Please tell me how higher octane burns cleaner! Think you are trying to make a point that has no foundation, please go look up what octane really is. Makes no sense!

Ethanol that is used in vehicles strictly made for Ethanol is okay, you are dealing with a hybrid flex fuel vehicle, where compression, fuel delivery and air inductiion is being used for both gasoline and E85. So to come to your conclusions that Ethanol should be the same in flex fuel vehicle is way off base.
Your NHRA, and Indy cars runs a heck of lot more compression than your street vehicle, have better control over fuel metering, usually consit of foreced induction etc.
So lets not mix apples to oranges here.
In order for Ethanol to burn to it's full potential, sinmce there is less energy per same volume as compared to gasoline, compression has to be raised, to take advanage of the 105 octane, fuel delivery has to allow more volume then compared to gas useage vehicles. Valve timing needs to be tweaked to allow full potential of ethanol.

So to say there are no issues based on NHRA and Indy cars is a poor example.

You said it yourself Flex fuel vehicles have shorter oil drain intervals then gasoline, that should tell you a whole lot there in itself!

So believe what you want! But it's an issue and BTW ethanol useage in the marine industry is causing havic in itself. Not only are they have engine performance issues, but water absorbtion, fiberglass fuel tanks disolving and the list goes on and on!

 

Thats what concerned me from the beginning, one of my friends father owns a large marina in upstate NY and lost a multi million dollar lawsuit because as I recall they had a 20% blend (this was long before E85 was even available). I was always leery of ethanol since then.

 

I know it's a nightmare!

 

After reading this thread I went out and checked on my 05 Mustang that I converted to run on E85 (tune and injector size increase only) and found the whole thing dissolved in the driveway. All that is left from the E85 eating into it was a yellow puddle!


In all seriousness, running E85 in a FFV is nothing to worry about. Just follow the maintenance guidlines and fill her up. The mileage does go down, but if the price difference is enough ($2.99/gal for E85 here vs. $3.75 for 87) then there is no reason not to. My first fill up on my 08 FX4 was E85. I'm looking into the tuning right now because I am going to add a JLT intake and SCT tuner to the truck to get rid of the Drive by Wire lag among other things. (truck staying in closed loop for 7-8 seconds after WOT starts, and running very rich once going into open loop for instance)

 

using your prices for gas/e85 and my truck's actual MPG...also, assume 30 gallon tank. I actually get closer to 20 mpg highway, but most people get 18ish highway.

I used highway mileage since the math is easier. The stuff below works out about the same when using city MPG #'s.

E8587 Octane....540 (87 octane)
..- 360 (E85)
..._______
.= 180 mile/tank difference





assume 4x month fillup with 30 gallons.

= 720 miles/month difference between E85 and 87 octane.


so far, the E85 has "saved" you $88.00...but what happens when you account for the roughly 720 miles that 87 octane would get over the E85.

87 octane will:
get you 2,160 miles/month at $448.00 with 4 fill-ups

E85 will:
get you 1,440 miles/month at $360.00 with 4 fill-ups
the remaining 720 miles/month will cost you an additional $179.40 (2 more tanks of E85)


therefore, E85 will cost an additional $92.00/month to use. Hardly economical.


sorry if I burst anyones pipe dream. E85 is not your friend, and it does not save you any money. This example has $0.75 difference between the 2. The amount of $$$ you will spend increases dramatically when the difference is even smaller...say $0.20 to $0.40 / gallon difference

 

I am not getting 12mpg on the highway with E85. I am getting 12mpg in town so the numbers above you calculated the cost with are off. I have not driven and highway trips on gasoline or E85 so far. I'll do some calculations based on the range I have gotten out of the truck driving in town so far on both E85 and gasoline

My normal fillup is about 22gallons. I have gotten around 350 miles from 22 gallons of gasoline and 280 from E85. As I stated earlier I fill up with E85 for $2.99 and regular is going for around $3.65 from what I saw yesterday. Let's do some math based on that.

First we will go through the gasoline scenario.

