sorry my home and my personal effects are not equal to secrets. I have no secrets in my home. Why should I? I do not keep things I would be ashamed of anyone finding in the event of my death.
when you tell people that the initiation is secret and you just cant tell that is pouring a gallon of gas on skeptics fires. There is nothing similar to that and what I have in my drawers of my nightstand or in my journals. I would tell anyone because I do not have anything to hide. Its like big whoop. Can you understand that?
I have never believed in secrets between a husband and a wife especially about what they do away from the house. leads to some discord. Especially in todays times.
I would not join the eastern star because i would feel it was no "secret" and answer questions asked and tell what happened Just as many who left the masons have. Why? because I for one hate secrets. I do not wish to live a secretive life. Secrets are dangerous.
I do not think those who have left for whatever reason are sad or "lost" they just didn't feel it was where they need to be. I think they have something to say and there will be people who want to hear it.
When y'all speak of false information being talked about the information is what former masons have wrote, lectured or wrote papers about. They are all 90% in accordance of masonic culture so I doubt they would all be wrong.
I just say whatever will be will be but I see a lot more minds being put in the "hmmmm" mode.
I guess what it boils down to is if there is nothing strange going on then you guys would say hey we do this during initiation but our hand shake is secret. I as the devils advocate in so many things see that yes you do good things and deeds and make sure everyone knows about them but I believe in the bible there is something about doing things in a prideful boastful way. You shouldnt do things to say hey look at me. You should just do them and not worry about who knows you did it. How do I put it? maybe these deeds are just put out there to deflect the doubting minds. just playing DA nothing personal

 

There is a first time for everything and this is the first time I disagree with you HB. But, in my opinion, you are way off base with regard to the Masons. My dad has been a Mason for close to 60 years and he still goes to lodge meetings twice a month. I've never heard even the slightest bit of resentment or even interest from my mother caused by him going. That's his thing and she's fine with it.

What they do there is a secret and that is fine - it's really nobody's business what happens in those meetings except for those who attend, as long as what they do doesn't harm anyone. I don't see what the big deal is. It seems to me that the problems you had were with the man, not the Mason.

And to slam them for doing charitable work is wrong. I severely doubt they do it just so they can take credit for doing so. I'm sure every one of them could find something better to do than pat themselves on the back.

 

For me, this will be where I will have to ‘agree to disagree’. I know there is nothing I can say that would change your philosophy just as there is nothing you can do to change mine. From here, it becomes a personal point of view topic of debate and as you say, is nothing personal.

As I understand your position on living an open book life, I do not totally believe the same as you. I believe there are personal events and items in each person’s life that are private and no one else’s business. Depending on your point of view, these could be considered secrets. For that, there are personal secrets that are no one’s business besides those that I choose to let them be known to. You may consider that wrong, but so be it.

As far as secrets between a husband and wife, I believe the topic at hand could really show more of a trust issue between the man and woman that needs to be addressed before worrying about what the secrets of Masonry are. I believe I can speak for my wife when I say she has never second guessed me when I was at any gathering for my lodge or the Shrine. And for that, she has attended many of those events the same as many other wives. But when something like a meeting or discussion of the inner workings came about, she understands that there are things she is not privy to. My wife trusts me and knows me as a person to know I would not be involved in something negative or wrong. I believe there are two different scenarios between your position and my wife’s when it comes to Masonry. It could probably be attributed to the introduction and portrayal of Masonry between how I might do it and how your ex might have done it. You say it leads to discord, especially in today’s times. I agree totally because it shows that in general people feel less and less trustworthy of others in life, especially those they are suppose to feel so much for. If I was worried I could not trust my partner to go somewhere away from the house to a meeting without me because I didn’t trust the group he/she was meeting with, I think I would be looking a little deeper at the relationship as there is definitely a trust issue there for the other person’s decision making skills. (I mean that in general dialogue and not pointed at you in any way)

