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  #31  
Old 03-20-2005, 11:06 AM
grclark351 grclark351 is offline
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as far as "it worth all the labor, parts and risk "is it going to work" to get an extra 20 cubes?" goes, this seems like a limited production concept. that is that not a whole lot of guys are going to lay out the dough for such an animal, but there's always at least 1 that'll give it a try and hopefully make it work! i wonder if it's possible to install head studs coming from the bottom of the water jacket area of the block? Matts72 has a block that's already terminally cracked, maybe he can disect it to see if there's any meat to sink into down there?
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  #32  
Old 03-20-2005, 05:50 PM
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I took the block down to the recyclers, sorry. I didn't even think about cutting it open. I do have two other blocks though, they're not rebuldable by my standards, but they could be sleeved, I think.

I'll call my machinist and see if the next time he has his boring machine set up for 4" bore, if he can bore one hole out as far as it will go and still be appropriate to sleeve.
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  #33  
Old 03-20-2005, 09:37 PM
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never thought of the integrity of the deck. I will have too look into that. Thanx
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  #34  
Old 03-25-2005, 05:07 AM
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Just a little curious as to how this is going?

An idea came to me.
What if you Hard Block the entire water jacket, all the way up, and then drill your own water passages halfway down the block? I seem to remember reading about Ernie Elliott doing this to Bill's plate motor's in the mid-eighties, but when redrilling, he actually changed the angle of the passage to promote better cooling of the top of the cylinder, which is where it's truly needed. I'll continue to check on the info pertaining to this, just wanted to get this going again.


Also, I've found that the M-Block's deck thickness is actually thicker than that of the 351 Cleveland, which in this case, would help promote sealing.

Upon second thought, maybe the full hard block isn't such a great idea. How about Hard Blcok to the Bottom of the water pump holes, and then use head and main studs to help reduce additional stresses to the block?
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  #35  
Old 03-26-2005, 01:36 AM
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I've been thinking and I don't understand the .005 between the cylinder sleeves. I been calculating using a 3/32nds thick sleeves with a starting bore of 4.094 finished to 4.130 bore. Leaves by my calculations about about .1425 between the bores. Thats .040 more than a 4.125 sleeved sbc and the headbolts are further from the bore also.( being 4 instead of 5per cyl.) I think it will work. Saving the money to try it as we speak, but it will take awhile.Thanx
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  #36  
Old 03-26-2005, 08:28 AM
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A cylinder wall must be a min. of .100-.125 thick. A 3/32 sleeve is already to thin. Here's my calculationc.

4.125 finished bore + 1/8" wall sleeve = 4.375" OD. they have a bore spacing of 4.380" ( I think, I am not at the shop to look up such specs)
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  #37  
Old 03-26-2005, 06:19 PM
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You have to double the sleeve thickness (2 sleeves) and account for the .005 left between the sleeves which is .09325x2= .1865+.005 = .187

4.38-.187= 4.1930

4.193-4.155=.038

.187+.038=.225

I get a remaining wall thickness, with a 4.155 bore, of .225 inch, amost double what you say is needed. Feel free to tell me what I'm doing wrong.
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  #38  
Old 03-26-2005, 08:36 PM
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First it looks like your using a 3/32 sleeve. (.09375) If you are going to use a sleeve and it is unsupported (no old cylinder left over) you must use a 1/8 wall sleeve.

According to your calculations you have a sleeve larger than what you started with. I am not sure why you added the .038.

Try this:

4.380" center of 2 cylinder bores.

Minus the sleeve wall. Remember must be .125" (2 times) 4.380 - .250 = 4.130.

now minus the bore size 4.125. 4.130-4.125= .005. Hence my .005 gap.
I think this is the way you started your calculation.

or look at this way. If you buy a sleeve for a 4.125" bore, 1/8" wall, the sleeve OD will mic. 4.375. Now put 2 of those side by side.
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  #39  
Old 03-26-2005, 11:12 PM
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I believe your calculations are demonstrating what would happen if we bored it to 4.25 inches.


If the wall of the sleeve is .125, and you bore the engine .155 over, you devide the .155 by 2 and subtract that from .125 to get the remaining wall thickness. Remember when overboring, you only remove 1/2 of the total material from each side of the cylinder.

So to get remaining wall thickness .155/2= .07525 (amount removed from each side of the sleeve) so now, the equation becomes .125 (sleeve wall) - .07525 = .04975 now, double this(for two, opposing cylinders) .09950, and add the .005 back in(the remaining wall thickness from a .375 overbore(required to fit an 1/8 wall, 4.125 bore sleeve) and we have a wall thickness of .1045, between cylinders. Hardblock is already filling whatever void that coreshift would have eliminated at the bottom, and most stressed part of the bore, and all we would have to be concerned about up top is a little more heat than a block that's coreshift was so bad, that it could not have been overbored to .030.

