OH No! Another Oil thread by a Newbie!
#46
11-10-2009, 09:26 AM
Mike:
A few thoughts:
A) If you are going to mess with extending the drain interval, the best thing to do is to wait until all warranties have expired.
B) Oil Analysis is very good, but at the end of the day, there are certain (lots of things) it doesn't look at that can cause trouble beyond particles and contaminants NOT picked up by any filter.
It is technically possible to re-refine used oil to remove the contaminants, but that is an industrial, not an on vehicle process.
C) Having said that, there is some latitude to mess around with extended drain intervals with high end European spec ACEA oils E-7 and above.
They have worked very hard to cut down on the need to drain / replace oil, extending drain intervals for average usage to well beyond North American standards.
So where I am sitting now is I am trying to get European spec oil on the market --- and even then --- it takes 2 or more drains to purge your engine (to a reasonable level) of the old oil.
There ought to be a happy medium between 75,000 miles, and the factory 7,500 mile interval.
Euro spec oil is suggesting the medium (with oil analysis every 2,500) of somewhere around 15,000 miles --- but I have not done the actual tests on this, or seen actual test runs with a reasonable sample of vehicles to say so....
I am hoping to be in touch with some of the Europeans who wrote the AECA specs and see what they will say in private.
A few thoughts:
A) If you are going to mess with extending the drain interval, the best thing to do is to wait until all warranties have expired.
B) Oil Analysis is very good, but at the end of the day, there are certain (lots of things) it doesn't look at that can cause trouble beyond particles and contaminants NOT picked up by any filter.
It is technically possible to re-refine used oil to remove the contaminants, but that is an industrial, not an on vehicle process.
C) Having said that, there is some latitude to mess around with extended drain intervals with high end European spec ACEA oils E-7 and above.
They have worked very hard to cut down on the need to drain / replace oil, extending drain intervals for average usage to well beyond North American standards.
So where I am sitting now is I am trying to get European spec oil on the market --- and even then --- it takes 2 or more drains to purge your engine (to a reasonable level) of the old oil.
There ought to be a happy medium between 75,000 miles, and the factory 7,500 mile interval.
Euro spec oil is suggesting the medium (with oil analysis every 2,500) of somewhere around 15,000 miles --- but I have not done the actual tests on this, or seen actual test runs with a reasonable sample of vehicles to say so....
I am hoping to be in touch with some of the Europeans who wrote the AECA specs and see what they will say in private.
#47
11-10-2009, 09:30 AM
Mike:
A few thoughts:
A) If you are going to mess with extending the drain interval, the best thing to do is to wait until all warranties have expired.
B) Oil Analysis is very good, but at the end of the day, there are certain (lots of things) it doesn't look at that can cause trouble beyond particles and contaminants NOT picked up by any filter.
It is technically possible to re-refine used oil to remove the contaminants, but that is an industrial, not an on vehicle process.
C) Having said that, there is some latitude to mess around with extended drain intervals with high end European spec ACEA oils E-7 and above.
They have worked very hard to cut down on the need to drain / replace oil, extending drain intervals for average usage to well beyond North American standards.
So where I am sitting now is I am trying to get European spec oil on the market --- and even then --- it takes 2 or more drains to purge your engine (to a reasonable level) of the old oil.
There ought to be a happy medium between 75,000 miles, and the factory 7,500 mile interval.
Euro spec oil is suggesting the medium (with oil analysis every 2,500) of somewhere around 15,000 miles --- but I have not done the actual tests on this, or seen actual test runs with a reasonable sample of vehicles to say so....
I am hoping to be in touch with some of the Europeans who wrote the AECA specs and see what they will say in private.
A few thoughts:
A) If you are going to mess with extending the drain interval, the best thing to do is to wait until all warranties have expired.
B) Oil Analysis is very good, but at the end of the day, there are certain (lots of things) it doesn't look at that can cause trouble beyond particles and contaminants NOT picked up by any filter.
It is technically possible to re-refine used oil to remove the contaminants, but that is an industrial, not an on vehicle process.
