v10 ford vs 8.1 chevy ?
#46
01-20-2005, 10:40 AM
v10klzz71s,
I don't doubt that it will get up on plane and go. And to get something like that on plane, yes you need that torque to get it moving. I'm sure that thing has got some serious weight to push too. My '88 Starcraft 2101, on the other hand, had the 4.3 and a 14.5 x 17 prop and would run 45 - 46 WOT, but it weighed much less and had less water to move.
And I'll agree with krewat that the main reason is most likely cost and parts availability. A chevy small block is dime a dozen, the basic design hasn't changed and they work in the marine application.
Plus, lets face it, the guy with the biggest motor in his boat has the bragging rights on the dock. That's just the male bravado kicking in.
I don't doubt that it will get up on plane and go. And to get something like that on plane, yes you need that torque to get it moving. I'm sure that thing has got some serious weight to push too. My '88 Starcraft 2101, on the other hand, had the 4.3 and a 14.5 x 17 prop and would run 45 - 46 WOT, but it weighed much less and had less water to move.
And I'll agree with krewat that the main reason is most likely cost and parts availability. A chevy small block is dime a dozen, the basic design hasn't changed and they work in the marine application.
Plus, lets face it, the guy with the biggest motor in his boat has the bragging rights on the dock. That's just the male bravado kicking in.
#47
01-20-2005, 11:04 AM
Originally Posted by krewat
One of the problems with V10's in marine applications is the aluminum heads and other parts - hard to make it run on sea-water 
And if it IS salt-water, it has to run at 140 degrees or less.
If it's a fresh-water closed system, then it's doable, but for what most people have 454's and bigger motors in, the V10 would be way too long, way too tall, and the fresh-water cooling system (and heat exchanger) would take up so much room, it would be ridiculous.
My brother-in-law is in the wholesale marine engine parts business, and Ford has basically given up the Marine market to GM. They just couldn't compete with the low-cost of the GM stuff.
Why is GM used in the marine industry almost exclusively (100%?) ? They are cheap, easy to repair, and small. Emphasis on CHEAP. Put a marine cam, brass freeze-out plugs and a double-roller timing chain (and the right oil pan) and you have the standard GM marine motor - nothing special ... need to rebuild one? Any crank-cutting shop will have plenty of GM cores - any machine shop can handle a GM motor - any junk yard has auto motors that can easily be turned into marine motors...
And besides, marine motors are beaten to snot, most people don't maintain them changing oil/plugs/filters, etc., and you're lucky (here on Long Island with salt-water) to get 5 years from a motor - so... given those choices, a CHEAP GM motor makes a lot of sense.
As for the GM vs. Ford motor debate, well, let's just say I've never owned a Chevy, by choice... as for the 8.1 vs. the V10 - well, hands-down, the V10 is smaller, yes, but it certainly gets the job done. And I own an '01, not the 3-valve.
art k.
And if it IS salt-water, it has to run at 140 degrees or less.If it's a fresh-water closed system, then it's doable, but for what most people have 454's and bigger motors in, the V10 would be way too long, way too tall, and the fresh-water cooling system (and heat exchanger) would take up so much room, it would be ridiculous.
My brother-in-law is in the wholesale marine engine parts business, and Ford has basically given up the Marine market to GM. They just couldn't compete with the low-cost of the GM stuff.
Why is GM used in the marine industry almost exclusively (100%?) ? They are cheap, easy to repair, and small. Emphasis on CHEAP. Put a marine cam, brass freeze-out plugs and a double-roller timing chain (and the right oil pan) and you have the standard GM marine motor - nothing special ... need to rebuild one? Any crank-cutting shop will have plenty of GM cores - any machine shop can handle a GM motor - any junk yard has auto motors that can easily be turned into marine motors...
And besides, marine motors are beaten to snot, most people don't maintain them changing oil/plugs/filters, etc., and you're lucky (here on Long Island with salt-water) to get 5 years from a motor - so... given those choices, a CHEAP GM motor makes a lot of sense.
As for the GM vs. Ford motor debate, well, let's just say I've never owned a Chevy, by choice... as for the 8.1 vs. the V10 - well, hands-down, the V10 is smaller, yes, but it certainly gets the job done. And I own an '01, not the 3-valve.
art k.
And, it's my opinion only, but the 6.8 V-10 is a small block, 10 cylinders or not. It's an added-onto 5.4 small block. I don't want to open up the whole big versus small block debate again, it's just how I view the world, peace and love to you my brothers !
Ken
#48
01-20-2005, 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by ken04
The salt water on aluminum sure makes sense, and closed loop coolant systems still don't take into account the salt air, that creeps into every single little thing on a boat.
Originally Posted by ken04
And, it's my opinion only, but the 6.8 V-10 is a small block, 10 cylinders or not. It's an added-onto 5.4 small block. I don't want to open up the whole big versus small block debate again, it's just how I view the world, peace and love to you my brothers ! Ken
Ken
Back to the GM/Marine thing, Ford won't bother to compete anymore. And seriously, that's been said by Ford reps to people in the marine industry - the only one of the marine "big three" I/O's (Merc, OMC, Volvo) that used Fords anytime in the last 20 years was OMC and they don't even bother anymore (and I mean I/O as inboard/outboard - not a total inboard, you can get all sorts of things in one of those). I doubt you could even find a Ford bellhousing for an OMC outdrive anymore ... although it's probably available somewhere... Now, if they came out with iron heads for the V10 or 5.4L, well...
art k.
