There was an article in Diesel Power just on this subject. It was talking about diesels in 1/2 ton trucks and talked about all the different options from each truck maker. It more or less said that since Ford has the Ecoboost don't hold you breath waiting for Ford to make one unless Chevy puts its small Duramax on the market and it also said that Cummings was working on a 1/2 ton also. I did not read the whole thing, the article is in the current issue on shelves now.

 

Cummins has a 4 cylinder motor in development inside of a Nissan Titan. Apparently, it's designed to meet future regs beyond what is out now and it's doing just that.

Cummins developing four-cylinder diesel for Nissan Titan

I think unit/upgrade pricing is tied to engine complexity and manufacture rate. I mean if you look at VW, their cars are overpriced, but their diesel model is only a $3k premium. I'm wondering if similar scales can be achieved with Ford and its 4.4 going to Land Rover. I also wonder if Ford will eventually lower the diesel engine upgrade price for the 6.7 if BAE wins the contract for the HMVEE replacement since that's powered by a 6.7 scorpion diesel.

 

Not interested at all. Someone at Dodge said that a 1/2 ton exhaust system costs as much as a gas engine with transmission. Factor in higher purchase, maintenance, fuel, and repair costs for a few more mpg's doesn't make sense to me. Until someone comes up with a practical form of propulsion that's more than 30% thermal efficient, there will be no magic bullet for fuel economy imho. The current ICE is a dressed up albatross.

 

You may want to check out Ford Transit to Get Diesel for U.S. - PickupTrucks.com News

Possible 3.2 liter diesel in the new van. Maybe it will go into the F150 at some point.

 

Ford produced a 4 cyl. diesel Ranger in the mid-80's for those of us old enough to remember. It was a Japanese engine if memory serves me correctly. Not a bad engine. But it was dropped due to lack of sales. Ford also offered diesel Escorts and Tempos back then. Good engines, but poor sales. The biggest hurdle for Ford to overcome is the EPA for a diesel to be offered in anything smaller than a SD. It's mostly due to the misconception of the treehuggers that diesels are dirty and smelly. And the treehuggers have been and are spreading that false information among the public and the policy makers in Washington who are ignorant of the facts about today's diesel technonlogy. So based on that fact alone we'll never see a diesel anything smaller than a SD unless it's some other commercial vehicle. They'll probably ban diesel lawn tractors in the whole country before it's all said and done.

 

I would purchase either truck or van with that engine. Although a truck proponent, a van with seating options would work nicely too. A van offers more security for tools, more passenger options, and secure parts, storage , where a truck offers taller load capabilities.

 

This is a really tough argument these days. Gassers are lasting longer than ever with good maintenance and cost far less to operate and maintain. If one doesn't need to pull 15K then will the engine ever really pay for itself?

My 2010 Focus 2.0L gets 39-40 mpg's with 2 people in the car. It drops to 35-37 with 3 or more and luggage. A smaller diesel might get 20% better mpg's at a premium price of 15-20% of the cost of the car just for the engine not to mention fuel and maintenance and UREA refills.

 

Once upon a time (A few years ago) I would have said that a 1/2 ton diesel would be great...However, the years have not been kind to diesel (Fuel) and diesel (Engines). Diesels engines cost considerably more to build today than they did five years ago, due to the EPA over regulating everything. And ontop of that Diesel fuel cost on avarage as much or more than Premium grade Gasoline.

And Tseekins brings up a good point. Modern gas engines can have the life span of any Diesel engine when properly maintained. That used to be a big selling point for Diesels, longitivity. However with gas engines lasting longer than ever, gas price's being cheaper than Diesel, and overall cheaper inital buy in price for a gas engine vs a Diesel engine, it suddenly becomes hard to justify having a diesel engine for anything other than extra heavy towing which about the only place it excels over a similerly sized gas engine.

And honestly, if you find yourself struggling to pull something with a modern F-150 equipped with any of its four new gas engines...Then you probably shouldn't be trying to pull it with a 1/2 ton anyway and should probably consider stepping up to a 3/4 or 1-ton.

The only way I can see diesel engines being made feesable for the F-150 is if they somehow figure out way to give it a signifigant advantage over any of the gas engines currently offered. Which I personally don't see that being done with it out adding more to the already insane Price premium for a diesel engine.

 

I have a 2004 Focus with the 2.3l engine, the big one, it get's 33MPG when I'm being nice to it.