22gallons of gasoline X $3.65= $80.30 per fillup average
$80.30 average fillup/350 mile range= $0.229 per mile average


Now lets look at E85
22 gallons of E85 X $2.99= $65.78 per fillup average
$65.78 average fillup/280 mile range=$0.234 per mile average

So yes there is a net loss from my experience so far with my Truck. The loss is $0.005/mile Multiply that loss by 12,00 miles per year estimated driving and I have lost a whopping $60 a year by not sending all of my hard earned money to foreign oil.

One part of the equation that hasn't been put into play is the fact that E85 changes blends depending on weather and region. There are 3 distinct blends of E85. Blend 1 carries a miniumum of E80, meaning that the fuel contains 80%ethanol to gasoline ratio. This is the blend that most of us see during the summer months. Then blend 2 is a carries a minumum of E74. Then finally blend 3 has a minimum of E70. This is done to counteract the poor cold start characteristics of burning ethanol. As the ethanol content goes down during the fall and winter months you fuel mileage will actually go up so it scews ALL of the numbers people have been throwing out there on whether or not running E85 in a FFV is worth it from a price standpoint or not. You can view what blend of E85 your area has by going to this link E85 Mustangs.com - Regional Fuel Chart by state

I will say that this is my first Factory FFV ( I converted my 05 Mustang and haven't looked back since. Especially after the supercharger goes on this fall and I can make for al practical purposes all the boost the supercharger will put out without having to pay upwards of $10/gallon for race fuel, plus it is available at my local gas stations.

So far my mileage estimates are only from owning my F150 for less than a week. I have just over 1,000 miles on it in that time so I would expect the mileage to increase for both gasoline and E85 as the truck breaks in. I really don't run E85 in the F150 at least to save money, I do that in the Mustang, and not to save money against even premium gas. I run E85 in the Mustang to save money vs. race fuel. I run E85 in the F150 because it doesn't send every dollar I spend on fuel to foreign oil.

On other note is that I many people (including myself) have been able to pickup around 10rwhp and 10rwtq from going from a 93 octane tune to and E85 tune on the 05+ Mustang GT (4.6 3v). That should mean that with proper tuning more power than that should be able to be had from a tune for the F150 FFV in an 87 going from 87 to E85. Not sure how many of you that have tuners on your trucks elect to run 93 octane tunes. If you do, and then compare the cost per gallon of premium compared to E85 then you actually do save money. Now is that negated by the extra maintenance that Ford calls for when running E85 more than 50% of the time, quite possibly, but it does change the numbers all the same.

 

Tylus,

I will agree but also disagree with your statement. Depending on the cost and blend of E85 compared to the cost of 87 octane gasoline, you could save money but could lose money. Right now 87 is running $3.75, while E85 is running $2.68 at the only two stations I frequent locally. So E85 is a savings of $1.07 per gallon and the closest I've seen E85 & 87 priced locally is $.65, which was Spring/Summer 2007.

Now mpg's will vary depending on your driving style and environment. From my experience, city driving with E85 saves me, but hwy driving it's better to use 87 octane. I've posted within this thread on page #3 and also in a few other threads regarding E85. Since getting my '06 Screw in 12/06 and having just over 16K miles, I've done plenty of experimenting and calculations on my mpg difference between the two fuels. Some are E85 positive, some are E85 negative.

If you do run E85 all the time (or at least 50% of the time), Ford recommends changing your oil every 3K miles, while on 87 octane, they recommend 5K miles. So you do need to calculate the cost of increased oil changes into your usage of E85. But to me, I always have and always will change my oil at 3K miles, no matter what fuel I use. Some may say I'm just wasting my money, but oh well. It's my cash and I'm comfortable with the 3K changes & rotations.

So bottom line is, E85 can save you, but could also cost you. A lot of factors to review before understanding if E85 is cost effective for you or not. Some will use E85 simply to support local companies/workers and keep the money state side, others for the green aspect. I use E85 for all of the above when it is cost effective.

 

I totally agree with you Justin. Sometimes it will save you money, sometimes it will not save you money, but bottom line, saving money isn't going to be anyone's main reason for saving money.

 

I do not know for sure if E85 will kill your system or not. From experience I ran E-85 a lot in my old 92 f150 4.9. I saw very little problems. She ran fine. I never filled it up but I would keep the mix 60Gas-40E85 or 50-50. I did this for years. I have not tried this in my new truck yet. 2006 f150 5.4. She is not an E-85 vehichle. do not know if I want to try it at all.

