Ok boys, got my pulley off and it measures a whoppin 7.25" and the gm pulley I'm gonna make work as a test is 5.75". So an 1.5" less that the belt has to travel to turn the pump/fan oughta do somethin for my cooling. Now granted its winter now and I can't get the temps to climb like the summer but I can leave this pulley on till then. I'm still in the search for a 5.75"-6" pulley that is dual belt and 2.5" deep.

 

Ok, got my 5 7/8" 2v pulley and man does my fan grab some air now. I came up with quite a theory. Your vehicle is sitting there warming up. Prior to the thermostat opening, the fan is slipping on the fan clutch since there is no heat to activate it. Then the thermostat proceeds to open and the clutch locks up due to the heat. You shut the vehicle off with the clutch engaged and after the engine has stopped, you grab the fan to find that is slips and will spin about a half a revolution before stopping. But I thought it was just locked up? Now I know that no clutch locks up the fan 100% but it does lock it up 80% or so. So! My question/point is, does it take revolutional speed to lock the clutch with the signal of the heat? I think it does. I had this same clutch on there with my 7.25" pulley with no results of it locking up at idle with temps in the range of 215. Now it locks up like crazy and lets go when revving. I havent' had time to allow the truck to rev and heat up to see if it locks up when the thermostat opens but I'm hoping that it will. I'm driving to atlanta tomorrow so I'll find something out one way or another. What do you think? Crazy? Am I going nuts?

 

Did you ever compare pulley sizes to the damper pulley?

 

With that 26% overdriven water pump the pump will be turning over 5,040 rpm's when the motors at 4,000. Bearing life will be shortened with the possibility of pump cavitation problems. Maybe you'll have the overheating under control but there must be a reason why overheating without your pump speed increase. I'm thinking maybe the heads or block have a thin spot somewhere. You ever run a wire checking for the head gasket blocking the front passages?

 

damper pulley is 6.75" and the original waterpump pulley was 7.25" so not exactly a 1:1 ratio. Rounded off, the waterpump pulley now is .75" smaller than the crank pulley which I can't see causing me any problemss. I'm not racing the thing. Shoot I just want it to stay cool if I have to leave it running for 15 mins or so by itself!! Is that too much to ask for!?!? Be it, this is all summer time problems too. I don't have a problem at all this time of year. It could idle all day long with not problems. Never ran the wire through the intake/heads. I didn't see a need to. I knew towards the end here that I was not getting any air flow over the rad so why look somewhere else. I needed air so I got some air and coolant flow for free. Plus I'm gonna have a sweet looking 2v system goin through my pump and alt. That just looks more pro to me for some reason. Ok I'm tired. Been up since 7 yesterday morning and just got finished finishing the pulley setup b/c I'm leavin later in the morning.

 

Hi Pal,

I have to sympathise with you for two reasons. First, I have the same problem you do. I'm running a 390 Police Interceptorin in a 1951 Ford truck with a ton of open grill space and an open bottom. I run a 160 thermo, 50/50, the truck IS timed correctly, and the engine is new (2000miles) transmission is new (C-6) radiator, water pump, belts, fan clutch, 7 blade t-bird fan, all new. I'm running a single belt for water pump/alternator/crank pulley all new... No emissions

I drive down the interstate in any temp at 160 degrees all day (heater doesn't warm up enough) BUT when I pull off into the streets with signal lights, or are just driving residential/stop and go, or get into slow traffic (SO. Calif) that temp gauge starts to creep up and up and up until it pegs on hot. In the 51 there are no numbers.

Now I'm with you...I'm worried I'm burning up my engine. And unfortunately all these guys are off on tangents and can't give you a real technical answer. I may not be able to either but I did hear something that tended to make sense. I was told to check the diameter of my crank shaft pully, and the pulley on the water pump. I can't confirm this, but I was told that if the water pump is turning too fast (ie crank shaft pulley too big, water pump pulley too small or combo of both) the coolant doesn't get enough time in the radiator at low rpm to cool with no air flowing over the engine to cool it AND THE OIL PAN. I am working on this and will let you know. Of note: the problem is lessening as the engine breaks in more....!

BUT, as someone who has worked on engines and flown military airplanes with recips, and worked on those engines as well, anyone who tells you that it doesn't matter how hot an engine gets and the hotter the better - is a fool.

A piston powered engine is cooled by coolant (air or liquid) AND its lubricant (oil) flow. IT IS DESIGNED TO OPERATE AT AN OPTIMUM TEMPURATURE. If it gets too hot, parts expand, dissimilar metals (aluminum and iron) expand at exponentially different rates, the lubricant gets hotter and thinner and provides less lubrication and the engine will definately wear significantly faster - if not be damaged outright - warping, siezing, etc.

