New Lawsuit Involving F-150 Diesel
 

"Navistar Files Lawsuit Against Ford for Breach of Contract Involving Diesel Engines for Ford F-150 Pickup Trucks





Warrenville, IL (June 6, 2007) Navistar International Corporation (Other OTC: NAVZ) announced today that it has filed a lawsuit against Ford Motor Company for breach of contract relating to a diesel engine contract involving the Ford F-150 pickup truck and is seeking damages. The suit, filed in the Circuit Court of Cook County, Ill., seeks “at least hundreds of millions of dollars.”

Navistar believes that Ford intends to introduce a new diesel engine that actually was designed by International Truck and Engine Corporation, Navistar’s principal operating company.

According to the lawsuit, Ford is developing a 4.4 liter diesel engine for production in North America by late 2009 or 2010 or possibly earlier and intends to produce the engine itself for use in the F-150, and possibly other vehicles. The lawsuit states that Ford cannot do that without violating its contract with Navistar. Reportedly, Ford is considering producing V8 diesel engines at a Ford facility in Chihuahua, Mexico.

The lawsuit states that International spent millions of dollars and devoted years of its employees’ time to develop a next generation diesel engine named “Lion” for use in vehicles including the F-150 pickup trucks in which Ford had not previously offered diesel engines. Ford agreed that International, which has been the exclusive diesel engine supplier for Ford’s heavy-duty pickup trucks since 1979, would manufacture the new diesel engines for Ford in North America.

The lawsuit, filed June 4, is separate from previously reported litigation between the two companies. Earlier this year, Ford filed a lawsuit against Navistar involving 2007 engine pricing and prior period warranty claims on Power Stroke® diesel engines. Navistar counter-sued, stating that pricing is consistent with contractual agreements, that the warranty claims are entirely without merit and that Ford has stopped honoring the terms of an agreement under which engines were built. Navistar amended its counter-complaint on May 2 and asked for in excess of $2 billion in damages.

International’s operating company recently launched a new 6.4L Power Stroke® diesel engine for Ford that meets 2007 emissions standards while increasing performance, durability and fuel economy."

Ford has "mucked" this relationship up so much.... and they will wonder what happened when Toyota launches a diesel or worse yet... gets together with CAT or who knows... Navistar???

The whole strained relationship between Ford and Navistar is enough to make one stay away from their diesels as warrenty, parts, support, training and the like will be severely hampered.

From what I can tell and reading between the lines... Ford is in the wrong and Navistar in the right???

Ford should sell out like Chrysler and move on with a new partner.

"From what I can tell and reading between the lines... Ford is in the wrong and Navistar in the right???"

Well it was a press release from International so it presants their side of the story and not Ford's.


What I found interesting was that International claims the 4.4 was their design? The common conception I have read on here is that its design is from one of Ford's European entities.

navistar in my opinion is pulling at straws. they know that if ford stops buying diesel engines from them, they are gonna be in real deep dog doo.
for is in a signed contract. they did not stop buying engines from navistar, and never claimed they were going to back out of their contract. it is all a bunch of B.S. navistar is pulling to make themselves look good, and ford look bad, and dates back to navistar's failing to make good on their obligations for warranty work regarding the 6.0 engine.

if they would just buck up and work with ford, there would be no problems.

Or if Ford would just "buck up" and work with Navistar, there would be no problems. :-X20

O M G this guy has no brain. If you buy " X " product and it fails in the warranty period, What are you going to do? Claim to be fixed, or pay out of your pocket to fix the X product. Obious!.... Ok if the manufacturer denies to fixed probably your first decision stop paying what you owe to force the manufacturer to fix your product. Now the Ford & Navistar problem is a more complex situation. For what every body knows navistar is not honoring their part of the warranty on their crappy engines. Ford's reputation in diesel line pickups is pending because the lack quality on these problematic engines.

"Now the Ford & Navistar problem is a more complex situation."

Definately!


"For what every body knows navistar is not honoring their part of the warranty on their crappy engines."


Opinion and conjecture.

Actually that is hearsay and over generalization. Also he said "For what everybody knows" that logically means all people, including people at navistar and at ford(which I would hope some people in both those companies knows more then I do). Which also goes into the over generalization.

