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  #31  
Old 08-18-2011, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Lead Head View Post
There are pros and cons of each. Superchargers bolt up easy, and have instant power. They're also more consistent (and possibly easier to tune). Downsides are high cost, and pulley-swaps will only get you so far if you want more power before you need a bigger blower.

Turbos can be much cheaper (especially if you get a junkyard turbo and rebuild it), don't draw engine power, and are very easy to make big power with if wanted. Downsides are a lot more fab work, you have to figure out an oiling system, and of course there will be some turbo lag.
Very well said. Thus why I chose BLOWER.
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  #32  
Old 08-18-2011, 10:36 PM
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cool info! on both sides of the coin.

my question is what tranny's are your vehicles running. I have busted/broke many with just a well built 472, 450 hrspwr range depending on elevation? so these days I kinda build my truck to my trannys these days. interesting builds both sides of the coin. thanks for your experiences and I tend to go with simplier. I mechanic for a living and simpler is usually better in the long run. I have spent some money$$ on my c-6 to get it to live on 40" hawgs in snow country wyoming. It took 5 trys to find a good converter combination for my truck, ouch. Lessons learned! keepin old iron alive one ford at a time.
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  #33  
Old 08-18-2011, 11:00 PM
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I "was" running a jasper Monsterbox E4OD that was supposedly rated to 600hp behind a powerstroke....hahahahaha yeah right. My 460 has yet to make over about 350hp/500#ft. at the crank, and my trans puked out last week with a whopping 57,000mi. Its my daily driver, not to hard on it, and have a B&M trans cooler with thermo and electric fan- and it never ever got hot. Right now I am trying to scrape up some change to get a "real" transmission from one of the big guys like BTS or PATC. My factory E4OD had 150,000 when I swapped it out and never thought about slipping from day one.....and I abused that thing on a daily basis, and the last 20,000 of that it would creep to 250* easily. Oh and I have always run stock size tires. Good thing I havent added boost yet, this jasper would have curled its tail and got in the corner.
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  #34  
Old 08-19-2011, 12:13 AM
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Stock E4OD is plenty for the power my buddy will initially be running. He eventually wants to crank her up, at which point both the engine and transmission will be coming out to be built up. But that's a long way off.
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  #35  
Old 08-19-2011, 09:44 AM
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LOL, all I can say is...... ZF-5.... muhahahaha
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  #36  
Old 08-20-2011, 12:10 AM
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Yeah my dad's '88 had a 5 spd. I sure miss that shifter and rowing gears some times. Although it was never anywhere as strong as my '97 is, it was blast to drive
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  #37  
Old 11-15-2011, 10:06 PM
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Glad I found this thread.... I am also in Colorado and was looking for an alternative for the dead horse 460 they put in these trucks. I started pricing a 7.3 swap/full motr rebuild for modern day diesel/hp/tq numbers The cost and time it would take me to do it would be quite a bit more than a nice custom build on gasser.

I recently picked up a 460 out of a 94 and tore it to the ground, I have the heads being ported with larger valves in two weeks and have the cam on order, and may have to change due to a change in the build. We originally were looking at doing a SCAT stroker 547.... and decided to go with forced induction.

Currently the test motor is in the truck with around 100k on it. The plan is to build off the current motor(in truck) and test before dropping in the fresh built motor which will be done from the crank up. The rebuilt motor will be from a 94 460 which had 46k on it, but the #8 cylinder piston had a hole the size of a quarter blown through it... will be bored 30 over.

I was originally looking to do a supercharger and found a truck here locally for sale with a vortec kit on it, and tried to buy the setup off the fellow, but he didn't want to start parting the truck out....I have all the replacement parts he needs and was willing to pay for the stock stuff to be installed by a mechanic knowing he would probably not have my trust.

ANYWAYS NO GO

I have done quite a bit of research over the past 4 months of blower vs turbo vs stroker....460 forum has some pretty interesting stuff on the bbf turbo motors. I made my mind up on a turbo build.

I am not looking to go super extreme but plan on running mild boost and be able to run on pump gas or if need be e-85. This setup will be in my DD 96 250 Crew cab and will be used for towing on certain occasions.

Some of the main things I'm looking for:

1 Reliability (I know this is not the greatest expectation with anything with heavy mods)
2 Security when engine is under load (towing)
3 Flexibility with tuning(temp/altitude)- I am heading into the mountains quite often and live at 6000ft... tow to California and surrounding states for races as well.


I have a ton of questions for ^^^LEAD HEAD^^^ about design parameters.

First off what calculation/formula is used to get a SAFE! compression ratio with freedom to boost a bit more if wanted.

I need some Ideas on trying to spin two turbos or a single... I have a set of Doug Thorley Headers brand new in the garage y pipe and connector.... I am trying to think up a way how to mount a set of Garrets on the header flanges at the bottom of the down tubes with adapter plates. I d hate to have to trash 1000 headers. I would fab tubing from turbo back up to the intake, or have some stainless mandrel bent, instead of piecing together, once I get a final design.... sort of like SBS systems. I have access to a TIG and water jet table and do my own CAD/CAM work.

