Hey Ken, whats your thoughts on Bio-diesel?

 

Now that is something I agree with. The higher "octane" rating of ethanol (although it really doesn't contain octane) allows for increased compression and a lot more timing. When I run a smaller pulley on my supercharger I can really bump up the timing with E85 and get a load of power but with a significant mileage loss. Problem is my fuel pump is beyond maxed out with E85 and my daily boost pulley so I actually end up with less power. I'm planning to go to a dual pump setup this winter and will be able to run an E85 tune with the larger boost pulley if I'm willing to give up some mileage. But, my truck isn't Flex Fuel so I'd reserve it for rare occasions such as the track because of its corrosive properties.

Not in one single source. Some studies are from a tailpipe point of view only, some are from a production point of view only. I've got tons of links to sources, but they need to be organized and distilled (sorry, bad pun) into something small and meaningful because some of them are very long reads that'll put even accountants to sleep. If I spend too much more time on the forums tonight my wife is going to read me the riot act, so I'll try to remember to put together something this week.

Here's the thing, I'm not against ethanol. I'm against ethanol subsidies and the way its produced. If cheaper energy, energy independence from the Opec nations and cleaner emissions were really the goal corn wouldn't be the crop to do it with, ethanol imports would not be restricted and the production facilities would have much stricter shrubbing requirements. Ethanol is a possible solution, but not from corn and certainly not from protectionist policies.

 

Fuel cell technology is about to see major changes in the next couple of years to things like.... believe it or not, cell phones, laptops, PDAs, iPods, etc. Fed approval for butane powered miniature fuel cells has been made! A butane powered fuel cell, using 1/2 the weight of butane as a similar battery for the device, can power that device for days, sometimes weeks. Imaging a cell phone or PDA that went weeks between charges or a laptop with a battery that lasts days instead of hours. Mass production on these small scale devices is going to drive down costs, increase innovation, etc. Its only a short matter of time before we see ethanol or gasoline fuel cells in battery powered cars, once the economics kick in. Look at what the economics of small color LCD screens has done for big screen TVs, they are dropping in price by 50% each year (except this past year because the value of the dollar has dropped). The expected time to market for these miniture butane fuel cells is about 1 year.

There's a good chance if fuel cells like this become common the ethanol folks are going to be a thing of the past, because we could use our existing US based petroleum to power vehicles which could get a couple hundred MPG or more via fuel cells (there are fuel cell vehicles using existing technology which get between 60-140 mpg). It all depends on how fast they phase into the market and how fast people abandon internal combustion.

 

Good question.

Let me first start off by saying that I really hope I'm wrong on the whole ethanol thing. Seriously, nothing would please me more if it were a viable solution, but my research hasn't led me in that direction. Should I come across data that proves me wrong I'll man up and admit it. If the American farmer can profit from this without subsidies and it is a true path to energy independence that would be a great thing. I think if government got out of the way, and farmers could more easily compete (and that includes barriers to easy co-ops) they could get more for their crops and still deliver the goods to the American consumers for less. The problem is that the current subsidy program and other barriers are so entrenched that its not an easily reversed trend. Just imagine how much bigger their markets could be if the USA government spend its time fighting against export barriers instead of fighting for import barriers! As long as they continue to fight for import barriers its really hard for them to convince other countries not to fight against American farm product imports.

Now... on to bio-diesel.

I'll admit up front that I haven't studied this issue nearly as much as I have ethanol because the bulk of my family's fuel consumption isn't diesel (I own a 2004 Powerstroke but don't put many miles on it).

Here is the information I know of, and it may turn out to be wrong depending on what I learn in the future. Because I haven't done a lot of homework on this issue I'll reference others who have:

Biodiesel Emissions

It appears there are slightly more NOx and CO2 emissions, depending on the type (soy, animal fats, rapeseed, etc.) but its only a very small amount. Sulfur emissions essentially drops to zero. The BTU content of various biodiesels is slightly lower than conventional diesel but its lower than a similar comparison with ethanol verses gas (about 10% verses 30%+). Since the bulk of diesels are turbo-charged (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) I'm not sure this actually translates to worse MPG. Fleet data I've seen doesn't show a loss.