Now imagine this same car with a small 4 bangin' diesel in it, don't you think that vehicle could squeek out 50+++++ MPG's out of it with modern computerized common rail systems in it. If I can get that 40 year old truck to put out 40MPG's on all mechanical, is it then being suggested by the naysayers that Detroit's engineers are just a bunch of illiterates who can't do it, but we must rely on the Germans and Japanese to build them?

Seriously folks, the smog systems do not require Urea to comply, huge triple canister smog systems are unnecessary, and it doesn't have to be a simplistic all mechanical system to get great mileage. No special fuels, just a few simple minded engineers who are aware enough of technology and computerized timing to make it all work.

I shouldn't have to keep going back to VW as an example of what's available RIGHT NOW, that is smog compliant without all the excuses I keep reading about by posters.

This discussion is actually quite astounding to me. Never in my life have I read so many Americans with defeatist attitudes on outfitting something with a reasonably priced option.

Has everyone forgotten about the performance pages within this very own web site? How many shade tree'ers have not only upped the performance of their vehicles, but how many have done it with straight mechanical systems without the extra smoke out the back end? Oooooh suuure, it's kewl to see black clouds of ash reigning over our heads at tractor pulls, but really, most who drive their vehicles don't want or need that extra puff of black. Black only represents a waste of fuel anyway.

How many posters in this thread have waned on about "If we want diesel, just getta 20 ton truck?"

The size of the load capacity isn't the only issue. A Ranger pick up is perfectly sized for a diesel engine. Only in the States are they "perceived" as useless. Sure well all want to drive around in our sky-cabs looking down on all the other gasser peons, but do we all need those sized vehicles for 90% of what we do? Sure, some do, but mostly a small 4-6' bed is plenty to most everything.

The sales failures mentioned several times in this thread are sad too. I understand it to a certain degree. Older diesels, like the big Mercedes Sedans or the VW truck of yore, gutless smokin wonders of their times. The negative attitudes rightfully earned from those vehicles is deserved, but to offer an option of a diesel for only a year or two, then call the numbers a failure when a salesman's only desire is to get someone in a vehicle at all costs and least resistance, shoving them into a gasser- when the salesman really knows nothing of the diesel benefits is a crock. I walk onto a new car lot at least three times a year to see what's going on. I always ask to see the trucks..... they go straight to the gassers, I have to ask for a diesel option.

I currently own 5 different diesel engines, two in trucks, one in a car and two in two different boats. 6.0l, 7.3l n/a, 6cyl Mercedes, 5cyl VW Marine 165HP, and a Detroit 6-71 n/a. All have their strengths and weaknesses, but none of them would I trade for a gasser in its place. My 1990 7.3l n/a gets better fuel mileage than the wifes 2004 6 cyl Honda Pilot.... rated when new at 16MPG..... yeah right, on what day did that happen?

Two things, when did Americans say they can't do something, and when did we all become such sissies that we allow a gov't agency to control us to the point of there being an inability to manufacture something which is not only reasonable, but meets reasonable emissions standards, gets better mileage by far in same class, more reliable "still" than any gasser, and is actually fun to drive??

The crazy talk is unbelievable.

 

^^^^^ This has nothing to do with having a defeatist attitude or being a sissy. I think I made my point pretty clear. What's the sense in buying a small diesel for a $3000 upcharge, for instance that may and I mean may get 50 mpg's when I can pay nothing xtra for the 2.0L and get 39-40?

None of your diesels are new, they don't require urea refills and they aren't horribly burdened with EPA mandated crap.

You can argue your point all you want here on FTE and no one is really going to disagree that a small diesel would be awesome but let's be realistic here.

Unless you're resurrecting and old(er) engine for use in an older vehicle that will pass current emissions laws, it's just not worth the money.

Look at the ecoboost engines in the F-150's. These little sixes will work as hard as the chassis will allow them too and deliver great unloaded MPG's. I'd take a 5.0L in a minute over a diesel offering just because it's a hoss and it doesn't require all the extra maintenance.

I don't think that a small diesel is the answer, however, I believe that many would buy for the cool factor.

 

Well first of all a big part of that problum is percetion. Politicians DO NOT want small diesels in North America, they are given most of their information by uneducated tree-huggers who think diesels are dirty bad engines that do nothing more than belch smoke out. Our progressive green agenda goverment doesn't even like gas engines (which they precive to be cleaner than diesel)So what makes you think they will allow and resonable diesel in North America?