The approach I'm taking with my truck is to check the speed of the water pump first and fan (pulleys). Then, I'm going to relocate the transmission cooler to provide more radiator surface area with cool air, I may remove the stock coolant recovery/overflow tank (the one between the engine and radiator).

I'll let you know what happens. But you might think about these few things.

Good luck,
Dan

 

One word, Shroud. Are your running one. If not that is a least part of your problem, maybe all of it. The shroud is for low speed running, the shroud makes all the air pulled by the fan go thru the radiator. FYI, the only way coolant can go thru the radiator to fast to cool, is either no thermostat or the thermostat is temped so low that it stays open all the time and even then the too fast deal is unlikey with just an open thermostat. Also if you are running the '51 gauge then you need to run a '51 engine temp sensor. Otherwise the gauge will read wrong. Your heater not getting warm enough with a 160 thermostat means either a plugged heater core or hose, because 160 degrees is damn hot. Get yourself an infared temp sensor gun and get a true reading. A factory temp gauge is always inaccurate and a mismatch between sensor and gauge will tell you just about anything.

 

Wow what a crazy thread! :)

I -was- having the same trouble with my rather-stock 360 and fixed it with a Flow Kooler water pump. They are designed for higher flow at lower RPMs.

Art Krewat, I'm with you on the pulley sizes... pump is ~6+1/2" and the crank is ~7" (not the outside diameter of them but instead the-belt-riding diameter) and they are within about 1/8" of each other.

Different water pump castings/housings will vary the distance between the pulleys. Certain castings won't line the bypass tubes up neither! :/

There ain't no changing my pulleys both being triples. Hunted my butt off just finding a spare PS pulley with the same inset as mine and found it on an old Ford car without an FE.

One summer I went through 4 rebuilt water pumps opening them up and returning them because the fins on the cast iron impellers were rusted away. Went with a new water pump that had a steel impeller. That still didn't fix the trouble all the way tho.

Does anyone else take the stuff they buy apart and go through it before installing it or is it just me? :/

Saw Flow Kooler brand pumps on Summit's website and looked into those.
They make both aluminum and cast iron for the FE and two different versions...

One with the standard 6 fin impeller with their piece of sheet metal pop riveted to the impeller and a 12 fin model with the piece of sheet metal pop riveted to the impeller also.

I bought the 12 fin model. Summit didn't describe worth anything what was what... had to find that information on Flow Kooler's site and write down the model numbers there, then buy it from Summit.

I also bought the "kit" to add to my now-spare "new" water pump.

The 12 fin water pump does something different than the 6 fin. ;)
Because you can -hear- the 12 finned sucker. :)

Alvin in AZ

 

Hi Alvin,

Thanks for the tip on the water pump. Now that winter is here and it's very cold in San Diego (Down in the 50s for crying out loud) my problems no as apparent. I also can't help but wonder if th enew engine has something to do with mine. But the original post was for a guy with a 6 year old engine. If it continues to be warm next spring, I'll try your flow cooler pump.

Contrary to what Bear said, there ARE other ways that the coolant flow can be too slow to cool adequately. Even though I may have implied (said) it was not spending enough time in the radiator, what I should have said was there wasn't a correct rate of coolant flow either through the engine or radiator. This can be caused by external coolong exchange problems - like not enough cooling air flowing through the radiator at low rpm ie get a shroud (which both I and the original poster had said we had) or an internal flow problem. These can be either a flow restriction, or an "in efficiency" in the flow. I have seen so many different impeller types in these water pumps from cast to stamped, I can't help but think it could be a factor. Also, if your pumpis spinning too fast, it will cavitate (generate air bubbles) and loose it's circulating efficiency. That's why I suggested the pulley diameter check.

As far as gauges and sending units go I think it should be fairly obvious to anyone with any mechanical logic that you have to use the correct sending unit with your gauge and it has to be of the correct voltage (ie 12 or 5 volt). Bear, the gauge on my truck is mechanical and has no sending unit. And the gauge was calibrated before installation and is within 5 dgf correct. And it was done with a complex mechanical device called a thermometer (which is accurate to 1/10 of a dgf). Lastly, the heater core is new as are all the hoses. Air is a very poor insulator or absorbant medium. If th eheater core is running at 160 DGF then the air blowing out of it may reash 110 dgf. The water you take a shower in in the morning, or is in your hot tub is around 103 dgf. When you are slow blowing (as the original 51 Fresh Aire Heaters blew) air that is only 110dgf into a cockpit that is only 32 dgf it's going to take a little while to heat up, especially since I havent put the door seals or fire wall hole plugs on it yet. It just runs cool at speed and warm in traffic. And I'm sure that either air or coolant flow is the problem as slow speed.

 

This reads like a A.D.D. story, reread what Bear posted if you can.