 

I've never seen a difference like that. The best I saw before moving was maybe $0.50/gallon difference.

 

I wasn't "creating" #'s when I put that 12 mpg on the highway. Dead serious. I was getting 18-19 mpg every single tank with a few 20-21 mpg tanks until I reached Denver. Filled up with E85 somewhere around Colorado Springs. Next tank was 12 something MPG. I thought I had messed up the mileage thingy. Then it happened again...and then a third time. It was 5 tanks in total before I got my MPG back in the 17+ mpg on the highway range. This was all on a 4 lane highway with the cruise set at 70ish mph.

I think you will be very peeved with the E85 on the highway MPG. I'm not the only person to have gotten horrible MPG with that CRAP.

The 30 gallons I used in my math is based upon the 30 gallon tank that most F-150's have. The 27 gallon isn't as prevalent...and neither is the 35 (37?) gallon tank. Rounding up makes the math easier than just arbitrarily picking a random # like 22. The results are the same...just correspondingly higher.
you should check your math and actually finish the whole calculation

280 miles/tank (e85)
350 miles/tank (87 octane)

22 gallons * $2.99/gallon = $66.00
22 gallons * $3.65/gallons = $80.00

*4 fill-ups per month (gasoline used)
E85 = $264.00
87 = $320.00

*4 mileage per tank(mileage achieved)
E85 = 1,120 miles
87 = 1,400 miles

so, a total of 280 miles fewer are possible using E85.

now add another tank of E85 (22 gallons = 280 miles) to equal the 87 octane. that will cost you $66 additional.

so the total E85 usage per month equals $330.00 using your #'s. That is a $10.00/month and $120.00/year difference to use a "gas" that requires more fill-ups and a more demanding maintenance schedule.




Like I stated, Cheaper doesn't = better. I would rather pay the $14.00 more per tank and get another 1/4 tank worth of driving

than pay the $14.00 less per tank and have to fill up more often with fewer miles driven...and actually be paying more overall

 

You are right there is a net loss based on my numbers, about $0.006\mile or 6\10 of a penny. I only drive about 1,000 miles per month so my net loss is $72. If I can't afford that then I shouldn't have bought a damn truck in the first place! lol

Plus once tuned I am extremely confident I can make the same power, if not slightly more on E85 than if I was running a 93 octane tune, since it isn't a problem for me to do that with my Mustang (same heads, same cams, only a different intake, throttle body, and more cubic inches.

 

We dont even have any E85 pumps in Memphis so i dont even have the option.

 

Here in the Denver Metro area, the average used to be more commonly around $.65-$.70 until gasoline prices started rising earlier this year. When 87 octane was around $2.69-$2.99 locally, E85 ranged from $1.99-$2.35. Remember filling up with E85 after many Denver Broncos games last season for $1.99, that was great! While I've seen 87 jump into the mid $4 range, which it has since come back to $3.75, I have never seen E85 higher than $2.96. May depend on the station you go to, but I only purchase my fuel from one of two stations.

I agree with the E85 & highway statement. If I know I'll be driving on the highway, I'll avoid E85 at all costs. EPA rating for the F150 5.4L on the hwy using E85 is 13mpgs. I usually get 13-14 hwy on E85 and feel the 17-19 I can achieve using 87 on the hwy much better. Now in the city, E85 usually gets me 11-13mpg, 87 gets me 13-15. Of course give or take a few tenths of a gallon here or there depending on my driving style.

Now I like E85, when cost effective due to the green aspect, supporting the local CO companies and employees, not sending my $ to the middle east, also the slight increase in power (seat of the pants).

Now if a manufacturer can make a variable compression motor, E85 will be well worth it. If you could boost the compression of the 5.4L for optimal usage of E85, then you'd get more power out of the motor and actually achieve better fuel mileage than using 87 octane. So the product is there, just need the technology to advance enough to use it to it's fullest. So it's not crap fuel, just crap technology.

 

Variable compression motors sound nice, but no clue on how that would actually work. Now a Flex fuel Ecotec motor would be the cat's meow, since you can vary the effective compression ratio with a turbo by increasing the boost to the motor. A turbocharged FFV is the holy grail IMO.