Here's a government report with some supporting data, but its a very long and boring read:

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy07osti/40554.pdf


Source emissions, bio-diesel doesn't require the fermentation process (which contributes heavily to emissions) so that's a huge plus. A negative though is it requires ethanol, methanol or another alcohol in its production, but to be fair and honest I don't have data showing the emissions impact of this.

Palm oil currently gets one of the best yields, beating out even rape seed oil production. The ratio of energy input to output in for rape seed oil is between 1:12.5 and 1:16.5 so there is a positive net effect but its only 12.5 to 16.5%. With other oils the energy input to output efficiency is much greater:

Algae: 2763 dm3
Hemp: 1535 dm3
Chinese tallow: 772 dm3
Palm oil: 780 - 1490 dm3
Coconut: 353 dm3
Rapeseed: 157 dm3
Soy: 76-161 dm3
Peanut: 138 dm3
Sunflower: 126 dm3

DM3 = cubic liters of biodiesel per hectare. Just imagine the yields if full scale hemp production was allowed!

I haven't studied the environmental impact of fertilizer, insecticide, run off, water usage and herbicide, so I'll remain on the sidelines with that issue. I do know, however, that crops like hemp are highly efficient when it comes to these.

About transporting, storage and use: biodiesel is slightly more corrosive than diesel. It has an impact Buna and Nitrile seals, which should be replaced with Teflon and Viton especially when running more then B10 or B20. Fuel aging and oxidation is slightly higher than diesel, resulting in more acids being formed if its stored for a long time (unlike ethanol, this isn't an issue if the fuel is used, oxidation doesn't start eating metals on contact, the biodiesel fuel takes time to start breaking down).

Biodiesel is not compatible with tanks and lines made of brass, bronze, copper, lead, tin or zinc. It can cause higher sediment formation. That needs to be considered, depending on what its going into, and better filtration (or changing filters more often) is required.

Storage in standard tanks (not made of the metals above) isn't a problem so long as the fuel is used and replensed so oxidation of the fuel doesn't occur. Usually the only thing that makes biodiesel corrosive in standard tanks is water in the fuel but that can happen with standard diesel as well.

I haven't seen any data on transportation through standard pipelines but I don't believe it can't be done. The only factor (I need to find out) I'm unsure about is compatibility with whatever else is moved through the lines. Pipelines move liquids of various types through in stages. The lines are usually never "empty". Gas will flow in a batch follow by another petrolium product, followed by another etc. There is a slight amount of mixing where two types meet and this is generally pulled out for other uses. How biodiesel may impact this or if it does... I don't know.

Biodiesel seems (and again I'll note I haven't fully studied it) to be a much more viable alternative to corn based ethanol (or any ethanol for that matter). It won't impact most consumers directly since the size of our diesel fleet is much smaller than gasoline fleet, but there are indirect benefits since farmers use it, trucks transporting goods use it, etc.

I'm also not sure how farm subsidies impact it, and how much, so I can't judge the economy of that, and can only go by the crop input to output economy numbers I've seen.

 

I really like the fact that pretty much any one can make bio diesel if they get the
ingredients. Actually I've heard of people getting better mileage out of bio, and I've
heard the engine runs a bit better. I have no facts but ask around on the Bio diesel
forum here on FTE.

 

I guess a lot of it depends on what the source is for the fuel, as to their economy.

All different types of oils available. Plus there is biodiesel, WVO and biodiesel from WVO (which has different properties than 1st source biodiesel). As to running better, all the information I've seen shows it has better lubricating properties. I'd imagine that's good for the injectors. I've run both B20 and B100 in my truck, it seems to like B20 better but honestly it was so long between each that I can't give a fair comparison.

 

I personally vote for the hemp!!!

 

Are you still running E85 on regular basis in the F150? How Many miles on E85 so far?

Our price spread sucks right now only .20 less than E10.

 

I have about 87,000 miles on now with over 50,000 on e-85, or a 50/50 blend which I run in the winter for easier starting. I have had no issues, still have the original fuel pump, sending unit, lines, injectors ect...and they are all stock. Right now in Northern Indiana, regular gas and e-85 are both $1.59. Which is ok because I use my "Polish Premium" 50/50 blend which gives me a 94 octane rating which still allows me to use my #2 position on my Diablo chip which is for 93 octane and it saves me about 30 cents a gallon over premium which is about 20% savings and a mileage loss of only about 5-7%, so it is still positve. Plus I have a half of a tank fuel line de-icer!!! I now use a 20% blend in my 66 Jeep with a high compression Kaiser 230 OHC engine, and it runs great over regular 87 octane-no knock now. Merry Christmas everyone!!!