C) Having said that, there is some latitude to mess around with extended drain intervals with high end European spec ACEA oils E-7 and above.
They have worked very hard to cut down on the need to drain / replace oil, extending drain intervals for average usage to well beyond North American standards.
So where I am sitting now is I am trying to get European spec oil on the market --- and even then --- it takes 2 or more drains to purge your engine (to a reasonable level) of the old oil.
There ought to be a happy medium between 75,000 miles, and the factory 7,500 mile interval.
Euro spec oil is suggesting the medium (with oil analysis every 2,500) of somewhere around 15,000 miles --- but I have not done the actual tests on this, or seen actual test runs with a reasonable sample of vehicles to say so....
I am hoping to be in touch with some of the Europeans who wrote the AECA specs and see what they will say in private.
#48
11-10-2009, 10:11 AM
If so, how much advance warning does oil analysis give?
Is the decline gradual, or a sharp (fall off the cliff) shape?
How is the shear property best measured?
Is it measurable by a device "on vehicle"?
Please talk science and not speculation.
Where is the scientific testing data showing deterioration of your oil's shear resistance at 5,000 to 6,000 miles?
If that is true, why has FORD not recalled the vehicle and replaced the advice with a 4,000 mile oil change interval?
Last I checked, factory advice for "normal" service is still well above 6,000 miles.
Are you suggesting that Ford leaves no safety margin in their oil change interval specs?
There is no evidence to suggest that oil magically turn into useless muck at 7,001 mile or more.
I am trying to talk to the ACEA people to see how they deal with this issue --- and what are the properties and specs of AECA E series specs that deal with specifically this issue.
Do be patient --- I do not have the facts in yet but I am working on it.
#49
11-10-2009, 11:45 AM
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Thank you bismic! I take that as a compliment. I can put a good paragraph or two together when I have my head screwed on right!
I have to deal with an even greater issue when it comes to my Harley and dealing with the EGO's of most of the dealers and some of their service people. So I'm fully aware of issues when it comes to service.
It's bad enough I own a 2008 Ford Fusion too. It's an awesome carm I mean it's like the BatMobile with everything in it, but during July and August I smelled burning in it. Twice they tell me...sorry...we can't smell or find anything. 4 days after the last visit, there was a fire that started in the Left Seat electrics. SO...my insurance company allowed for all the investigations. They finally said they'd fix it...I have USAA and they have always been great with me. Ford General Counsel has said...so sorry...we have no responsibility...that's what you have insurance for. Now...mind you...their own techs couldn't find the issue...I reassured them what I smelled and they said "All you're smelling is leather"...Of course it burned 4 days after that! they didn't even take into consideration that their techs looked in only specific areas and listed as such in the tch report, and yet it burned in an entirely different area. So, I'm not so big on dealing with Ford right now and very leary of how they handle claims.
Mike
I have to deal with an even greater issue when it comes to my Harley and dealing with the EGO's of most of the dealers and some of their service people. So I'm fully aware of issues when it comes to service.
It's bad enough I own a 2008 Ford Fusion too. It's an awesome carm I mean it's like the BatMobile with everything in it, but during July and August I smelled burning in it. Twice they tell me...sorry...we can't smell or find anything. 4 days after the last visit, there was a fire that started in the Left Seat electrics. SO...my insurance company allowed for all the investigations. They finally said they'd fix it...I have USAA and they have always been great with me. Ford General Counsel has said...so sorry...we have no responsibility...that's what you have insurance for. Now...mind you...their own techs couldn't find the issue...I reassured them what I smelled and they said "All you're smelling is leather"...Of course it burned 4 days after that! they didn't even take into consideration that their techs looked in only specific areas and listed as such in the tch report, and yet it burned in an entirely different area. So, I'm not so big on dealing with Ford right now and very leary of how they handle claims.
Mike
#50
11-10-2009, 12:07 PM
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gearloose1...I actually am a huge fan of regular changes, mine will be probably at the 5k mark. While I like the idea of oil analysis, I don't thnk I would need it unless I decide to go above the 7,500 mile mark by Ford. I'm not a big one to take serious chances with fluid changes. Especially since I know own a 6.0 diesel!