My calculations were screwed the first time, as I had dinner calling from upstairs, but this time, I'm dead sure of my math.

I think I meant what you meant, only I didn't think it through.

Again, no disrespect, just trying to learn and share my opinion
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  #40  
Old 03-26-2005, 11:52 PM
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I am guessing that you are using a sleeve that is a 4" ID witn an 1/8" wall. That is why you want to bore .155?

"the equation becomes .125 (sleeve wall) - .07525 = .04975 now"

.04975 is your remaining wall thickness?

No disrespect taken!!
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  #41  
Old 03-27-2005, 12:56 AM
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Wow, I screwed that up. I started using a 4.125" bore sleeve, and bored it an ADDITIONAL .155, for a total of 4.280 inch bore. That wouldn't work. SO, I'll try one more time:

4.125" bore, 1/8 inch wall = Total bore of 4.375"

Now, from the .125" wall, I remove .015" (1/2 of .030, or a total bore of 4.155") I have a remaining wall thickness of .250"-.030"= .220 for two cylinders, or .110" for one cylinder. I get it now, I was just thinking too damn hard.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention, Tim. Now if I could just figure out how to sleep, I'd be great.
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  #42  
Old 03-27-2005, 01:56 AM
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Red face

Let me do some calcs using a 1/8" sleeve. Again a BBC 396 sleeve starts at 4.094 and can be bored out to 4.130 to use 428 fe pistons. So of the top of my head, 4.125-4.094=.031more spacing between bores. So 4.125+.250(thickness of sleeve on each side of bore)=4.375-4.38=.005 for a sleeve starting at 4.125.
Now a 396BBC sleeve 4.094+.250=4.344-4.38=.036 between the bores.
SBC 4.125+.250=4.375-4.4?=.025. So we gain .036-.025=.011 more than a SBC, wich this kind of sleeving is often done. They key is using a 396BBC sleeve or a 390 ford sleeve, then overboring to get the desired bore. If I remember correctly a stock 400 head gasket has a bore of 4.1 so a 390 sleeve(4.05 bored .040 over to 4.09) would work, and a 400 copper head gasket has a bore of 4.155 so a 396BBC sleeve 4.094 overbored .036 to 4.130 would work. 390+.040 pistons for the 390 sleeve(420ci) and 428standard fe pistons for the 396BBC sleeves(428ci). All the info I have gleened says sleeves can safely be overbored .060, but than again I was informed that a 3/32 sleeve could be used even if the block was machined into the water jackets. Still 1/8 or .125 sleeves are only taking up .03125x2 or .0625 more than a 3/32 or .09375 sleeve. I believe a 400 block with 4.38 bore spacing has the room for the extra .0625 of the 1/8 sleeves. The only way to know for sure is to try it.

P.S. forgive me if my calcs are off, I was pulling this of the top of my head(measurments, that is)
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  #43  
Old 03-29-2005, 01:54 AM
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Talked to a machinist friend of mine today, and he didn't even laugh at this. He shot me the price of $100 a hole, plus $30 a sleeve. $1040+ additional prep(line hone, deck block, bore cylinders after sleeving, etc.) will put the price around $2000. I just need the money, and I'm off to the machinist!
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  #44  
Old 03-29-2005, 09:44 PM
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wow $2000! Paying the same for the sleeves and the bore but can get the rest alot cheaper(if my memory holds correctly). Yet $2000 isn't to bad considering it takes $800 more for a dart block than add the machining on top of that. Thats for a weezer though and I don't know anyone yet with a hogged out 400, YET! If you get it done before I can scrape up the dough let us know how it goes! Might be the engine I put in my new 77 pinto. Could you imagine a 428ci 400 in a car that weighs 2000lbs. ( stripped with cage ect, not stock) it will be hard to hook up and put the power to the ground. Good luck!
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Old 03-30-2005, 06:17 PM
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Well, I ballparked the rest, but I figure @ $60 an hour for labor, plus the line bore($120) and the cam tunnel bore and misc. machining and parts for roller cam bearings($600), I'm fairly close, I figure. I'll get the prices for main studs(may even consider Billet 4 Bolt caps?) and head studs, and get back to you on it. The project here is at least a couple months off, so we could make it a race to see whose is done first and makes more power.
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Old 03-30-2005, 06:17 PM
 
 
 
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