Cam Phaser Lockout Installed and Running Very Quite
#76
01-08-2013, 07:45 PM
I bought my 04 F150 at 67,000 miles with the typical cam phaser knock. It drove me crazy! I am an automotive machinist and engine builder by trade, so it was a constant ear sore to have my daily driver sound like it was on the verge of blowing up. With that said, I began searching the internet for answers to what was one of Ford's worst designs. Many people replaced the phasers just to have the sound come back in a short amount of time. This seemed like hoping for a solution instead of guaranteeing it. I decided to go a different rout. To make matters worse, a couple of weeks ago, I noticed a lot of noise coming from timing cover when first starting up my engine after sitting for a few hours.
After much internet research, I ordered a Cloyes timing chain set. It came with both chains, two tensioners, four guides, and a bottom gear. I also ordered the Livernois Lockout kit with a SCT tunner and new phaser bolts.
Everything arrived and looked as I expected, so I decided it was time to begin tearing into it.
The 5.4 is set back away from the radiator, so with the fan a shroud off you can really see the front of the motor. The timing cover was not that hard to get off of the truck. The valve covers were a different story.
There is enough room to stand in front of the the engine. In between the radiator and the motor, right on top of the cross-member. This helps when working on the back of the valve covers, wiring harness, coils, ETC...
As mentioned before, the valve covers were the real headache (especially the passenger side). Most of the post I have seen said that you need to discharge the AC in order to gain more clearance on the passenger side. For me, this was not an option because my air works very well and I did not want to screw with that. I was able to maneuver both valve covers off by just disconnecting and removing the coils, battery, ECU, ECU bracket, and as much of the wiring harness as possible. A helpful trick was to pull the VTC solenoids out so that they would not interfere with the valve cover removal/ replacement.
My first indication that my diagnosis was right was the loose chain on the passenger side.
This is what a broken timing chain guide looks like. I could move the chain back and forth over an inch.
Here are the broken guide prices, that I could find. My opinion is plastic should not be used inside an engine, THANKS FORD!
Next step was to pull off the phasers and install the lockouts.
The the long bolt that holds the spring is left in place and the back plate is rotated out of the way so that the lockout can be inserted. Check all of the voids to find the one that the lockout fits best. When the tightest spot is found, rotate the plate back and tighten the bolts with loctite.
I installed the new chains, guides, tensioners, and locked phasers. Timing the engine was not that difficult. The chains come pre-marked and the sprockets all have timing marks. The phasers get torqued to 30 foot pounds plus 90 degrees.
From there it's just reassembly. Reverse the dissembly process.
Last step, programming!
A custom tune was sent to my e-mail from Livernois. After getting the tune on the SCT, it was a simple procedure to program the ECU. Then the truck cranked up and ran smoother and quieter than it has since I have owned it.
I drove the truck home, about 10 miles, and had no check engine lights. I noticed no loss of power. The engine runs very Smoooooooooth.
Livernois claims a slight loss of top end power. The way I drive this truck, I probably won't even notice it. My major question at this point is how the MPGs will be affected. I won't have a good answer to that until I can get some mileage on it and do some testing. My plan is to keep the thread updated so that anyone who is looking for information on locking out cam phasers can learn from my experience.
Tell me what you think.
Andy
After much internet research, I ordered a Cloyes timing chain set. It came with both chains, two tensioners, four guides, and a bottom gear. I also ordered the Livernois Lockout kit with a SCT tunner and new phaser bolts.
Everything arrived and looked as I expected, so I decided it was time to begin tearing into it.
The 5.4 is set back away from the radiator, so with the fan a shroud off you can really see the front of the motor. The timing cover was not that hard to get off of the truck. The valve covers were a different story.
There is enough room to stand in front of the the engine. In between the radiator and the motor, right on top of the cross-member. This helps when working on the back of the valve covers, wiring harness, coils, ETC...
As mentioned before, the valve covers were the real headache (especially the passenger side). Most of the post I have seen said that you need to discharge the AC in order to gain more clearance on the passenger side. For me, this was not an option because my air works very well and I did not want to screw with that. I was able to maneuver both valve covers off by just disconnecting and removing the coils, battery, ECU, ECU bracket, and as much of the wiring harness as possible. A helpful trick was to pull the VTC solenoids out so that they would not interfere with the valve cover removal/ replacement.
My first indication that my diagnosis was right was the loose chain on the passenger side.
This is what a broken timing chain guide looks like. I could move the chain back and forth over an inch.
Here are the broken guide prices, that I could find. My opinion is plastic should not be used inside an engine, THANKS FORD!