Maybe Ford should have tested these motors with low cetane fuel (40 - 42) which is the most common fuel most of us buy. They should have bought from regular fuel stations like the rest of us do?

Maybe Ford should have towed and worked these trucks like many of us do?

Maybe Ford should have tested a few "aftermarket tuners" just to develop a "worse case senerio" base line and knowing that many deisels get
tested" this way?

Maybe Ford should have towed at max rating throught the mountains to check for head gasket failure and "puking" and done more than a 1 week run.

Maybe Ford should have trained all their techs "proactively" instead of "on the job training". They have done better on the 6.4L... but not to do so for the 6.0L was a mistake.

Maybe Ford should have stayed with the "stock" Nasvistar tune and not tried to boost the HP and torque as much as they did? Navistar does not even come close to having the problems that Ford does with their version (VT365) of this motor?

Maybe Ford should have used the Navistar electronics and injectors like Navistar uses and not try and "redevelop" the motor with their engineers?

Meh, I'm all for having the diesel engines in the F150's - but I don't think I want to be buying my hardware from there...no offense

Honeywell Is moving alot of their hardware (outsourcing) to Chihuahua - and so far none of it is coming back good...

It's no wonder! The new trucks so expensive and that sales are down because of it! Between the health plan costs and running up the tab with ridiculously expensive corporate $450.00 per hour legal fees, the smaller diesel will end up costing as much as the bigger one does.

Nissan will be the invisible hand here. Ford knows if they ditch International, Nissan will start buying the engines and Ford will be without a supplier unless they can somehow start building the engines themselves (not likely), or perhaps go somewhere else - maybe Caterpillar?

There are a number of people that want to throw that out there, I would be willing to bet that the odds of that happening are very very slim(not to say that it wouldn't happen, but it would take a miracle for caterpillar to enter that type of market).

Cat as a company has some very, very deep pockets, they have the fianancial resources to do whatever they want to do. I just don't think that the way Cat is structured that they could be competive price wise with International or Cummins, but I could be wrong? I think that Ford and International will settle their differences out of necessity.

My long-shot bet is that Toyota and CAT team up together.

Remember... you heard it here first (and I got it from Diesel Power Magazine).

Until pen is put to paper, anything goes though.

I hate to say it as I've been driving Ford trucks for 25 years, but if that happens I might seriously consider jumping ship. Especially given the problems as of the last few years.

i hate to say this again, but cat has repeatedly said they will not, not, never make a small truck diesel engine. period.

the cat engine toyoda is talking about is a jap engine, and has absolutely nothing to do with Caterpillar U.S.A.

If cat went with Ford i would buy one tomorrow. I love Ford, My dad worked there until retirement. I need something to pull hills, I have a Part time mowing bissiness, and I need a truck that can pull about 4200 lbs, my little 4.6 has a hard time, so I hope Ford comes out with the F-150 diesel.

The foreign auto makers are not stupid, after seeing what has happened with ford/navistar and gm/isuzu they will think twice about outsourcing to an engine manufacturer. Why wouldn't they keep that money completely in house? Hino and Ud anyone?

There is only one manufacturer that hasn't had a problem with their diesel supplier......daimler benz and cummins...........which once again proves that cummins is the best all around diesel in a light truck.

In the end............

gm will use the isuzu design and fail to keep it up to date and lose in the long run.

dodge will use the cummins untill cummins backs out and then they will offer a benz design and fair decently well with it.

Toyota will use hino and will top the market...............eventually.

Nissan will use a ud design and stay competitive.

Ford will introduce an in house design that will either make them or break them.........I fear the latter. But they changed the market years ago and could do it again.

I know that cat doesn't want the hastle to enter the race, but If one of the manufacturers would fork out the money........they would rule the market for a looooooooooooooooonnngggggg time. Money talks, thats business. If they were able to offer a cat diesel they could charge 10,000 or more just for the option and people would still buy the crap out of em cause of the name. That's a fact, just look at dodge.......their trucks get crappier and more plastic added, but the still sell due to the cummins name plate on the side.........the engine litterally outlast the trucks........it's a shame that the truck never reaches half the life span of the engine:-missingt

You gentlemen are right on track with your views of the corporate evasion of responsibility, and tenuous partnerships.