To go with an intercooler- i'd like to stay away from meth/water injection....like I said this is a DD truck now and may not be so much in the future but I'm not considering that route. The question is where? I'd rather not change out the entire front clip of the truck, but mount one under cab of the truck? What do you guys think?

System placement- I have considered the risks of running this setup at the headers end and will take in consideration to dirt/dust/and ground clearance... I'm going to try to keep it as tucked up towards the tranny tunnel and floor as I can. thought about building a chromoly boxed steel frame support for protection with a thick stainless enclosure with proper venting under the cab...sort of like a strong skid plate that protects the turbos

Exhaust- I plan on building my own simple y pipe/collector from turbos back into a turn down dump... Might fab an exhast and run it all the way back to the bumper if I have the time or care

Tranny- Banks TRANSCOMMAND- I will run the stock converter till it goes and then upgrade... Am still chewing on tranny options or solid e40's that are built correctly. In the testing stages I am not going to stomp on it at first... once we get the tuning close, and if there are tranny issues, that will be another discussion another day but for now we will see how long it holds up.




Things I have no fricking clue on yet..../

---Blow off valves? I'm a turbo newbie- I understand the purpose but do not understand how to set a certain pressure that will release the boost once the pedal is let off.... how to set pressure and timing so the motor is not being boosted momentarly while fuel flow is dropping- essentially how the hell you set the valves..and under what parameters, to not pop the motor...Is it as simple as exhaust pressure?

---- Speed density and MAF.... I have read hundreds of pages on multiple forums of the differences, and different applications for the two systems. Honestly I'd like to stay with speed density.. Why do you ask.... its not the cost of the maf conversion, but why do it? I know the stock system can not handle it but why not run a piggy back or aditional stand alone harware/sofware to do the mapping and fueling control? I really am struggling with this and would much rather putting the money for the MAF conversion towards solid piggyback hardware or the motor build rather than doing a MAF conversion and still needing additional hard/software to deal with the tuning. Why are most of these boosted ricers using speed density? A fellow in the office is pushing 600 hp to the wheels with his STI on a speed density system....I know this is not a good analogy but why are they using SD if MAF is such a great system. Honestly I'd like to know a little bit about the difference but I hate electronics with a passion and will pay to have the tuning and electronics package set up correctly.

Turbo Oiling.... Piping ideas and what will be needed- I plan on running a deeper pan anyways.

----Boost controller-gauges- turbo oil pressure gauge?????




Some things I have going for me:

---- the ol lady doesn't want me to finance a new diesel so the pockets are open on this build(as quick as the pay checks roll in at least.... I want to do it right the first time...
----- I have worked in many fab shops/welding/machining/hot rod shops and can build pretty much anything with metal or carbon fiber....fab costs are not a issue for me besides material(I'd like to stay away from any aluminum though...thin stuff is not a fun welding task)

Last edited by nossliw; 11-15-2011 at 10:14 PM. Reason: additions
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  #38  
Old 11-15-2011, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by nossliw View Post
...I recently picked up a 460 out of a 94...
I've been contemplating my own turbo build, so I've got a few of my own observances to share, but it'd probably be best if you start your own thread since this sounds like it's going to be a fairly big build.
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  #39  
Old 11-15-2011, 11:05 PM
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Man those turbo's sure are "simple" to put on.... 4 pages of questions, head scratchers, and fab later.

OR.... You can simply bolt on a supercharger kit, get it it dyno tuned, and run 15's (at 6000ft) in a 6200lb truck through 35" tires.... like I did. .......... Stock compression, stock bottom end, no tuning issues...
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  #40  
Old 11-15-2011, 11:15 PM
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ceet;

I totally understand where your coming from,and agree with you..... however you keep repeating "go buy a blower kit".... Ken Belle, Procharger and Vortec made kits for a few years for the 460 efi .... I have not seen one for sale on ebay in over 4 months. You can no longer purchase mounting plates as I have disvoered over the phone, it cost 30 bucks from PC to even get an old manual...... If there was a supercharger kit out there for the motor I could buy brand new I'd probably consider it and build a larger displacement motor using a bigger plentum.... And that is the problem.... you simply can't find these kits any more let alone new.

On the other hand let me know if you have one sitting in the garage

To be honest a supercharger would be great here in Colorado...just wish I could find one...

If you have any info on where to look shoot me a PM, a turbo setup is a bit more unique. On the internet I have found a total of 4 460 turbo setups that are published threads, so i guess its sort of a different thing to do.... the smartest maybe not simple...absolutely not. Like I said I'm new to turbos so I'm throwing all my questions out there.
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  #41  
Old 11-15-2011, 11:53 PM
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With a Moates Quarter Horse and the proper computer to go along with it, you can change all transmission parameters, including shift firmness, etc..A good hardware shift-kit will help for sure, but after a certain power level you will eventually have to build it up.