That's the whole reason Ford/GM/Mopar have not introduced diesels into their 1/2 ton trucks...I once read an article that Ford was testing out a small diesel in test mule F-150's, and with all of the over regulated crap it needed on it to pass goverment emissions standerds it took about 16 seconds to go from 0-60 and only avaraged about 20mpg, and would have cost the public a few thousand dollers in premium over the current big 6.2L gas V8, from that standpoint I can see Fords logic in not wanting to produce a small diesel for their North American market, It would not sell as their would be no real benefit to having it over any of the gas engines. You also have to remember that the F-150 has to stand up to stricter emission standerds than the F-250 and F-350.

You can go on all you want about your old 7.3L getting better mileage than you wifes V6 Pilot which I'm not denying that it probably does...I have a friend who owns a 1997 Dodge Ram 2500 with the 5.9L Cummins and he has no issue getting 25 to 26mpg on the highway...For comparison though, his dad owns a 2011 Dodge Ram 3500 with the new 6.7L Cummins and he only avarage's about 11mpg, its pathtic...Even Fords new 6.7L V8 Powerstroke diesel (which I beleive is a fine engine) doesn't achive the mileage numbers its 7.3L ancestor got, abeit the 6.7L makes twice the horsepower and torque.

I think a small 3.5L to 5.0L diesel would be awesome in the F-150 if it could be done properly...350hp or so and maybe 500lb/ft of torque and 25mpg would be perfect for the F-150...But as of right now its just a pipe dream...The only little bit of hope that the F-150 might get a diesel relys on the fact that the new Ford Transit comming to the united states will get a Eurospec 3.4L Inline 5 diesel sold over seas, so its possible Ford might branch out that engine and slap it into an F-150's engine bay.

Lastly...My 2011 Ford F-150 FX4 5.0L was cheaper to buy, have 360hp gets 22mpg on the highway and has FAR less maintence than a small diesel would. Even had Ford offered a small diesel in the new 2011 lineup, I still would have opted for the 5.0L.

As far as the American public being weak sisses who won't get off their fat asses and do anything about anything...Well I somewhat agree. Its my belife that the goverment has been overstepping their boundries for quite some time now, but people are still complacent and not willing to put forth the effort make these dumb **** politicians realize that WE CONTROL THEM...Not the other way around...Until that changes and we get up and do something about it we are all going to have eat **** and no amount of internet bitching is going to change that.

 

Okay, the new F150s tow up to the south end of SD's, and do it pretty darn good and cheaply...reasonably. If you were doing north of about 50 to 60thousand miles a year then maybe a diesel would pay for itself. The problem with putting a diesel in a F150 is everyone will slap a programmer on it and bitch til the cows come home that there diesel broke, but remove the programmer b4 they take it to the dealer. If ford made them with 200 hp then the programmers would be expected to make 100 to 150 hp minimum, and people would expect them to tow more...get a SD.and we just wont even get into the EPA thing.....the F150 is considered a car for emissions purposes and a SD is considered a truck,(over 8500GVW), in other words peeps will not be happy with the performance of their diesel F150 but wanna tow what you should be using a SD for. I could go on and on and i know others will disagree but its basically the cost verses the people that would buy it for doing what a diesel is known for.

 

Buddy of mine just leased a Mercedes GL350 with the 3.0L diesel. It has 210hp and 400ft-lbs tq and can tow up to 7,500lbs. He said the diesel was actually the least expensive option, with a 4.6L V8 coming in next at $1,000 more.

Despite being as heavy as a Crew-Cab 4x4 F150, he hasn't seen less than 20mpg with it yet in mostly suburban driving.

His previous lease, a slightly smaller ML350 SUV with the gas V6 was lucky to get 15 in the same driving conditions.

Is the diesel worth it? I couldn't tell you. However, it would be nice to have the option and be able to decide for myself like he did.

 

Kewl factor has nothing to do with it, facts are, diesels in class will outperform gassers...period!

Where in the world do you get maintenance is more on a diesel than a gasser?? Never ever been the case, certainly isn't now. That said, gassers are getting better at their maintenance issues.

Also, if you're getting 35-40 on a 2.0l, a diesel 2.0l would eeeeasily get 60MPG's with smog gear. I gave up 50MPG just to be conservative.