 

Not an ADD problem at all. I reread what bear had to say for a third time and here is the summation of my thoughts a little more brielfy. First: both me and the other writer stated we were running shrouds - not a factor, RTFQ! Second, when replying about coolant duration in the radiator or engine, Bear was flat out wrong, there are a lot of factors that can impact it. Third, mixing a gauge with the wrong sending unit is pretty lacking. Anyone who does that probably shouldn't be working on their car in the first place. And to suggest that your truck is climbing in temperature and spewing coolant all over the ground when you come to a signal is a problem with your temperature sending unit is equally rediculous. Lastly, when people ask for help in these forums they are looking for experience with a similar problem that someone else has fixed or prudent technical advice. Not "go buy an infra red temperature sensing gun" I'm sure all that coolant on the ground at the traffic signal is there simply because it's your imagination, you have A.D.D. and are a moron for reading you gauges, you're to stupid to install the righ sending unit on your engine, or you have a overheating simply because you don't have and use a "Bob Bitchen" super deluxe gizmo infrared temperature sending gun. Oh Beemer! How did we live without those back in 1951? 6/32 x 1 1/4 yourself Beemer.

 

I'm so glad you showed up and are gonna teach everyone here just how much they don't know and how large your ego is. Cause the guys here have never helped anyone solve anything before. Maybe I should rephrase for you alone. The correct shroud. OK that make you happy? The only moron on this thread is an expert that has all the answer, but can't fix a little old heating problem. You may be right, you are to stupid to install the right sending unit and to recognize when something new comes along that will make troubleshooting not only easier, but quicker and more efficient. Even though to my knowledge IR heat guns have been around for at least 10 years for the general public and reasonably priced and no competent shop or complete tool box is without one. But then I have only been troubleshooting engine problems for 50 years and just don't know how easy it is to miss the easy stuff. But I guess I better just retire from the forum because you know so much more than poor old me. Again, how long have you had this heating problem, smart boy?

 

OBTW for Bear!

I appreciate what you had to say, and I apologize if my response was disrespectful to you.

As anyone who works on different engines will admit, each has it's own idiosyncracies. The early 289 used to crack heads because of bad cooling in the back of the engine, etc.

When one works on an engine family like the FE for the first time as I am, I simply find that the experience of those who have done it before invaluable rather than reinventing the wheel. No one (except maybe beemer) knows everything. And what I was looking for was something that was specific to the FE family, not motor philosophy in general, or factors that were so fundamental that they have already been checked and ruled out. There seem to be so many small differences from engine to engine - recovery tanks, aluminum intake manifolds, water pump impellers, pully speeds, etc. Despite the fact that I did not agree with some of your comments from a TECHNICAL standpoint, I appreciate the fact that you were sincerely trying to help and cared enough to do so - thank you. I did not have access to the entire list of postings, just the original one, and it seems like some of the things I offered to 73 F100 had already been suggested...might be some prudence in them and I think he is taking the right approach.

The last engine I rebuilt was a Packard built Rolls-Royce V-1650-9 Merlin. You see, my other "car" is a Mustang! And I ain't talking about no Ford. I understand about instruments and gauges. But honestly, this 390 PI FE engine is a bear. And that's mostly because it evolved over the course of so many "Pollution Control Incorporations" that the documentation on them is really horrible. Try and find a timing setting on one without polution control and a mild cam...(use a vacuum gauge)
Anyway - sorry again and thanks.
Dan

 

PS. Again sorry about the attitude I've had the over heating problem for about 3 months and am still finding out about some causes - like timing. I never said I knew everything. If I thought that, I wouldn't be here. How if we get back to why we are here and lending some of that 50 years experience to offer some possible causes rather than different ways to measure the problem. I don't need to measure it with a gun or a thermometer to see the coolant spewing out the overflow. Do you have any other prudent engine advice.

 

Accepted and I also apologize for getting smart mouthed, been a rough couple of months at my house. Ahh, but the coolant gun can tell you which area is getting hot first or if the whole system is slowly failing. I have a 1984 460 that did the slow over heat thing. After much changing of things (timing, fan blades, coolant, etc.) and upgrading, I got smart and pulled out the heat gun and started checking all over the place. Every time the thermostat cycled the temp at the thermostat housing never came clear down to the temp before. Just flat not enough cooling from the radiator, the 3 core wasn't big enough. Got a 4 core and my life got easier. That's what happens when you work with marine cooling systems that always have lots of 40° to 60° water available. I had a 360 in a F250 that would overheat on long periods of idling. Fan shroud was the wrong one, on the truck when I bought it. Install the correct one and the heat problem went away. Every engine is an individual, just like people and some times the standard fixes don't so you look for the non-standard things or combos of things. All of the outboard V-4s, V-6s and V-8s all run a thermostat in each bank, sure makes troubleshooting temp issues easy. If only one bank gets hot, it ain't the water pump. But American auto manufacturers only use one thermostat so the IR temp gun helps find the hot spots. I have 3 of them now and have a cheapy small one I carry in my traveling tool kit.