I have owned a 1976 F250 4x4 since 1982 and have been a loyal Ford truck owner for 25 years. I like Ford trucks or I wouldn't have put a bundle into my old truck over the years. The time is coming for me to get new truck and restore the old one.

I am in the same boat as everyone else, I like the Ford trucks themselves much better than the Dodge trucks, but that Cummins diesel is the best motor ever put in a pick-up. I am a little scared of the 6.0 and 6.4 Navistar engines because of all the problems. I am unsure, and do not want to spend the money until I feel more comfortable about my choices. I think that both Ford and Dodge are hurting themselves right now. Ford is hurting themselves with the Navistar issues and Dodge is hurting themselves with the quality control issues.

Just about anything can pull 4200 lbs. I used to pull over 6000 with a 98 F150 with the 5.4.

My 300ZX Twin Turbo is built to around 425 hp, if I put the suspension on the very stiff "sport mode", and slap a receiver on it, it could pull 4,200 lbs. easily..LOL!

CAT already has lighter engines they could redo for pickups. They are Constant duty also. Thats why we always loved runing them in a truck. At 450,000 mi. we only had to replace 1 injector and change oil and flters. They have a 4 cylinder that would be perfect in F 150s. Maybe too much power!!

all the little "cat" engines are actually made by perkins, hence the nickname of perkapiller.

5.4 is a stronger v-8 then a 4.6 and plus he said that he had hills to pull up as well that adds another dimension then just having to deal with the extra weight. I have been in a 4.6 and the hills that are in middle tn. and the ones round fredricksburg tx give that one a hard time and that one was just pulling itself and two passengers I couldn't imagine what it would do with extra weight of a mower on there.

Perkins are great engines, ran them when we usssed reefers w/propane engines. Some would shutoff and leak a little vapor in and it would sound like a rifle shot. I never had trouble with their engines in 10 years and around 2.5 million miles running team. Had battery and belt trouble bu not the engine.

4.4 is definitely NOT the IH 4.5
 

The new 4.4 is from Ford of Europe-PSA joint venture and is way more advanced that that 4.5 V6 from IH that we tried to put in the Expos and F150's five years ago. This new V8 is already running in landrovers in a 3.6L and is based on the 2.7L V6 motor which has powered European Jags and Rovers for a few years.

My sources tell me it will be built by a US Diesel engine manufacturer well known for its current inline 6 cyl pickup engine.

Not sure what International is ranting about here, but the "Lion" relationship on this engine comes from the 2.7L European V6. And they'd better not claim too much on the 4.5 V6 which barely beat the 3v 5.4L for fuel ecomomy. It was their injector design which caused many of the problems on the first year 6.0L

wrong it was not navistars injector design it was fords programing in hte ECU that caused the problems (hence 99% of the injector problems were fixed with a reflash, and the reason navistar is denying the warrenty claim as they had NOTHING to do with the fuel delivery system used on the powerstroke) if you check most of the problems with the 6.0 were not with the base engine that navistar is responsible for covering the warrenty costs on. the closest would be the head gasket issue but Ford pushed the power up increasing the boost preasures above the design limits causing a failure, not navistar's problem, I mean put a tuner on your truck and blow the engine and see how long before the Ford service department denies your warrenty claim.
As to cat entering the small truck market, it's been said in this thread and many others as well as direct output from Cat inc but it bears repeating THEY WILL NOT BUILD AN ENGINE FOR THE SMALL TRUCK MARKET. The reasons are simple, first cat has enough trouble meeting the epa emissions requirements on teh class 8 stuff (cat had to pay millions in fines back in 03 cause they couldn't make the engines meet those emissions for 6 months after the requirement), yes cat has deep pockets but it cost navistar something like 60 million dollars to get the 6.0 emissions compliant and I don't have the figures for the 6.4 but bet it's even higher, now in cats position they would be starting from scratch so it would be even more costly. Next they don't want to deal with the warrenty claims when people start putting tuners on their design and blowing it up just like the navistar/ford fight. It's just not worth it to that company plus they know if they put a small truck diesel engine out it can ruin the rep the company has (undeserved but still there none the less) if they start having major issues with them in the small trucks like the duramax and 6.0 did to GM and ford/navistar

Easssssssssssssyyy, there monsta.

Don't go crappin on ma kitty kats now:-missingt

Cat won't EVER build a light truck engine.