You're a sailor, your organization did vessel inspections, there are 1-2L marine engines that only burn 1/2 gallon of fuel and hour. At the equivalent RPM, if not higher, than it's road cousins do. As a sailor, you also know that an engine works harder at sea than on land. Sea going engines are constantly fighting to maintain stable RPM as it goes up and down swell, a car can basically coast at freeway speeds. Let's see now, 1/2 gallon/hour at 60MPH, that actually comes out to nearly 120MPG.

How about putting in one of those two year old Fiat diesel engines, you know, the 1.3L that Chevy puts into their overseas cars? You think that would work in a Ranger style truck?? That would kick the 2.0l gassers fanny in every aspect, mileage, torque, maintenance, no urea, no extra smog devices, no problems meeting EPA specs AND they're in passenger cars which have as you suggested, steeper standards than F250/350's light duty commercial trucks.

Folks, educate yourselves on diesels. The benefits can be soooo superior. I also agree that Ford screwed up when they added the types of smog systems they did. The point of diesel is strong reliable power, not choked off performance. Oddly enough, I agree with your kewl factor argument on that one. I think Ford built those trucks for the guys who just wanted to look kewl driving a super huge daily driver, the fuel economy makes no sense for a commercial driver. I'd buy an Isuzu commercial truck before I'd buy a 6.7 or 6.4l engine. It'll do the same thing, just a little slower off the line, but huuuuuge fuel consumption differences..... and yet.... EPA compliant without all the tripe or additives needed. Heeelllooooooo..... anyone home yet?

BTW- my 5 Cyl 165HP VW isn't an old engine, it is a Tier III compliant marine engine.... no extra smog devices, no Urea, no EGR's etc.

The reasoning is really out dated in the argument against.


To answer 640 CI's statements,

You are correct, the fat fannies will not leave the Simpsons unattended and are plenty happy complaining about things, yet do nothing about it. However, whining about it on FTE or elsewhere is not a lost cause. So long as the message is given regular enough, it can and does change minds.... you ever heard of things going viral on the web? Well, I may not be the kewl guy to create that message, but give the message I will at every opportunity. How do you think the greenies got their messages across over time?? Like this :

In the mean time, these guys: just kept on doing what they were doing.... and lost their freedoms and choices.

Here's a little quote for us all to ponder about freedom you may not have heard before, written over 50 years ago, but totally applicable to this discussion and others:

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -
-- C.S. Lewis

Diesel emissions regulations in California and the moral busy bodies of the Federal EPA are all based on lies generated from a State scientist who had no degree(forged) , on a report he wrote with numbers he made up(didn't even do ANY testing).... aka pulled outta his fanny.

We are all living and losing our freedoms based on lies, AND on a political side who doesn't care because it fits their end game. To not care is irresponsible.

If you don't ever want a diesel engine, that's ok. It's a "freedom" choice. It's even a "freedom" choice for Ford, GM etc to never build a diesel engine, but to make excuses or reason that aren't coherent to the argument of diesel benefits is downright weird.

The fact the rest of the world drives everything from small trucks, vans to cars on diesel, but the US makers won't see fit to offer several diesel models beyond their most profitable lines is plain old cr@p. Offering for one year a diesel model, then pulling the plug and claiming failure, when in reality there are a lot of us diesel dorks out here who will buy. But offer for one year, and most of us don't know it until several years afterwards? Take the Jeep Liberty. A diesel SUV, limited production, leases only- required turn in after lease expiration no choice to purchase, and only one year offered to the public. Only dealership family and friends owned them!! REALLY!!!?!!!?! I went to every Jeep dealership in town and begged to order one..... NOPE! All out. They were sold out within weeks of the offering. I got there months afterwards because I never heard about them until months afterwards. Instead....I settled for a Honda freakin Pilot gas-sucking buttermilk POC!

The Senior Chief is correct, I have a lot of old stuff, but I also own a 6.0 and a VW 165HP Tier III. I own all the old stuff cuz nothing else is available in new, except a freakin huge truck I don't need. I own 5 cars/trucks and three boats. It isn't affordability, it's availability!

Seriously! This diesel thing isn't that hard.

 

If I were given the choice between a Hybrid Fusion and a Diesel Fusion I would opt for the Diesel every time because it's proven technology that works and I'll never have to replace a $3000 battery. And don't get me started on how harmful it is to the environment to manufacture those lithium-ion batteries that a hybrid requires. And we're haven't even discussed disposal yet. But right now my choice is a VWtdi or a small Benz. That's where the action is for highway fuel economy and performance imo. The Japanese and American manufactures aren't even in the game for what I want in a family car.