BOVs are automatic for the most part, when they sense vacuum on one side (behind the throttle valve), they open up, dumping boost to atmosphere.

The turbo on ours is just behind the cab under the bed. We're still working the kinks out of the oiling system though. Oil tends to drain down into the turbo when the trucks siting, but we believe we have a solution (just a check valve).

Wastegates are what limit your boost.

My friend has a glow-shift boost and tranny temp gauge, and an AEM WideBand O2 sensor. If you're not tuning it yourself, you can probably skip the wideband.

I don't claim to be an expert on any of this though. It's a learning experience for me and my friend as well.
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  #42  
Old 11-16-2011, 12:06 AM
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...ceet;

On the other hand let me know if you have one sitting in the garage
Man I just sold a spare Vortech kit I had, back in the summer... yeah they are hard to find!
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  #43  
Old 11-16-2011, 02:48 PM
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With a Moates Quarter Horse and the proper computer to go along with it, you can change all transmission parameters, including shift firmness, etc..A good hardware shift-kit will help for sure, but after a certain power level you will eventually have to build it up.

BOVs are automatic for the most part, when they sense vacuum on one side (behind the throttle valve), they open up, dumping boost to atmosphere.

The turbo on ours is just behind the cab under the bed. We're still working the kinks out of the oiling system though. Oil tends to drain down into the turbo when the trucks siting, but we believe we have a solution (just a check valve).

Wastegates are what limit your boost.

My friend has a glow-shift boost and tranny temp gauge, and an AEM WideBand O2 sensor. If you're not tuning it yourself, you can probably skip the wideband.

I don't claim to be an expert on any of this though. It's a learning experience for me and my friend as well.
I left you a message yesterday on your page.... not sure if you got it. If you did give me a shout on the phone when you get a chance.

Is he still having tuning drivibility issues? I noticed in all of his videos he is manually shifing quite a bit? Why so? Does he have his tuned so he can drive comfortably or does he have to taylor the driving and shifting for the turbo?

Also, is he running all stock internals on the motor? different cam?

For your turbo oiling issue... what is installing a check valve going to gain? Is the return line gravity feeding into the turbo?

If you get a chance can you guys take a few pics of your oil piping as well as you air piping...I can PM my email.

Once again I really do appreciate any help I can get

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Originally Posted by ceetwarrior View Post
Man I just sold a spare Vortech kit I had, back in the summer... yeah they are hard to find!

If you do come along one let me know

I'm starting to get a finance plan to gether for this and its adding up really quicK. Sometimes I question why not get an old 7.3..... or even the entire truck.....
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  #44  
Old 11-16-2011, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by nossliw View Post
I left you a message yesterday on your page.... not sure if you got it. If you did give me a shout on the phone when you get a chance.

Is he still having tuning drivibility issues? I noticed in all of his videos he is manually shifing quite a bit? Why so? Does he have his tuned so he can drive comfortably or does he have to taylor the driving and shifting for the turbo?
Driviability is near perfect now. Engine runs great. He's actually getting better mileage now than he was before, because with no emissions equipment to deal with, you can really lean it out during cruise/low load.

He's manually shifting simply because he likes to. No other reason really. We did change the shift firmness though, and also made 3-2 and 2-1 downshifts happen with less throttle input.
Quote:
Also, is he running all stock internals on the motor? different cam?
All stock. Only thing done is a complete emissions delete.
Quote:
For your turbo oiling issue... what is installing a check valve going to gain? Is the return line gravity feeding into the turbo?
The problem is we mounted the turbo down low, at the back of the truck, so we couldn't gravity drain. So we have a return pump, and we had issues with oil draining back down when the truck was off, so we put a check valve in. However the pressure-feed side was also slowly draining down into the turbo, so we are going to put another check valve. The check valve requires a minimum of 2 PSI to open.

If you can get the turbo into the engine bay, or at least above the oil pan, you won't have any of these issues. The closer the turbo is to the engine, the lesser the issue will be as well.

It's not a huge deal really, but it's just more or less annoying weeding out all the little glitches. A little more research on our part would have shown us that we needed the check valve from the start.
Quote:
If you get a chance can you guys take a few pics of your oil piping as well as you air piping...I can PM my email.

Once again I really do appreciate any help I can get
I'll see if I can find any pictures.
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  #45  
Old 11-17-2011, 11:23 PM
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Nossliw........... you took the words out of my mouth. I've been hunting for a kenne bel kit for a long long time, with absolutely noe leads at all. I have same as given up and decided to go the turbo route as well. I really hope all this comes together for you. I have a (almost) complete MAF kit with FEZ3 pcm for my '97 460 in the shop that has yet to be installed, and if I go turbo, I wonder now am I better off leaving it SD and going with the moates or AEM? I keep looking at those new EFR borgwarner turbos, they are bad. I was planning on taking mine to a mustang shop and having it dyno tuned when finished.........whatever year that will be.
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