That doesn't mean they won't LICENCE someone else's engine.

Witness the Perkins engine in the Rigmaster class-8 APU. You can get it in Perkins green, or CAT yellow. The "CAT" engine is a Perkins engine with a coat of yellow paint and a CAT sticker. And a $400 higher price tag.

-blaine

Ya, I ran a CAT 3406 E for 4 years and the only problem we had was an injector stuck for some reason and they fixed it free. Id love to bolt a 4 cyl CAT up in my pickup. Bet it would run, those John Deerre engines do also.

Nothing runs like a Deere, or smells like a John.

Monster,

If memory serves, there was a joint IH-Ford task force focusing on the injectors, and specifically the O-rings, during the headache prone 6.0L launch. Now, I'm not saying it was International's fault as I used to work with a former Navistar buyer that maintained that Ford had demanded that they wouldn't pay the $100 royalty fee to CAT for the HEUI injectors and Navistar was forced to use its own design and rush it into production.

I'm actually a big fan of the Powerstrokes and firmly believe that some of the other Diesel engine builders get a little more credit that they deserve. I haven't ever seen a Powerstroke problem that was anywhere nearly as severe as the block cracking issues of a certain 4V inline 6 cyl.

Despite all the bad press on the 6.0L, Ford sold around 290,000 of them in 2006, almost double the volumes on the other two full size Diesel pickups.

In any case my 7.3 is here to stay as I haven't seen anything Diesel that I liked any better.

"Now, I'm not saying it was International's fault as I used to work with a former Navistar buyer that maintained that Ford had demanded that they wouldn't pay the $100 royalty fee to CAT for the HEUI injectors and Navistar was forced to use its own design and rush it into production."

You may have something there, even though Cat apparently continued to pursue Navistar about the royalty issue on the VT365 injection system, Navistar settled the dispute with Caterpillar by agreeing to buy some replacement parts and a good number of engines from Caterpillar. Some of these engines will be going into International truck and bus products that were formerly only available with International engines.

Here's the press release about Caterpillar and International settling their dispute;

"Pending Litigation Between The Companies Will Be Dismissed

Warrenville, IL (August 24, 2006) - Navistar International Corporation (NYSE: NAV), the nation’s largest combined commercial truck and mid-range diesel engine producer, announced today that it has reached an agreement with Caterpillar Inc. (NYSE:CAT) on a new ongoing business relationship that includes new licensing and supply agreements.

As part of the agreement, both companies have agreed to dismiss all pending litigation, some of which date back to 2001. Financial terms of the agreement are not being disclosed, but it is anticipated that the agreement will not have a material impact on Navistar’s financial position, cash flow or results of operations.
A major component of the agreement involves new supply agreements between the two companies that include on-highway truck engines, fuel injectors, remanufactured components and other products.

"This agreement sets in place the framework for further expansion of our long relationship with Caterpillar," said Daniel C. Ustian, Navistar chairman, president and chief executive officer. "I am extremely pleased that we have been able to reach agreement on issues that were a distraction to both companies, and can concentrate on working together to continue to build a productive and prosperous relationship."

"Navistar is a very important customer to Caterpillar, and I’m pleased we’re able to settle our differences and move forward in a positive way," said Jim Owens, Caterpillar chairman and chief executive officer. "This agreement provides a solid foundation for a continued long-term business relationship that benefits us both." "

cat alias
 

Thier small dozer and backhoe engines are Mfg by Mitsubishi. Why THEY don't have a half ton diesel blows my mind.

Could you imagine the commercials? By a mitsubishi diesel pickup. When caterpillar needs a small diesel, they turn to us...

Here's a thought for you, I just heard from a good source that Ford has bought controling interest in Cummins. That Dodge will be switching to another motor in the near future and that Ford engines will be built by Cummins. This info came from the Cummins service center here in Virgina. Any one else hear this????

:-X15 I find your "good source" to be very suspect.

they "SOLD" their interest in cummins a year ago,this was on the diesel stop .com site.

No no no, you heard it wrong, Cummins bought controlling interest in Ford. And since they have been supplying Dodge with engines, they are now going to supply Dodge with trucks as well. So that means that Dodge will be using Ford trucks and the Cummins engine. They will call them the Dodge F-250 and so on...

I heard this from a very reliable source as well...

Tim:-wink