Next step was to pull off the phasers and install the lockouts.
The the long bolt that holds the spring is left in place and the back plate is rotated out of the way so that the lockout can be inserted. Check all of the voids to find the one that the lockout fits best. When the tightest spot is found, rotate the plate back and tighten the bolts with loctite.
I installed the new chains, guides, tensioners, and locked phasers. Timing the engine was not that difficult. The chains come pre-marked and the sprockets all have timing marks. The phasers get torqued to 30 foot pounds plus 90 degrees.
From there it's just reassembly. Reverse the dissembly process.
Last step, programming!
A custom tune was sent to my e-mail from Livernois. After getting the tune on the SCT, it was a simple procedure to program the ECU. Then the truck cranked up and ran smoother and quieter than it has since I have owned it.
I drove the truck home, about 10 miles, and had no check engine lights. I noticed no loss of power. The engine runs very Smoooooooooth.
Livernois claims a slight loss of top end power. The way I drive this truck, I probably won't even notice it. My major question at this point is how the MPGs will be affected. I won't have a good answer to that until I can get some mileage on it and do some testing. My plan is to keep the thread updated so that anyone who is looking for information on locking out cam phasers can learn from my experience.
Tell me what you think.
Andy
I have an 04 with the 5.4 Owned since new and just turned 100K miles. Haven't had to do this ....yet. Just a little worried about it though. Ive kept the oil very clean all it's life and I hope that is key. MY mpg is down a bit.
#77
01-09-2013, 09:08 PM
The noise happens at idle because oil pressure is lowest at idle. My noise was happening after the engine oil was warm and the engine was idling. The chain noise was much different and very easy to distinguish, it was a loud clacking sound that came from the timing cover. When I first cranked the engine up, it would make a lot of racket. If I cut it off and immediately restarted it again, there was a significant reduction in noise. I assume this had somthing to do with the tensioner pushing out extra far and making up for the broken guides.
Andy
Andy
#78
01-10-2013, 07:24 PM
Thank God I just read your post "blueovalandy". Although we don't have the same engine, 4,6l vs 5,4l I'm experiencing exactly the same issues as you had. Even if the mechanic that I went at said otherwise (he is ready to replace my engine at $$$ cost), I'm going to pull the valve cover to see by myself if there are cam phasers in there or not, or to see if the chain guides are still in good shape. There is a place that you mention about oil screens. Where would those be located?
#79
01-11-2013, 11:10 AM
Temporarily Deactivated
#80
01-19-2013, 02:57 PM
Wow, wished I had read this post before buying a 2006 F150 Screw with 120,000 miles on it a few months ago. The engine runs fine, until I try a hard pull; then it acts like I am taking my foot on and off the gas, despite having the pedal mashed to the floor. At idle the engine makes a slight dieseling sound. I am happy with the engine, until I floor it, then it is a complete let down. After reading this, I am very disappointed with the Blue Oval engineering guys.
#81
02-06-2013, 11:32 PM
cam phaser help!
F250 2005 5.4L and am told by my Mechanic his Ford Dealer mechanic friend has told him this is what I need. Boggs down and looses power during at speed grade pulls, etc. Sometimes Engine light sometimes not.
Do I replace these damn things from FORD at $210 a piece plus 6 hours labor or go with the locks and the program changes? Best to replace chains, guides, etc, at the same time? Someone have the programmer and program to borrow and save that $400 +. Or if I can find the programmer how much is the program from Livernios??
Thanks
Ron
Do I replace these damn things from FORD at $210 a piece plus 6 hours labor or go with the locks and the program changes? Best to replace chains, guides, etc, at the same time? Someone have the programmer and program to borrow and save that $400 +. Or if I can find the programmer how much is the program from Livernios??
Thanks
Ron
#82
04-20-2013, 07:50 PM
Id just like to add that I work at a ford dealership. I always here people say they are going to jump ship and choose a different manufacturer and that is just funny to me. EVERY maker has its problems... look at other forums for GM or Dodges and they are all saying the same thing.
VVT is an amazing technology, I would never eliminate it, and its here to stay. It usually fails due to oil contamination, which can happen even with regular oil changes. Replacing the cam phasers and timing components is the fix, although the oil contaminates can easily ruin a new one. IF you do it yourself, make sure you know what your doing. Severe engine damage can result. Its relatively a simple process. To me, changing the chain on these engines is easier (but more time consuming!) than changing the leaking exhaust manifold.