Yes, there are many that have become Masons and for one reason or another have left. Many have written accounts and told things about Masonry. But I have to beg the question: You are reading or listening to a person who took an oath on their good name and promised to never speak of what they are privy to. So for this person that thinks nothing of their name and breaks their own word – are you willing to actually believe what they have to say? If they are willing to look me in the eye and swear to me they will never disclose what they learn, are you willing to accept everything they say as the truth? Maybe Masonry was not for them and they did not agree. That does not deter from the fact that they gave their word to not disclose what they know and they willingly have made the choice to do that. To me, that shows a lot about the person, whether what they say is the truth or not. If it was 90% in accordance with Masonic culture, they would still uphold their word and remain silent and jsut comment that it was not for them.

I am not going to say whether what they say is the truth or a lie – I will leave that decision to you. But for me, I take my name very seriously and will never do anything that would put a smudge on that. Maybe I am old school, but I still believe in living in a world that when a man gives you his word, he will stand behind that. For those that have left and decide to break their word, I have no use for that person and would never listen to someone like that and accept they are telling the truth.

The last point I would like to cover is that of boasting ourselves on accomplishments. I don’t see where you are coming from with this as I do not think anything in this discussion was reflected as boasting or bragging. As I sit here and reflect on my life in Masonry, I cannot think of a time where I pushed to make sure people noticed me because of my part in Masonry, nor have I noticed where Masonic groups have done this in the media. If you are referring to my previous posts concerning what myself and lodge participates in, I would ask that you reread for the context as someone asked what a lodge does and what it stands for. What I gave was a description of that, not a list of bragging rights. If it was read as that, it was not my intention.

For me, this might be where I will exit the conversation in regards to debating whether or not you (or anyone) believe in the intentions of Masonic organizations. I see it as an impasse, so I will have to leave it as I began this post – we will have to agree to disagree. I could do a tell-all about everything known in Masonry from the time you turn in your petition to the time you leave this world and all that would happen is that people would tell me I am making up stories to cover something else up - just as you (the devil's advocate) imply that the charitable work done is just a cover story to conceal a darker truth. I know for myself that as long as Masonry and the Shrine stand for the beliefs and purpose they have now, I will forever be a proud member.

 

Ditto! But for anyone to say that any charitable acts or deeds performed by Masons are done only to be publicly recognized is absurd. The only way people associate with the Shriners is because of the free treatment and care they give to those in need at their hospitals. Masons, both in and out of the lodges, do great services for the community, and each other. Most of these the average person does not know about. And as far as the " secrets "; it is a matter of trust and a man's word. These so-called experts to write articles and defame Masons are men who have gone against their own word. Are they believeable.............do they boast they were once Masons to get you to read their book............are they the kind of men you would trust? I am proud to be a Mason, to associate with men from all walks of life who are Masons, and will continue to do so in the future. I also agree that for me the discussion is over, as we are discussing something most of you really know nothing about. Falsehoods, assumptions, and incorrect information are of no value in this discussion.

 

all nonsense in my opinion what in the world could be so secrative that you could not tell the mother of your children your soulmate your life partner or anyone else you hold dear to you little secrets drive big wedges and create allot of hard feeling thats my touchy feely coment for the year all in all just a big bunch of nonsese to me

 

Like Buck and Cobra, I'm signing out of this thread but couldn't let this last post go.....

IF you don't like the idea of keeping anything from your wife/kids/mother/significant other, IF you aren't the kind of person who can make an oath and actually intend to honor that oath, or IF you have an less-than-stable relationship that wouldn't allow you to participate THEN YOU probably shouldn't be joining a fraternal organization of any kind.

But, please don't insult the many millions of people who have done so just because YOU THINK it is "a bunch of nonsense".

Out.

 

honestly you sir are quite wrong i am not about to get into some long drawn out argument with you i simply stated MY PERSONAL BELIFES the same as you have end of conversation

 

Ladies and gentlemen,

Let's not let this turn into a fight or personal attack thread. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. While you may not agree with someone else's opinion, try not to let emotions overrule. Even though this is a topic that is close to home for me, I still try and keep my emotions in check and talk about it in a civil manner. Please keep in mind what the original author of the thread was wanting this thread to be about.

