surfaces, such as gravel or unpacked snow, ABS may actually lengthen stopping distances. In wet or icy conditions, you should still make sure you drive carefully, always keep a safe distance behind the vehicle in front of you, and maintain a speed consistent with the road conditions."

AAA: "Under most conditions, a vehicle with a good anti-lock brake system can stop in a slightly shorter distance than an average driver could accomplish in the same vehicle without ABS; however, that is not the main purpose of ABS, and the difference is generally not great enough to notice or be of any real use. ABS certainly doesn't improve your stopping distance nearly enough to justify driving faster or following more closely! ABS can actually lengthen stopping distances on some surfaces, such as loose snow, dirt, or gravel, because of effects that occur during locked-wheel skidding that are unique to those surfaces."

I agree that under some conditions stopping distance may increase slightly but I was unable to find any article that even remotely indicated a significant increase in stopping distance like you stated.

Again, I am more than willing to stand corrected with some factual data.

 

one factor is that cheaper systems release both brakes on the axle. the more expensive systems release only the wheel that is actually locking up. higher performance vehicles tend to have more sophisticated more expensive systems. having operated semi trucks with double trailers with ABS i wouldn't go back to non abs, 16 wheel ends on ice is too much to try to max the braking force manually while staying on the road in control. as far as running overthe kid no one wants any accident, the ABS gives you the option of braking as hard as you can, and STEERING around the threat. any time you have a trailer, the option of ABS gives you more control than having one end or the other lock up and start to jacknife