There's some fuzz as to when 49's switched over to '50 with a different cab and different bed. My truck's got the 49 style cab (small window) and bed (stamped sides). According to MTFlat here and on other forums, 49/50 used the same 98RC/97HC prefix codes. I don't have any other info to go off of. Once upon a time I read that my truck was produced in February of 50...but I can't seem to find that bit of evidence right now. Ford's disciplined production procedures being what they were all the parts might have been made in 49 and assembled in 50, making it a 50 title. (Which is what it's titled as) Unfortunately the firewall stamp is illegible...it would probably tell the tale.

Oh, and I double checked, Glove Box, Firewall Plate, and Frame Rail all match...and the firewall plate's still got it's original rivets.

Alb,
I know your reply wasn't directly pointed my way, but FWIW I'm not saying the work isn't necessary or that it's overpriced (actually the prices you mention are right in the ball park of what I was quoted). But for an engine that was just running weak I did not anticipate it needing so much. I figured on valve seats and planing, and had a little more set aside in case I needed some valves or something. A truly rebuilt engine would be nice, but it's not in the budget unless I dump a good chunk of it on the "I'm your Master Card."

Right now I'm weighing/researching whether it would be better to get this short block 351w with rebuilt heads for $500 (and have to get cam, lifters, timing kit, dizzy, intake, oil pump, and possibly oil pan). Or if I'd be better off having my block and crank done (+/-$250) and pick up those 351w heads and put on there. Not sure what they want for just the heads, but I wouldn't have to get the intake and dizzy etc.

I'm waiting to hear back on a lead on 351 intake and pan, and have to find out what the rebuild shop with the 351w heads would want for just the heads.

Thanks for your input guys.

Jim

 

Buying "rebuilt" engine from an individual:
1. Ask to see dated receipts that detail the work done. If they don't have receipts, don't take their word for it, pay only what a used engine of unknown condition is worth. Work done more than a year ago is not "just/recently rebuilt".
2. If they have receipts, contact the shop on the receipts (or better yet visit them, the conditions in the shop and other work being done can tell you a lot about their work) and verify the work.
3. Can you hear the engine run? If so, listen for any "odd" sounds. If you aren't experienced enough, take a professional mechanic (not just a buddy who "messes around with cars") with you even if you have to pay him.
4. Check exterior of engine, it should be free of any signs of leaks. Pro rebuilders usually give the clean engine a fresh coat of paint, home builders paint over edges of gaskets and gunk in corners. Pull the intake manifold and check inside. A freshly rebuilt engine should be clean of any sludge or varnish, oil should be clean.

 

Since I'm running a little mini-build thread I thought I'd update it FWIW. Some of this info is in other threads I've started in researching things, but this will consolidate it.

First, Ax, I agree with you completely. I'm even hesitant to buy rebuilt items directly from the shop without knowing their work ahead of time or having a lot of other people's good word on their work.

As it sits I've got four options within about $400 of each other...
By order of price:

1. Buy a reman 302 long block. Pros: 3yr warranty from a widespread chain., built and ready to go, just bolt in. Cons: Unknown internals, unknown block/heads, Unknown performance, Lose my 69 block and 69 heads. Most $$
2. Rebuild my 69 302 and D0OE Heads. Pros: Known entity-My stuff, my choice of parts, my work (and potential screw ups) instead of someone elses (save for the boring/planing/grinding I can't do myself), reasonable expectation of performance. Cons: More time to get it together (I need it together and proven by July 1), more $$, never knowing what else the machine shop might come up with.
3. Get a 351w block with rebuilt bottom end and D8OE heads. Pros: Partly rebuilt already. Possibly more power. My choice of cam. Cons: Having to buy intake, dizzy, etc. makes it just about $75 cheaper than rebuilding the 302. Low compression heads might make for no more or even a little less power than the 69 302. Heavier motor & rotating assembly probably means less mpg. Unknown entity, unknown what might pop up that isn't as compatible as first thought.
4. Rebuild my 69 302 block (bored 20 or 30 over) and put the D8OE heads on it. Pros: Cheapest. The block and crank work are cheapest. The heads are even cheaper and already rebuilt. Don't need to worry about 351 intake, dizzy, etc. Cons: Shop time and rebuild time. Crap for compression ratio w/o dumping more money in, making it as or more expensive than the preceding options.

The good news is I've lined up a little side work that will help fund this project, so looking over the options, I think #2 is my best bet. I'll know what I have inside and out and the kit I'm looking at from MPC in Sioux City will get me flat pistons, a 280/290 adv duration .448/.472 lift 112 lobe center cam, and with it bored 20 over I should have a nice little power plant to fit my goal. It won't roast tires or win drag races, but that's not the objective.