PS: before anyone says anything, when I said "302" above, I mean all ancestors of the 302 line - 289 (had one), 260, et al
#49
01-20-2005, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by krewat
Exactly - you don't see aluminum valve or timing covers (for long) on a boat motor - unless they are painted (powder coated) very well - and even then, they rot from the inside
True, although I was going to disagree for a moment, you're right - if a 351W is still a "small block" then the 5.4L and 6.8L are also, because they are just a higher deck, like the difference between the 302 and 351W - the 302 is a small block, and so is the 351W. Using that rationale, a V12 would still be a small block
Back to the GM/Marine thing, Ford won't bother to compete anymore. And seriously, that's been said by Ford reps to people in the marine industry - the only one of the marine "big three" I/O's (Merc, OMC, Volvo) that used Fords anytime in the last 20 years was OMC and they don't even bother anymore (and I mean I/O as inboard/outboard - not a total inboard, you can get all sorts of things in one of those). I doubt you could even find a Ford bellhousing for an OMC outdrive anymore ... although it's probably available somewhere... Now, if they came out with iron heads for the V10 or 5.4L, well...
art k.
PS: before anyone says anything, when I said "302" above, I mean all ancestors of the 302 line - 289 (had one), 260, et al
True, although I was going to disagree for a moment, you're right - if a 351W is still a "small block" then the 5.4L and 6.8L are also, because they are just a higher deck, like the difference between the 302 and 351W - the 302 is a small block, and so is the 351W. Using that rationale, a V12 would still be a small block
Back to the GM/Marine thing, Ford won't bother to compete anymore. And seriously, that's been said by Ford reps to people in the marine industry - the only one of the marine "big three" I/O's (Merc, OMC, Volvo) that used Fords anytime in the last 20 years was OMC and they don't even bother anymore (and I mean I/O as inboard/outboard - not a total inboard, you can get all sorts of things in one of those). I doubt you could even find a Ford bellhousing for an OMC outdrive anymore ... although it's probably available somewhere... Now, if they came out with iron heads for the V10 or 5.4L, well...
art k.
PS: before anyone says anything, when I said "302" above, I mean all ancestors of the 302 line - 289 (had one), 260, et al
Krewat, I'm talking to a potential employer out your way, Futter Lumber, know of them ? Ken
#50
01-20-2005, 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by ken04
One of my greatest boats ever, not because it was fast, it was, sorta. It had a 4 foot bottom and it was 16 feet long, equipped with what the manufacturer called an industrial Ford. To me it looked just like a 2.3 Pinto four cylinder motor, but with a jet pump and an aluminum hull it would run an honest 35 in 4 inches of water. That speed going through rapids that are shallow enough to walk through, if you could keep from getting knocked over by the current seems fast. Mid Jet was the maker, they also had a 12 or 13 foot sled powered by a Rotax, 2 cylinder 2 stroke. For two guys, it was cool. Some of the rivers here in Ore/Wa get pretty skinny in the summer. And in the winter, they can get downright terrifying. I saw a 20' Duckworth with a 460 Ford V8 laying in a deep pool on the Deschutes. For this sort of usage, the V-10 seems perfect, especially with the way the Aussie's are putting the jet drives off the back of the transom. There's room for a V-10 easy. Twin V-10's in a 24' Duckworth, now that will wake up the river front homes where we fish.
Krewat, I'm talking to a potential employer out your way, Futter Lumber, know of them ? Ken
Krewat, I'm talking to a potential employer out your way, Futter Lumber, know of them ? Ken
Never heard of Futter - doesn't mean much though... are you talking about ON Long Island? Or just in New York?
#51
01-20-2005, 03:48 PM
#52
01-20-2005, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by krewat
Yeah, those jet boats are pretty cool - and yes, I forgot the little ole 2.3 - they are an "industrial" motor in use all over the place - I've seen 4.9L I6's used that way too.
Never heard of Futter - doesn't mean much though... are you talking about ON Long Island? Or just in New York?
Never heard of Futter - doesn't mean much though... are you talking about ON Long Island? Or just in New York?
The 4.9 I-6, my fave motor, I had it in a new 95 F-150, Mazda 5 speed. What a sweet truck. But with 3:06 gears the tow capacity was listed as "DON'T", Ken
Last edited by ken04; 01-20-2005 at 03:53 PM.
#53
01-20-2005, 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by thosetwins
The new 496's are closed cooling systems. They are not raw water cooled. Just the manifolds are... 