I'm developing my own schedule checklist timetables according to my comfortability levels and driving habits. If I take my 4x4 off road to find the best fishing hole regularly and drive a number of times towing my bike from point A to B on a regular basis I'll definitely shorten the intervals between changing oil. I don't leave it idling much...the only time it idles is when I'm doing highway driving and I've just come off a long high speed run. If I take a small rest break for food or PIT STOP I'll leave it idling so the turbo won't go dry quickly after such a run. My remote start will turn the truck off after 12 minutes. I'm happy with that set up.
Of course, any ideas ya'll have would be greatly appreciated!
Mike
I'm developing my own schedule checklist timetables according to my comfortability levels and driving habits. If I take my 4x4 off road to find the best fishing hole regularly and drive a number of times towing my bike from point A to B on a regular basis I'll definitely shorten the intervals between changing oil. I don't leave it idling much...the only time it idles is when I'm doing highway driving and I've just come off a long high speed run. If I take a small rest break for food or PIT STOP I'll leave it idling so the turbo won't go dry quickly after such a run. My remote start will turn the truck off after 12 minutes. I'm happy with that set up.
Of course, any ideas ya'll have would be greatly appreciated!
Mike
#51
11-10-2009, 12:31 PM
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Thank you bismic! I take that as a compliment. I can put a good paragraph or two together when I have my head screwed on right!
I have to deal with an even greater issue when it comes to my Harley and dealing with the EGO's of most of the dealers and some of their service people. So I'm fully aware of issues when it comes to service.
It's bad enough I own a 2008 Ford Fusion too. It's an awesome car but during July and August I smelled burning in it. Twice they tell me...sorry...we can't anything. 4 days after the last visit, there was a fire that started in the Left Seat electrics. SO...my insurance company allowed for all the investigations. They finally said they'd fix it...I have USAA and they have always been great with me. Ford General Counsel has said...so sorry...we have no responsibility...that's what you have insurance for. Now...mind you...their own techs couldn't find the issue...I reassured them what I smelled and they said "All you're smelling is leather"...Of course it burned 4 days after that! So, I'm not so big on dealing with Ford right now and very leary of how they handle claims.
Mike
I have to deal with an even greater issue when it comes to my Harley and dealing with the EGO's of most of the dealers and some of their service people. So I'm fully aware of issues when it comes to service.
It's bad enough I own a 2008 Ford Fusion too. It's an awesome car but during July and August I smelled burning in it. Twice they tell me...sorry...we can't anything. 4 days after the last visit, there was a fire that started in the Left Seat electrics. SO...my insurance company allowed for all the investigations. They finally said they'd fix it...I have USAA and they have always been great with me. Ford General Counsel has said...so sorry...we have no responsibility...that's what you have insurance for. Now...mind you...their own techs couldn't find the issue...I reassured them what I smelled and they said "All you're smelling is leather"...Of course it burned 4 days after that! So, I'm not so big on dealing with Ford right now and very leary of how they handle claims.
Mike
#52
11-10-2009, 12:49 PM
From your long list of questions I will start over from the top. Shear "stability" is a measure of the amount of viscosity an oil may lose during operation. The standard test method is ASTM D445.
Oil has 3 states of lubrication, Hydrodynamic, mixed film, and boundary. Hydrodynamic is oil flowing between to surfaces. Mixed film is oil flow reduced from pressure between the two surfaces. Boundary is relying on anti-wear additives.
Diesels create higher levels of acid, acid breaks down the oil causing it to oxidize which degrades the shear stability.
Follow the manufacture guidelines for oil recommendations and service intervals, they did not make recommendations based on theory. Long range interval oil changes for the 6.0L is not recommended because the oil has 2 roles, engine lubrication and high pressure oil driven fuel injections.
Long oil change intervals will increase bearing wear and create an injector imbalance.
#53
11-10-2009, 01:28 PM
From your long list of questions I will start over from the top. Shear "stability" is a measure of the amount of viscosity an oil may lose during operation. The standard test method is ASTM D445.