Thoughts? Input? Scoffing?

Peace,
Jim

 

Jim,
I am in agreement with you on rebuilding your engine. I too like doing it myself (I used to do it for a living at a speed shop) and you get bragging rights when all goes right. I have bought parts from Northern Auto Parts (?) in Sioux City, they had great prices when I bought from them, if they are even still open. Like I told you in the PM I sent earlier in the week you are in my home town and I will be there for Memorial weekend, if you have a machined block and parts I can help you assemble it when I am there, (if it's not done already) it only takes a few hours to do it right.

 

So how did the shaft measure? I would suspect most shops are going to give a price to include a regrind when all that may be needed is a polish. And what about the bores? HOw much taper, how much ridge? Just something to consider, questions to ask.

 

Dave,
I just might have to take you up on that offer...if it's ready to go. Last engine I rebuilt was in my uncle's shop down in OKC area. He was on hand to make sure I didn't forget something stupid...but Le Mars is a long way from there!

Ray,
I don't know the crank measurements. They said it'd grind 10 under and be good. Taper in the cylinders was 13, 9, 8, 8, 12, 8, 12, 7. Years ago I had the needle valve on the carb stick on me on a trip from Chi-town to KC, then on to OKC. Got it fixed down there, but after that I always burned a little oil. My uncle helped me with that project and guessed it washed the rings on the #1 cylinder. That seems to be the case. They recommended boring 30 over, I think I talked them into just 20 over today. Not hot rodding it out, I don't feel a need to take out more than necessary. Maybe in another 44yrs one of my sons and his kid will want to rebuild it and will be able to go 30 over and still have a good running engine.

Now I've got brake lines to plumb, a carb to rebuild, and a clutch pedal to weld on while the machine shop does its work.

Peace,
Jim

 

Great story Jim,
I'm always shocked wth machine shop prices too. It will be worth it though and should be good to go for another 20+ years. So, basically, for less than $100 bucks a year you'll have a great running engine.

I didn't see anyone answer you questions about the differences between the 302 and 351W. From what I recall the oil pans WILL NOT interchange. The front radius of the pan where it meets the timing cover is different between the 2 engines. I don't know if the timing covers will interchange or not. The intake manifolds are also different between the two as well as the distributor driven gear and the oil pump (1/4" drive on the 302 and 5/16 drive on the 351W).

Good luck with the rebuild and the upgrades
Bobby

 

Bobby, Thanks for the info. I did dig up most of those answers through other threads and extensive reading. Heads, Dizzy, Oil pump won't switch. Everything else will, but you have to be careful of head water jacket ports vs. intake water jacket ports (when mixing 302 with 351w heads) I never did get an answer on the oil pump thing. I wonder if the mains are different sizes? The cranks are the same (or so I've been told). I've read some that said the pan would work, but if you had a 351w oil pump pick up tube it won't work...you need the tube to match the pan. At this point it's kind of a moot point, but maybe it'll help someone researching the same idea.

I was more shocked by the amount of work it needed than the prices. I'd actually budgeted enough for valve seats with a little to spare; but that only amounted to about half the quote.

Now it's a waiting game...and I suck at waiting.

Jim

 

If 30 over is a safe overbore, why not go for it? Shouldn't be any difference in price, but you will get a couple more cu in and a little more compression for free.

 

Ax,
I guess I didn't think of it that way. It makes sense to get the most power out of the money you're spending. My thought was more along the lines of leaving meat in there for the future. I haven't read any recommendations for going over 30 thousandths. Only warnings that boring too much will cause too much heat build up between cylinders. The rebuild kit has options up to 60 over, but like I said, I've only heard bad things about going past 30 over.

Haven't ordered anything yet. Will wait until the honing and grinding is actually completed.

Peace,
Jim

 

A properly rebuilt and maintained engine should easily go 100K miles. Ave driver drives ~ 10K/yr. So if your truck is used as your daily driver, the engine should not need rebuilding again for at least 10 years, if it is an occasional driver it should be good for 20 years or more. Your engine is already > 40 years old, does it really make much sense to "leave meat on the bone" for another rebuild then? Heck, who knows what we will be driving or what power plants might be available 10 - 20 + years from now. It's not inconceivable that there won't even be fuel available that will run in that 302 by then.