I did a small write-up on my 'flopped' website about how they work. Expertswrite - Ford VVT
VVT is an amazing technology, I would never eliminate it, and its here to stay. It usually fails due to oil contamination, which can happen even with regular oil changes. Replacing the cam phasers and timing components is the fix, although the oil contaminates can easily ruin a new one. IF you do it yourself, make sure you know what your doing. Severe engine damage can result. Its relatively a simple process. To me, changing the chain on these engines is easier (but more time consuming!) than changing the leaking exhaust manifold.
I did a small write-up on my 'flopped' website about how they work. Expertswrite - Ford VVT
Last edited by brad-sc-ss; 04-21-2013 at 08:12 PM. Reason: New Info
#83
04-21-2013, 10:34 PM
Please explain what contamination you are talking about. The truck only had 67000 miles when I bought it and there was no contamination inside the valve cover, phaser, or solenoid. You have a tough arguement to make when you say that Fords VCT system is not poorly designed when so many owners are having so many problems often with low mileage at that. The phaser noise does not come from contamination but from the use of thin oils and low oil pressure. At idle, the phaser has less oil pressure to combat the loads applied by the valve springs and hold the phaser into the correct/constant position that is required. This results in the knocking sound that happens at idle. Speed the engine up, the oil pressure builds and the sound goes away. Or crank the engine when it's cold and the cold/thick oil will create more pressure causing the noise to not be there.
Bottom line is it's a bad design that may be cool in theory but causes a lot of people a lot of problems.
Andy
Bottom line is it's a bad design that may be cool in theory but causes a lot of people a lot of problems.
Andy
#84
04-21-2013, 10:37 PM
Please explain what contamination you are talking about. The truck only had 67000 miles when I bought it and there was no contamination inside the valve cover, phaser, or solenoid. You have a tough arguement to make when you say that Fords VCT system is not poorly designed when so many owners are having so many problems often with low mileage at that. The phaser noise does not come from contamination but from the use of thin oils and low oil pressure. At idle, the phaser has less oil pressure to combat the loads applied by the valve springs and hold the phaser into the correct/constant position that is required. This results in the knocking sound that happens at idle. Speed the engine up, the oil pressure builds and the sound goes away. Or crank the engine when it's cold and the cold/thick oil will create more pressure causing the noise to not be there.
Bottom line is it's a bad design that may be cool in theory but causes a lot of people a lot of problems
Andy
Bottom line is it's a bad design that may be cool in theory but causes a lot of people a lot of problems
Andy
#85
04-21-2013, 10:51 PM
#86
04-25-2013, 11:18 PM
Like I said, I tried to explain the operation of the VCT to the best of my knowledge at my website. Im always adding new things as I get time, but really I don't have any.
Ford VVT - ExpertsWrite
The second thing that I comment to your reply, is that I never said that VCT design didn't have its flaws. The contamination I was referring to is the buildup on the screens on the VCT solenoids, and failing screens causing undesirable operation of the spool valve.
I haven't actually seen the system in "action" with an actual running engine (how would you monitor that, anyway) but to my understanding is that phasers are locked by a locking pin in a default position whenever not in use, controlled by oil pressure.
Quoted directly from Ford STARS training on VCT systems..."The lock pin fits inside the locking collar and vane assembly. At start-up the pin locks the VCT assembly in the default position so that the camshaft does not move independently of the sprocket. When all the enabling conditions are met, oil pressure is fed to the base of the lock pin, which unlocks the camshaft from the phaser and VCT operation begins."
If you read my website, you will see that oil pressure has NOTHING to do with VCT phaser operation at idle. The locking pin "holds" the phaser at low RPMS. A minimum enabling condition of VCT is 800RPM i believe. If it rattles at idle, you either have a lockpin that is broken/bent/damaged, a broken phaser, a bad VCT solenoid with a stuck spool valve, or a timing chain tensioner that is not holding the desired pressure causing excessive chain slack. Tensioner failure can cause guide failure eventually... the slapping of the chain eventually cracks the plastic.
I will try to update my website as soon as I can, as more information is available or corrected.
Ford VVT - ExpertsWrite
The second thing that I comment to your reply, is that I never said that VCT design didn't have its flaws. The contamination I was referring to is the buildup on the screens on the VCT solenoids, and failing screens causing undesirable operation of the spool valve.
I haven't actually seen the system in "action" with an actual running engine (how would you monitor that, anyway) but to my understanding is that phasers are locked by a locking pin in a default position whenever not in use, controlled by oil pressure.
Quoted directly from Ford STARS training on VCT systems..."The lock pin fits inside the locking collar and vane assembly. At start-up the pin locks the VCT assembly in the default position so that the camshaft does not move independently of the sprocket. When all the enabling conditions are met, oil pressure is fed to the base of the lock pin, which unlocks the camshaft from the phaser and VCT operation begins."