 

Ken, I wish I had the time to do more work on combating your statements, however, I don't. Thanks, however, for keeping me on my toes and causing me to think.

I do have to say, however, that the American farmer cannot stand on his own two feet. Why? Government intervention. It truly is a lose-lose situation, as the government creates large amounts of red-tape that farmers must jump through to produce food. From chemical issues to fertilizer and manure issues, the government is in every facet of Ag production. Now they are considering charging cow farmers $75 bucks a cow to pay for the damage a cow fart causes to the environment.

What does that have to do with standing on our own two feet? Mexico, and third world producers do what ever they want. They have cheaper chemicals that are more damaging to the environment, however, as long as the U.S. is buying it, they spray it to protect it. They over fertilize it to over produce it. If you think our border inspectors are too good to let that stuff by, go meet them. Incompetence runs amuck on our borders. Having spent 5 years of my life working farms in CA, I can tell you how bad the government agencies are.

The government is a huge problem in Ag today. From both sides. You and I will agree to disagree. I will continue to burn E85 in all of my cars, and you can continue to avoid it. Either way, I enjoyed reading your comments and will review them further as I have time.

 

We agree more than you may think. I think government ought to get out of both sides of agriculture production. Cut red tape while still having regulations (and enforce those standards for imported goods) and get out of the subsidy equation. Make it easier for farms to co-op. And, if they enforce standards for imported goods, then all barriers to both imports and exports should be removed.

The government creates a problem... and what do people want to fix it? More government! That's bass ackwards! Get them out!

FYI, the national cost spread between E85 and gas is now about 5%, not even enough to make up the fuel economy difference. You see, folks in the corn belt don't see the huge transportation costs the rest of the nation incurrs getting ethanol to the pump plus they have additional state subsidies. No wonder their view generally isn't shared by the rest of the nation!

 

YouTube - Myth: Corn Ethanol is Great
YouTube - Pitfalls of Ethanol Fuel
YouTube - Deadly Brew - The Human Toll of Ethanol
YouTube - Michael Bloomberg-Ethanol
The Clean Energy Scam - TIME
Bloomberg.com: Bloomberg Columnists
Energy Tribune - Bills Come Due On the Ethanol Scam
Mad Money: Texas Gov Calls Ethanol Mandate a 'Scam' - Mad Cap Recap - CNBC.com
CropChoice.com News
The Ethanol Scam: One of America's Biggest Political Boondoggles : Rolling Stone
Corn, Incorporated: The Ethanol Scam
Huntington News
Coop's Corner Podcast: Deconstructing the corn ethanol scam ||| CNET News.com
There Is No Ethanol Revolution in Brazil by Andre Kenji de Sousa

 

The whole ethanol argument is a joke anyway. Petroleum figures into the whole proccess from fertilizer and pesticides to the fermentation and distillation, all made possible by the use of petroleum, you are better of with an extremely fuel efficient vehicle.

 

The best fuel there is comes from a natural source. Deep from the ground. Its a nice clean fuel, and doesn't hurt a thing.
Just look at how the ones that say it is so bad, use it more than most of us do. Take for instance the presidents plane, and then there are all his movie star type supporters that climb into a gallon a second jet aircraft and fly all over the place with out one worrry of pollution or wasting fuel. How much alcohol is added to jet fuel? And why not?
Alcohol is not an effcient fuel. Just talk to any alcohol burning race car owner.
Yeah you can tune for its use, but you have to burn a bunch more of it to produce equivalent power.

 

Ethanol just isn't the answer. Once you take away all of the petroleum used in the making of ethanol and the government subsidies, state and federal, the cost of ethanol skyrockets. There just have to be other sources of energy found. Ethanol is expensive right now because the highest cost is liquor tax, the second highest cost is proccessing.
Ethanol fuel producers avoid the tax by "denaturing" the alchohol normally by adding methanol, and there is no easy way of "renaturing" denatured alchohol it is toxic and filtering it through bread and other tricks won't work and by the time you do remove it you could have bought everclear for less.
You still hear of legal ethanol distillers getting popped now and again for bootlegging some have found that selling pure ethanol out the back door can make you some quick bucks.