 

351w and 302 pans are not the same, the radis on the rear main cap is bigger on the 351.
The 351 heads could be used on your 302 as the 351 heads use 1/2 head bolts and the 302 uses 7/16 bolts, but not the outher way around unless you drill the bolt holes to 1/2 .
But you still have problems because the 351w heads have more clearance around the head bolt bosses.
Make sure that the machine shop is putting in hard seats in your heads as with todays gas you will get valve recession if you don't do this.
Also read and check on the internet about camshalf lobe failer in flat tappet camshafts and engines.
You would do better to use a late model 5.0 block and a factory roller camshaft for less problems with the camshalf ,but you also run into problems with the balancing of the engine early 28inoz balance and 50inoz on the later one 81 or newer.
Any good machine shop can help you out with this if they have the experance, we have built and installed many 5.0 engines in early mustangs and you just have to do your home work .
I don't think that your going to do your engine for less then 1200/1300.00 to do everything right.
And you assembly it yourself, good parts and machine work and theres no reason that you shouldn't get 100,000 plus miles on your engine .
If you want pm me and i will write a qoate for you and give you part numbers, sealedpower felpro melling and clevite parts are not much more if bought in a master kit.
not trying to get a sale but direction as to get the most bang for your buck.
i am building a1955 f100 with 351w aod and thrunderbird irs rear end hopes this helps

 

Jred,
I don't know where you're located, but at this point the machine shop is running full tilt. I got a call from them Monday that the block is bored, the crank was being ground ATM and the head guy was supposed to work on those yesterday. They said it should be ready to go by the end of this week/early part of next week. Apparently they had another 302 in the shop on a deadline so they threw mine in there while things were more or less set up. I HOPE they're right. I'd love to have it back as soon as possible.

They are supposed to be putting in hardened seats and hardened exhaust valves. Possibly new intake valves and springs, I don't know yet. I've reached the point of "Just do it."

FWIW; They've bored it 30 over, and I'm supposed to be getting a Cam that's 280/290, .448/.472 with 112 lobe center. From my research it's just a step up from stock and should bump up the fun factor in driving without increasing the pain at the pump (noticeably anyway).

Thanks,
Jim

 

So, Yesterday I got the call that my engine pieces were done and ready to be picked up!

Right now I don't even want to think about how far over budget I am on this. But I've got new valves, guides, springs, shims, etc.--aka almost completely rebuilt heads. And a block and crank that's ready for a load of goodies.

Unfortunately, after I got the pieces home I discovered that the shop never replaced the one bad stud on the #3 Intake. Back it went. Then last night I thought I'd pull the pistons out and get rings on them; only to discover they gave me dished pistons instead of the flat that I ordered (and were in it originally). Back they went today.

BUT--I did get SOME work done on the project and I brought some pics just for you guys!

Some goodies to paint...


How do you like my mobile paint booth? I'm sure the EPA would have no problems with this setup!


And of course this is totally up to code if any of you guys are interested in paint your whole vehicle this way.


I love blue...


So the block, the exhaust manifolds, and one head are painted. The intake was still dirty so it's soaking now and I'll hit it when I do the other head.

While I was cleaning and masking things off I found this odd stamp in front of #5. Not sure what it means. It reads 9 M 10 L. Anybody have any input on this one?


And finally; I'd taken some pics of this stamp before, but hadn't posted one yet. Anybody make any sense out of this stamp? It's on the rear intake manifold surface. I'd read somewhere that certain vehicles had the VIN stamped on the block. This doesn't really look like a VIN to me, but it seems weird.


Anyway; there's the update. Hopefully I get the other head and the correct pistons back to me soon and I can get this baby put back together. Is it too much to hope for a Memorial Day cruise!?

Peace,
Jim

 

For what it's worth, I think you made the right choice going with your own engine. I have done a lot of projects over the years buying an incomplete project (whether it be an engine, car, airplane or boat). You can sink a lot of money into parts that you don't know that you need.

I went with a 351w, but I bought a complete engine (in pieces) from a donor vehicle. I was able to get what I thought was all of the pieces and I still had to buy odds and ends....I firmly believe that I am one of Summit's favorite customers. For the record, mine came with a fresh bore, valve job on the heads, and a reground crankshaft. I had to buy cam, lifters, timing chain and gears, pistons, and an oil pump drive shaft and the lost dowels for the heads. I'd have to look at my receipts but I'm sure there were more parts. Those odds and ends were over $600 and I had to pay my local machine shop press the piston pins in for me.

With your approach, you'll crack a smile every time you hit the starter for the next 10 years!!

Dan