If you read my website, you will see that oil pressure has NOTHING to do with VCT phaser operation at idle. The locking pin "holds" the phaser at low RPMS. A minimum enabling condition of VCT is 800RPM i believe. If it rattles at idle, you either have a lockpin that is broken/bent/damaged, a broken phaser, a bad VCT solenoid with a stuck spool valve, or a timing chain tensioner that is not holding the desired pressure causing excessive chain slack. Tensioner failure can cause guide failure eventually... the slapping of the chain eventually cracks the plastic.
I will try to update my website as soon as I can, as more information is available or corrected.
Last edited by brad-sc-ss; 04-25-2013 at 11:21 PM. Reason: Corrections
#87
04-25-2013, 11:42 PM
I'm not going to "jump ship" any time soon. I love my truck! The ride is great, the interior is great, body style looks cool. But just imagine how much better these trucks could have been with a 9" in the rear, a dana 60 up front, a NP205 t-case, and a 351 under the hood.
Andy
Andy
The super duty trucks have the dana 60, how much weight do you want to add to a half ton?
Add giant axles, old engine, then come on FTE and ask what can be done about fuel mileage
lol.
#88
04-26-2013, 10:47 PM
Upon further studying of PC/ED and the WSM, neither one specifically mention the locking pin. However, neither one mentioned ANYTHING about the internal construction of the phaser. STARS training goes into detail about the locking pin when it breaks down the internal parts of the phaser, such as the vane assembly, and return spring.
While studying the diagrams, it appears the locking pin oil feed comes from the main front camshaft bearing cap, then into the VCT solenoid housing.
The WSM goes into specific detail about removing the VCT HOUSING (where the solenoid goes into) and inspecting/cleaning that valve body. To remove the housing, you must remove the phaser.
While studying the diagrams, it appears the locking pin oil feed comes from the main front camshaft bearing cap, then into the VCT solenoid housing.
The WSM goes into specific detail about removing the VCT HOUSING (where the solenoid goes into) and inspecting/cleaning that valve body. To remove the housing, you must remove the phaser.
#89
07-06-2013, 02:01 PM
Love my truck
That's great to hear Andy. I to love my truck and will be replacing my chain and parts as well. Thank you so much for reassuring my confidence in keeping my ford
Alright, a quick MPG update...
Since installing the lockouts and fixing my timing chains/guides/and tenisoners, I have been very pleased with my truck. The performance difference is unnoticeable, it cranks exactly the same, it pulls exactly the same, and it is sooooooooooo much quieter than it has ever been since I have owned the truck. I have had no check engine lights, or any other computer/tuning problems.
As far as mileage, I have run a couple of tanks through the truck and have only noticed a slight drop in MPG. Before the lockouts (with my 2.5 level kit and 295 70 18 terra grapplers) I averaged around 13.5-14 MPG on my mostly city commute. Right now I am averaging 13-13.5 MPG. I took a trip to Charlotte last weekend and got 15 MPG while doing 80+ on the interstate.
I know the mileage is not as good as if I were driving a honda or toyota, but I love my truck. Plus now that it doesn't do all of the clacking and knocking, I am actually proud to drive it.
Andy
Since installing the lockouts and fixing my timing chains/guides/and tenisoners, I have been very pleased with my truck. The performance difference is unnoticeable, it cranks exactly the same, it pulls exactly the same, and it is sooooooooooo much quieter than it has ever been since I have owned the truck. I have had no check engine lights, or any other computer/tuning problems.
As far as mileage, I have run a couple of tanks through the truck and have only noticed a slight drop in MPG. Before the lockouts (with my 2.5 level kit and 295 70 18 terra grapplers) I averaged around 13.5-14 MPG on my mostly city commute. Right now I am averaging 13-13.5 MPG. I took a trip to Charlotte last weekend and got 15 MPG while doing 80+ on the interstate.
I know the mileage is not as good as if I were driving a honda or toyota, but I love my truck. Plus now that it doesn't do all of the clacking and knocking, I am actually proud to drive it.
Andy
#90
09-16-2013, 12:16 PM
Here We Go Again
A little up date for all who care.
About two months ago, my truck started to make a little chain rattle/slap noise right at start up after it has been sitting for awhile. Nothing to terrible at first, but knowing all of the issues with these motors I knew I was in for some trouble. Well, life has been busy and I really didn't feel like tearing back into the motor only a year and a half after replacing all of the timing components. So I just kept driving the truck as I needed to. The noise progressively got louder and lasted for a longer amount of time after start up.