After thinking about this thread for a while (even at work actually ), I think what most do not understand and what is sometimes portayed poorly is that Masonry is not all about what is secret or even what is what some would consider sacred to us. I think even I have not done the best of job in trying to explain my thoughts. If people knew the information that we take the oath not to openly reveal, they would realize that with some study, the information is already open to people (if you know where to look and what context to read it in.) The initial pretext of the oath comes from building the character of a person into being someone that trustworthy and can be counted on to do what they say they will do.

It is not a matter of that we don't want people to know what we know. If that were the case, Masonry would only be a fraternity that would accept admittance through invitation. That is not the case. The Masonic saying "To Be One, Ask One" is very dominant in that we do not solicite nor invite someone to be a Mason. Joining the fraternity is only allowed by the individual coming to us on their own and taking the initiative themselves. Many of us have mentioned that we are second or third generation Masons. I can pretty much guarantee that most if not all of us were never pressured or pushed to join. We grew up knowing a family member or friend was a member and because of something about that person(s), it intrigued us to take the steps to follow on the same path and be part of the same group.

I don't know how else to really sum up my thoughts. Masonry for me was never about knowing something that other people do not know. For me, it was about being the type of person and having the positive qualities and characteristics that I saw in my father and the people I knew to be Masons and respected. I wanted to better myself and knew that if these qualities might be found through Masonry, then I wanted to follow that path.

 

Very well said David.

 

thank you for your insight sir. few people i know have gone as far to enlighten people on the dealings of your organization

 

bwahahahaha

not that cannot be applied universally....

(sarcasm)

 

didnt he pitch for los angeles?

 

Taking an oath to keep state secrets is one thing. Taking an oath to hear about Zontar* is another. I have taken an oath, and I have a clearance. However, if some of the secrets I hear violate law or constitution, I am protected to divulge them (whistleblower act)

If the oath is to not divulge that a group dances around a flaming phallic symbol at night chanting 'jello...jello' then breaking that would be....rational. If we dont expose the whack jobs we end up doing stuff like invading iraq and banning cuban cigars.

still dont confuse this with promising to not tell everyone that your friend confided in you that he prefers sex with flaming farm animals. A society, fraternity, or religion that has secrets is UNIVERSALLY not much good and does more harm than good. To its own members generally.

All I can suggest is that folks read CRITICAL history of any 'secret organization', not the history that might be published by same.

and you will find that the vast majority of the members are blissfully unaware of what the organization was originally tasked for and yes, are salt of the earth people. (again, I didnt hint at the mormon-mason connection cuz I was bored)





* = thing from venus

 

That is exactly why I have pursued the lodge.

 

I said I was playing devils advocate.
If you choose to belong to the Masons go for it. Just as Masons are speaking for their side I was speaking for my side such as it is.
I am not degrading what good deeds y'all do. I was just making the point that some see it as deflecting from the "secretive" nature of the organization.
My relationship with my ex ended because he couldn't keep an oath. Well maybe to the Masons but not to be faithful. So he isn't/wasn't that great at keeping a promise. I am one I do not believe in secrets between two people because I am an open book. I may be in error by wishing my mate to be but that is me. My ex was a mason when I met him and I stayed with him as a mason and no I didn't trash him for what he did. Did I believe in what he was doing? It was not my thing and there were some issues about it but I am a little beyond that. Most of it was teasing.

I will hold my stand that the odds that hundreds of men who have left the organization would all share the same or almost the same story of the internal work of the Masons would be unfathomable. But just my opinion. If I am wrong I stand corrected.

I must go I need to go back to my bible and reread it for time number three for the mention of Hiram Abiff. Can any masons help me with the verse he may be in? Im lost. maybe y'all can help me out here. I would also like to have some clarification...If as a Christian you believe that Jesus is our Lord and Savior do the masons have a belief that there is a different view of entry into heaven?