I tow a camping trailer with my E-350 V-10. In Wash/Ore we can't tow a trailer behind a trailer. A boat smallenough to fit on top is too small. Ken
#54
01-27-2005, 08:56 PM
Fleet Mechanic
The number one reason G.M. is so successful in marine engines is because they all have the same bell housing bolt patterns. The 3L 4 cylinder forklift engine they sell to Mercury Marine, the 4.3l V-6, all the small blocks, and the 7.4 and 8.1, ALL of them bolt up the same. That's a neat little trick Ford never figured out.
#55
01-29-2005, 08:37 PM
Lot of neat little tricks Ford has not figured out, like keeping the spark plugs in their Trition Series of engines. LOL The best Ford motors I ever owned was the old 460 and how about that old 300 Six. Those were the best engines ford ever made. They just seem to run forever. They were bullet proof! I had 300 six in an old shop truck that just ran and ran. The body on the old 80 F150 was ready for the trash heap when I sold her, but that old Six could have out lasted several bodys.Best darn engine ever! If they still made a fuel injected 460 I would replace the V10 in my E450 without a blink of the eye.
They were bullet proof! I had 300 six in an old shop truck that just ran and ran. The body on the old 80 F150 was ready for the trash heap when I sold her, but that old Six could have out lasted several bodys.Best darn engine ever! If they still made a fuel injected 460 I would replace the V10 in my E450 without a blink of the eye.
#56
01-30-2005, 08:59 AM
Laughing Gas
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chino, California
Posts: 1,166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Roadrunner2
Lot of neat little tricks Ford has not figured out, like keeping the spark plugs in their Trition Series of engines. LOL The best Ford motors I ever owned was the old 460 and how about that old 300 Six. Those were the best engines ford ever made. They just seem to run forever. They were bullet proof! I had 300 six in an old shop truck that just ran and ran. The body on the old 80 F150 was ready for the trash heap when I sold her, but that old Six could have out lasted several bodys.Best darn engine ever! If they still made a fuel injected 460 I would replace the V10 in my E450 without a blink of the eye.
They were bullet proof! I had 300 six in an old shop truck that just ran and ran. The body on the old 80 F150 was ready for the trash heap when I sold her, but that old Six could have out lasted several bodys.Best darn engine ever! If they still made a fuel injected 460 I would replace the V10 in my E450 without a blink of the eye.In fact, I used to say the same thing two years ago, but after having owned two V-10's for the last two and a half years, (combined 210,000 miles trouble-free ) my mind is beginning to change.
I'll keep my V-10's, thank you. But certainly I'll remember my old 460's with great respect and fondess.
#57
01-30-2005, 07:32 PM
I bought a brand new 88 F250 4X4 with EFI and I believe it was the first year they put the EFI on the 460. It was a good truck and I pulled my 5th wheel down to Disneyland 4 or 5 times over the 7 years I owned that truck. I had the old C6 Automatic with no overdrive and that truck drank gas like it was free. We had about 100 mile range before we were looking for gas again. Prior to that I had a carberated 400 in an 81 F250 4X4 that was far better on fuel but did not have the torque. The diesels in those days were naturally aspirated dogs so if you wanted the max tow rating you went for the big block 460 gasser. Go over to dieselstop.com and there are people there who never knew folks were towing with gas before they were born. Take care, Wrench.
#58
01-30-2005, 07:40 PM
#59
01-31-2005, 08:32 AM
I may be stretching it a little, but I dare say that back in the 80's if ford-trucks.com existed, we'd be hearing all sorts of things about 460's eating rod bearings, EFI failing leaving you stranded, C6's blowing up, Dana 60's eating themselves for lunch, etc. etc. Oh, and that independant 4x4 front-end was such a good thing too, eh?
Like I've said in this (or another?) thread, I think the 100K mile tune-up interval is just too long to leave iron plugs in aluminum heads - the different expansion rates of the two different metals makes for loosening up the plugs.
Both my 4.6L modulars showed improvement changing plugs at 20-25K miles, so I think the 100K mile tune-up interval (read: marketing gimmick) is what's really causing thrown plugs (among other things like leaky heater core hose connections).
art k.
PS: The V10 has proven it's capable of going to 200K miles with proper care...
Like I've said in this (or another?) thread, I think the 100K mile tune-up interval is just too long to leave iron plugs in aluminum heads - the different expansion rates of the two different metals makes for loosening up the plugs.
Both my 4.6L modulars showed improvement changing plugs at 20-25K miles, so I think the 100K mile tune-up interval (read: marketing gimmick) is what's really causing thrown plugs (among other things like leaky heater core hose connections).
art k.
PS: The V10 has proven it's capable of going to 200K miles with proper care...
#60
01-31-2005, 08:44 AM
Krewalt,
Look only to the aircraft industry. I flew for years with engines that were made of aluminum and never had a spark plug blow out. If you check out the number of threads holding the plugs in Ford's V10 you will see there isn't much there to hold the plugs in. Just bad design by Ford. I still take the old 460 over the V10 any day of the week. Good old work horse.
Look only to the aircraft industry. I flew for years with engines that were made of aluminum and never had a spark plug blow out. If you check out the number of threads holding the plugs in Ford's V10 you will see there isn't much there to hold the plugs in. Just bad design by Ford. I still take the old 460 over the V10 any day of the week. Good old work horse.