Oil has 3 states of lubrication, Hydrodynamic, mixed film, and boundary. Hydrodynamic is oil flowing between to surfaces. Mixed film is oil flow reduced from pressure between the two surfaces. Boundary is relying on anti-wear additives.
Diesels create higher levels of acid, acid breaks down the oil causing it to oxidize which degrades the shear stability.
Follow the manufacture guidelines for oil recommendations and service intervals, they did not make recommendations based on theory. Long range interval oil changes for the 6.0L is not recommended because the oil has 2 roles, engine lubrication and high pressure oil driven fuel injections.
Long oil change intervals will increase bearing wear and create an injector imbalance.
Oil has 3 states of lubrication, Hydrodynamic, mixed film, and boundary. Hydrodynamic is oil flowing between to surfaces. Mixed film is oil flow reduced from pressure between the two surfaces. Boundary is relying on anti-wear additives.
Diesels create higher levels of acid, acid breaks down the oil causing it to oxidize which degrades the shear stability.
Follow the manufacture guidelines for oil recommendations and service intervals, they did not make recommendations based on theory. Long range interval oil changes for the 6.0L is not recommended because the oil has 2 roles, engine lubrication and high pressure oil driven fuel injections.
Long oil change intervals will increase bearing wear and create an injector imbalance.
BTW Mike (69cj) My truck hates synthetic, remember??
#54
11-10-2009, 02:08 PM
Yes I do. So far, 1st oil change with it, mine is doing O K. It does appear to be holding more soot or whatever in suspension. It seems to have gotten visibly dirtier sooner. I am going to consider this as a good sign. Hopefully.
#55
11-10-2009, 02:27 PM
#57
11-10-2009, 03:03 PM
I am now running syn. oil for a couple of reasons, however, I think any of the major brand oils with the proper API rating and proper change interval will give satisfactory service. Some trucks do seem to like syn. better and others, like Tim's, prefer dino. That is what makes the world go round. My main reason for syn. is I think it has less chance of coking in the super hot areas such as the turbo.
#58
11-10-2009, 05:50 PM
OK, here is the equivalent European Test:
<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td nowrap="nowrap">CEC L-36-90</td> <td>The Measurement of Lubricants Dynamic Viscosity under Conditions High Shear (Ravenfield Viscometer)</td> <td>4</td> <td>15 April 2009</td></tr></tbody></table>
ACEA A3B4-08
The Lubrizol Corporation
E9-08 is the latest heavy duty diesel standard.
Can you give me a direct compare as to the test methodology between ASTM D445 vs. CEC L-36-90?
CEC charges 1,000 euros for a copy of this document!
So someone that has it... please tell us.
My understanding is CEC L-36-90 is far more rigorous than the ASTM D445.
Facts please.
#59
11-10-2009, 06:11 PM
OK, here is the equivalent European Test:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD noWrap>CEC L-36-90</TD><TD>The Measurement of Lubricants Dynamic Viscosity under Conditions High Shear (Ravenfield Viscometer)</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>15 April 2009</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
ACEA A3B4-08
The Lubrizol Corporation
E9-08 is the latest heavy duty diesel standard.
Can you give me a direct compare as to the test methodology between ASTM D445 vs. CEC L-36-90?
CEC charges 1,000 euros for a copy of this document!
So someone that has it... please tell us.
My understanding is CEC L-36-90 is far more rigorous than the ASTM D445.
Facts please.
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD noWrap>CEC L-36-90</TD><TD>The Measurement of Lubricants Dynamic Viscosity under Conditions High Shear (Ravenfield Viscometer)</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>15 April 2009</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
ACEA A3B4-08
The Lubrizol Corporation
E9-08 is the latest heavy duty diesel standard.
Can you give me a direct compare as to the test methodology between ASTM D445 vs. CEC L-36-90?
CEC charges 1,000 euros for a copy of this document!
So someone that has it... please tell us.
My understanding is CEC L-36-90 is far more rigorous than the ASTM D445.
Facts please.
#60
11-10-2009, 06:13 PM
Join Date: Jul 2009
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