Then last Thursday, on my way home, someone pulled out in front of me. I slammed on the brakes and successfully avoided an accident. I pulled off like normal, my truck seemed to be running fine, but I looked in the rear view to notice a lot of smoke billowing behind me.
So I pulled over, poped the hood, and found this...
The chain broke a hole into my driver side valve cover!!!!!!!!
The engine was still running fine, oil pressure was still good, but the chain was dumping a lot of oil out of the engine onto the manifold.
A little duct tape and I was able to drive it back home and into my shop the next day.
So my mind has gone to those stupid plastic tensioners and their stupid gaskets that blow out. But anyways, I guess I don't have any other option but to pull it apart and see what's going on.
Well, this weekend I set out to fix the truck and was surprised to find out what I saw.
Both sides had broken timing chain guides. Not the tensioner side guide but the fixed (stationary) side. Also, the driver side chain had jumped one tooth. I ordered new guides and 1999 f-150 iron tensioners from my local parts store and put it all back together. It is running great again but damn, how many times will I have to keep fixing a poorly designed engine.
I did not notice any obvious seal blow out on the old tensioner seal. Which has me asking the question, what caused the guides to break?
I can only think the chain rattle caused some whipping on the plastic guide, breaking them. But why was the chain rattling??
I'm pretty stumped and frustrated on this one. The truck is running great now, but I don't trust it.
The only good news from this project was I decided to go ahead and change my spark plugs. I'm at 101K miles now and have no idea if they have ever been changed before. My method was to turn all of the old plugs 1/2 turn, fill the plug well up with carb cleaner, wait about 20 minutes, and then take them out. All eight came out completely intact. And I didn't have to use my brand new Lesle 65600.
If any one was wondering, the 99 iron tensioners bolted right on with no modifications and seem to be working as their supposed to. They seemed to be a lot more durable than the plastic and the plunger felt a bit more stiff. Overall, the iron tensioner appears to be much higher quality than the original 3 valve POS.
As for the lockout, they are still in there and doing their job!
Wish Me Luck!!!!!!!
Andy
About two months ago, my truck started to make a little chain rattle/slap noise right at start up after it has been sitting for awhile. Nothing to terrible at first, but knowing all of the issues with these motors I knew I was in for some trouble. Well, life has been busy and I really didn't feel like tearing back into the motor only a year and a half after replacing all of the timing components. So I just kept driving the truck as I needed to. The noise progressively got louder and lasted for a longer amount of time after start up.
Then last Thursday, on my way home, someone pulled out in front of me. I slammed on the brakes and successfully avoided an accident. I pulled off like normal, my truck seemed to be running fine, but I looked in the rear view to notice a lot of smoke billowing behind me.
So I pulled over, poped the hood, and found this...
The chain broke a hole into my driver side valve cover!!!!!!!!
The engine was still running fine, oil pressure was still good, but the chain was dumping a lot of oil out of the engine onto the manifold.
A little duct tape and I was able to drive it back home and into my shop the next day.
So my mind has gone to those stupid plastic tensioners and their stupid gaskets that blow out. But anyways, I guess I don't have any other option but to pull it apart and see what's going on.
Well, this weekend I set out to fix the truck and was surprised to find out what I saw.
Both sides had broken timing chain guides.
Not the tensioner side guide but the fixed (stationary) side. Also, the driver side chain had jumped one tooth. I ordered new guides and 1999 f-150 iron tensioners from my local parts store and put it all back together. It is running great again but damn, how many times will I have to keep fixing a poorly designed engine. I did not notice any obvious seal blow out on the old tensioner seal. Which has me asking the question, what caused the guides to break?
I can only think the chain rattle caused some whipping on the plastic guide, breaking them. But why was the chain rattling??
I'm pretty stumped and frustrated on this one. The truck is running great now, but I don't trust it.
The only good news from this project was I decided to go ahead and change my spark plugs. I'm at 101K miles now and have no idea if they have ever been changed before. My method was to turn all of the old plugs 1/2 turn, fill the plug well up with carb cleaner, wait about 20 minutes, and then take them out. All eight came out completely intact. And I didn't have to use my brand new Lesle 65600.
If any one was wondering, the 99 iron tensioners bolted right on with no modifications and seem to be working as their supposed to. They seemed to be a lot more durable than the plastic and the plunger felt a bit more stiff. Overall, the iron tensioner appears to be much higher quality than the original 3 valve POS.
As for the lockout, they are still in there and doing their job!
Wish Me Luck!!!!!!!
Andy